Longest date

Four months, but that was in middle school.

yay.

I’ve never seen either a bright red or bright yellow date, have you?

lol pick up line:

want a grape?

girl- no

how about a date?

Nearly 36 years and counting, B”H.

Ah, you beat me too it and took my answer (although, in my case, it’s only 25 years).

The Wolf

In my opinion, if a person can’t decide whether they want to make a commitment after 10 dates, there is something wrong with the way they are looking at the shidduch process.

or with their ability to make a decision.

I don’t agree with using a specific number, though. People and situations are different.

Oomis and Wolf

Don’t you think its time to settle down?

WIY – You may be onto something. I will think about it…

If after a handful of dates you aren’t 100% positive that you want to spend the rest of your life with that person, raise a family with that person and be intimate, I don’t think that shows there is an issue with you. Rather it shows that perhaps the shiddych system is somewhat flawed.

Rather it shows that perhaps the shiddych system is somewhat flawed.

Is there a better system? Do you prefer a system which causes more issurim, has a worse (certainly no better) success rate, but the couple fools themselves into thinking they’re 100% sure?

It’s not at all about indecisiveness. It’s about the fact that people are expected to make the most important decision of their lives in a matter of days. I have a number of friends who have been dating for years but either they or the other wanted to continue and felt they needed a few more days, but of course the shidduch had to end. When did the whole shidduch system become what it was. Surely we all know that even in the frum community, years ago men and women , boys and girls, actually met each other on their own, didn’t have to necessarily go through 3 channels , shadchan mothers sisters etc to see if a date should even take place. I think that the current system treats these potential chosson and kallahs as children, and if you believe they are children, then they shouldn’t yet be married.

I will also note that more and more people I know and meet are divorced by age 23 and it shocks me every time but I am unfortunately becoming desensitized to it.

I think that what MoraRach writes has a great deal of merit, if you will stop and think about it. Dating for tachlis should not be about a specific NUMBER of dates being the magic one. It’s about getting to know someone’s character and personality, to see if they are a “good fit” for the long haul. Many kids are so obsessed with that number that they fail to look past certain externals, and make decisions that might be good for them – or might NOT.

I knew I was headed in the right direction with my future husband, after several dates, but I was certainly not ready to commit to a lifetime together at that point. I wanted to spend more time with him, meet his friends and have him meet mine, see how he interacted with them and with his family and mine,see how he reacted in different situations (like getting stuck in traffic, how he treated waiters and other service personnel, etc.) This took a little time.

We dated for three months, seeing each other frequently throughout that time, then became engaged and got married four months later. I don’t tell anyone how long they should date before making a decision, but they should certainly take longer time to decide about the rest of their lives, than they do to make a decision about what kind of car to buy. Some people take longer to be “themselves” on a date, and it is absolutely crucial to really see what a person is like when he or she is NOT trying to impress you.

Not everyone lets their “hair down” by 10 dates. Some people are really good at hiding serious character flaws, such as anger management. Some people are very shy but have shining personalities when they are in their comfort zone. That might take some time to manifest itself as well, and many good shidduchim have been lost because one of the parties lacked the social skills to be himself or herself on those first 10 dates, especially if they have experienced repeated rejection.

I think we should stop looking at numbers, and if someone sees potential in a relationship, to give it an extra shot before calling it off, just because the magic cutoff number of requisite dates have passed. Jumping into engagements and weddings, for the sake of “shoen tzeit,” makes me feel it is more about the process than the person. And I agree that this is why we are seeing many quick, young divorces.

I think that what MoraRach writes has a great deal of merit, if you will stop and think about it. Dating for tachlis should not be about a specific NUMBER of dates being the magic one.

I agree that there should be no specific number, but disagree that it should drag on for months and months. At a certain point, there’s more to lose than to gain by continuing. If someone can hide anger for ten dates, they can (and do, if necessary) hide it for twenty, thirty, forty etc. dates. No matter how many months, or even years, people date, it’s still not marriage.

Again, you hint at a higher divorce rate among the yeshivah crowd which uses shidduch dating than the more modern, who don’t, but it’s simply not true at all, to my observation.

I think you make some great points, notasheep. You also said it better than I when you called some people’s problem commitment issues rather than indecisiveness.

May you and your wife have many times that number of years together in good health, Wolf!

Amen! Thank you for that wonderful bracha Oomis. 🙂

The Wolf

I didn’t think you did, I think Oomis did (although she may not have realized it). I still think your argument needs explanation. It’s hard to blame an increasing (l”a) divorce rate on a particular style of dating when the increased rate is not only found amnng the grup with such a practice.”

Daas Yochid, I don’t believe I said that or even implied it. My children’s friends are not Yeshivish in the sense that we think of. They are more what one would call MO Machmir, and they DO date through the shidduch system. So, FTR, many of the couples with whom I am personally acquainted, who divorced after a very short marriage, are not necessarily Yeshivish, though more than a few, are. The one thing they all have in common, is a really short dating period or only a few weeks’ worth prior to becoming engaged. And one would be extremely naive or blind to refuse to acknowledge that the rate of divorce has risen mightily in the last decade among Yeshivish couples. Divorce has R”L risen among all segments of the Frum population, from the most modern to the most chareidi.

It is a sad fact, and though I do not claim to have all or even ANY of the answers and I realize that marriages can fail no matter what one does to try to prevent that from happening, I don’t think it hurts to slowly get to know a prospective chooson or kallah over the course of a few months, not mere weeks. I guess we will have to agree to respectfully disagree.

I don’t think it’s the short dating period that is to blame, rather it’s either the pressure that is put on them to make a positive decision to get engaged by a shadchan who wants to close a deal, or the couple’s unrealistic or immature expectations of marriage. The divorce rate is still far, far lower in chassidish communities where the the couple have one date just to see if they like each other and then it’s a l’chaim. That’s because they know what they are doing it for.

I think the answer is that there is no blanket answer for everyone. Some couples will be ready on the first date and others will take months. However, unless it’s to do with nerves or previous baggage, I do think it might show something about compatibility if they can’t commit even after a few weeks.

dating SHOULD be a natural relationship

It can’t be. V’hamaven yovin.

Twisted: Sorry I missed your post. That was very interesting. Thanks for posting.

oomis – in the old days there was no such thing as ‘dating’ – it was a few meetings between the couple and if they felt it was right they were engaged. The dating period didn’t “become” so short – it always was! We have somehow caught on to the modern idea that a couple has to go out for a few months to ‘find out more about each other’. In my experience, the really good, non-pushy shadchanim are the ones that end up making more successful shidduchim, which are finalised after only a few dates. The ones who want to make a shidduch and get the gelt are the ones that keep encouraging ‘one more date’ even when the couple are clear that it’s not for them.

And you never answered my question – why would you want your possible future husband to meet your friends whilst you are dating? He is not going to be socialising with them (I hope!)

sm29 – the whole point of the shidduch system and why it’s so different from ‘dating’ is that the parents find out pretty much everything beforehand. How many dates would it take until the couple decide that actually they are quite interested if they don’t really feel interested in the beginning?

Character traits like temper will only ever emerge after marriage unless you encounter a specific situation during dating that would force the person to show their true colours, since people will usually be on their best behaviour during a date