Looking For a Mamar Chazal About Cosmetics

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  • #588836

    Heshy
    Member

    Once saw a mamar chazal that explained why women need cosmetics (as opposed to men). Any of you know it’s whereabouts?

    Thanks

    #635015

    notpashut
    Member

    There is a Mahara”l about perfume, but I don’t remember it 100%.

    Is that what you meant?

    #635016

    notpashut
    Member

    Or maybe the one about Hashem dressing up Chava for Adam.

    #635017

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I didnt realize women *need* cosmetics. I certainly dont use them.

    #635020

    oomis
    Participant

    SJinNYC, believe me when I tell you some women NEED cosmetics. B”H that you don’t, but many of us could use a little help to look our best. The “natural” look is not always best, especially if one has bad skin, dark undereye circles, colorless eyelashes and brows,etc. Not everyone is a natural beauty.

    #635021

    smh1
    Member

    In R. Falk’s sefer on tzinus,page 430, it quotes gemara Shabbos 64b “a woman could require cosmetics to improve her appeal to her husband” and Kesubos 52b, “..an adult girl might need it for shidduchim purposes”. HOWEVER, he than goes on for several pages cautioning against excessive, bright, non-tzinusdik applications.

    #635022

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    In fact, there is a halacha that if a woman does not use the cosmetics which are the norm of that era, it is potentially grounds for divorce. This is in Shulchan Oruch, but do not remember the siman. It is a shalom bayis issue when a women lets her appearance go. Just as it would be for a man who refuses to bathe and get haircuts, etc.

    #635023

    Joseph
    Participant

    Of course, in the case of an Eishes Ish, it is to be used EXCLUSIVELY for her husband (as the quoted Gemora makes clear.)

    #635024

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Pashuteh Yid, does it make a difference if I never wore makeup? I’m so naturally beautiful that I dont need it LOL. On a serious note, has a divorce ever been granted for a woman not putting on makeup?

    Oomis, you dont NEED makeup, but you may want it.

    #635025

    squeak
    Participant

    On a serious note, a woman whose husband offered her a get for not wearing makeup (or for burning the cholent, etc) and she accepted it rather than putting on makeup for him, DEFINITELY is not being divorced for the makeup issue.

    #635026

    Sometimes I feel like i am painting my face, but the truth is it is really amazing how much the basic cosmetics does. I am not talking about blue eyeshadow, simple lipstick and blush, really make a difference even to the most beautiful!

    #635027

    intellegent
    Member

    sjs and oomis

    here is a simple conclusion to your argument about NEED or WANT.

    If you consider it a necessity to look nice, than according to oomis, some people NEED make up (which I agree with). If looking nice is just nice and not a necessety then you would probably WANT to wear makeup to fulfill that desire.

    I think people with natural color, even if they are not so beautiful, makeup doesn’t make a difference on them. But people who have white skin must wear foundation to look decent and they can look BEAUTIFUL with makeup but really not good without.

    Anyway, I am sounding very vain (is that how it’s spelled) and I am really not! (I have to really force myself to put on makeup…)

    #635028

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Its a Gemorah Bava Basra 22a & Bava Kama 82b that women require cosmetics to be avalible so that they should be beautiful for their husbands

    #635029

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    when the jews returned to build the second bais hamikdash, one of the things ezra made sure was that the makeup/perfume merchants would visit the far out towns. seems like it was necessary – i’m sure ezra had a lot of things on his mind but look what one of his first takanos was!

    btw Mrs. B – the pasuk in yeshaya rebukes bnos tzion for their blue eye makeup and perfume. so apparently those two are not for wearing outside.

