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What is the absolute latest one can arrive at a minyan and it is still considered he is davening with the minyan? Similarly, what is the absolute earliest he can leave while it is still considered that he davened with a minyan?
Also, is it a bizoyan towards the tzibbur if someone arrives late to or leaves early from the minyan?
Another, somewhat distinct, question is is there any quantifiable benefit to davening slowly as opposed to davening quickly? And if so, what do you lose by davening quickly?
Rabbi Frand recently gave a shiur on Tefilla Bitzibur (it refers to shmone esrei) and what is considered Tefilla Bitzibur (it was one of the parshiyos in the latter half of sefer bereishis, you might find these shiurim online somewhere). He brought down shittos that run the gamut from, one must start shmone esrei with the tzibbur for it to count as tefilla bitzibut to the other end of the spectrum, as long as someone from the tzibur is still davening shmone esrei you can start and it is considered that you davened bitzibur and shittos in between.
I’ll leave the other questions for others.
You know the joke about when yeshiva guys daven at a baalabatishe minyan…
…They come late, leave early, and complain that davening is too fast.
From a hashkofic perspective:
How choshuv SHOULD davening be to a yid?
Compare;
To arrive late: would you arrive late if you had a plane, train, or bus to catch? would you arrive late to a family simcha? (assuming it is a close-nit family of course)
To leave early: would you leave your family chassuna early?
A bizoyan towards the tzibbur: How would your family feel if you left the chassuna early? how would your spouse/kids feel if you came home, ate supper, and left in a hurried manner?
we have to remember to view davening not as an obligation or a ‘service’ but a privilage of the highest order! For us humans to actually meet and converse with the King of Kings, and tell Him what is on your mind, request our needs, even to offer praise to Him, is an absolutely incredible opportunity and honor if you think about it. You would salvage the moments in tefilla, and bask in the delight by davening slowly and not quickly.
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What is the absolute latest one can arrive at a minyan and it is still considered he is davening with the minyan? Answer:- 5 minutes before time the Minyan is called for, so that when prayers commence, you are ready to commence with the Chazzan, already clad with Tallis & Tefillin.
If you don’t have enough Derech Eretz to arrive by beginning, don’t bother coming, because late arrivers simply disturb everyone else.
I have been at 1 Minyan in Geulah on Shabbos morning, and by Boruch She’omar {Nussach Ashkenaz} they lock the door, so no-one else can come in & disturb the decent people who were noble enough to come in a timely manner.
By the way, anyone whose cell phone rings during a Minyan, by definition, is not a decent person, as he is causing a disturbance of unbeleivable proportion to decent people.
Whether arriving late at a Minyan or having a cell phone ring during a Minyan:- it is an extremely difficult call of judgement to figure out who is more blatant & disturbing to the Mispallelim.
147: You didn’t mention the equivalent applies to those that leave early (i.e. prior to the completion of Aleinu.)
I 2nd your assertment Cheftze.
Maybe you can offer me some insight into my unresolved question in my last paragraph, now as a 3 way question:- Late Arrival? Early Departure? or cell phone disturbance?
Who taught you, how to use, aposatives?
From the OP’s questions, like what do you gain from davening slowly and not quickly or what’s the latest time you can come & earliest time you can leave, I get the impression that he’s not being genuine. But I will share a story of the Chofetz Chaim who used to go around towns selling his seforim. In one shul after shacharis a guy who had come late was ‘catching up’. Why are you saying so much davening asked the CC? I am being mashlim my chovos the guy replied. Said the CC its not kedai to have chovos by the ribono shel olam.
BTW you mentioned bizyonos towards the tzibbur… What about the bizyonos towards the RBSH”O and YOURSELF?
Latest time to arrive for Shachris is just before “Boruchu”; earliest to take off Tefilin is immediately after Ashrei U’vu Letzion.
In the Accounting World, we call these people “LIFO” Jews!
‘Latest to Arrive and Earliest to Leave Minyan’
I’d say it’s anti social.
GeshmakMan- What does ‘LIFO’ mean?
If I need to leave a minyan early, I just daven in the ezras noshim.
LIFO = Last In First Out
It’s an accounting term, or, in this case, a way of life for some mitpallelim.
Kaf hachaim says that one shouldn’t even walk towards the door until after aleinu because it looks like the davening is burden to the person. I think the same is said even if one is already outside the shul as long as he doesn’t have in mind to return.
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