    #635030

    yoshi
    Member

    intellegent – In the winter time, I’m as pale as a porcelain doll. Are you calling me ugly? waaaa – Jk hehehe 😉

    I didn’t wear make up for the first time until I was in my 20s! I know it sounds sad, but I’m still learning. hehehe

    For those who are married whether with or without makeup, should look nice for their husbands either way. Some husbands prefer their wives not to wear makeup. Some do. As far as single girls, most are so young and look beautiful without makeup, but for shiduchim purposes I don’t see why not. (a normal amount though, you wont be doing yourself any justice looking like a raccoon).

    I have to admit though, that I’m a sucker for lip gloss, it’ so shiny and taste yummy! (along with my blistex)

    #635031

    I dont either enjoy putting on makeup. I am way more comfortble without it. But I know that it makes a huge difference, so u gotta do what u gotta do.

    #635032

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    yoshi – lip gloss with a taste doesn’t have a hechsher. just so you know.

    #635033

    yoshi
    Member

    brooklyn19 –

    Two things. 1. I never mentioned the brand names. 2. You’re the rav of…

    Blistex IS kosher, & has a taste. – I don’t wear that for “pretty” reasons, if you had big lips in the winter, you’d understand, unless you’re incredibly lucky to not have to deal.

    p.s. Just so you know 🙂

    #635034

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    I remember reading in Morris Mandel’s coumn in Jewish Press that any possible thing a women can do to make herself more attractive should by all means be done. It is part of feeling good about oneself that one is clean and neat. It is not healthy to let oneself go. One of the first signs of mental illness or depression is when you see a person who is wearing dirty clothes and looks unkempt. One should always try to look his or her best at all times. It is part of being professional as well. Many job interviews and promotions are probably decided based more on appearance, than on actual skills. The reason is that one who pays meticulous attention to every detail of his appearance will probably pay meticulous attention to every detail of his job. One who is shlumpy about appearance will probably be shlumpy about the job. This holds true for men and women.

    #635035

    beacon
    Participant

    brooklyn19- I dont beleive there needs to be a hechsher in order to wear flavored lipgloss. Especially if your not putting it on to lick it off or eating it..

    #635036

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    really? i heard otherwise but i’m not 100% sure. could be you’re right.

    #635037

    Heshy
    Member

    I didn’t mean that they need it to look appealing to their hubbies. I meant a chazal that seems to imply that they are lacking without it.

    #635038

    noitallmr
    Participant

    Re: smh1

    Who is Rabbi Falk?

    #635039

    beacon
    Participant

    On this note I read somewhere that on average a woman eats anywhere from 17- 26 lbs of lipstick over her lifetime! I don’t know how accurate that is but that sure makes me very nauseous.

    #635040

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    ugh. then i think i WANT to make sure it’s kosher! and sounds like you got that from a snapple cap.

    #635041

    oomis
    Participant

    “On this note I read somewhere that on average a woman eats anywhere from 17- 26 lbs of lipstick over her lifetime! I don’t know how accurate that is but that sure makes me very nauseous”

    And the average person probably eats way more poundage of BUTTER over his or her lifetime. Now the thought of eating globs of plain butter makes ME nauseous!!!!! It’s all in the perspective…

    #635042

    beacon
    Participant

    True, but the thought of all that lipstick in us… Somehow when I think of that much FOOD in a person it’s not nearly as gross!

    #635043

    smh1
    Member

    noitallmr-

    “Rabbi Eliyahu Falk is an internationally renowed expert in matters of Halacha”, in Gateshead. He published a very big sefer on tzinus, including any topic you can imagine and more, called “Oz V’Hadar Levusha: Modesty, an Adornment for Life”. It is pretty much THE sefer for tzinus. (He is quite machmir, though.)

    #635045

    Ashreinu
    Participant

    ABOUT FLAVORED LIP STUFF – ASk Your OWN Rabbi. Please. YWN is wonderful, but please don’t paskin from what you find online. BTW – there is PLENTY of non-kosher junk and icky chemicals in the stuff… I’ve actually heard 2 seperate things from 2 sep rabbanim about the kashrus of this stuff.

    Ask your own. and follow what he says.

    #635046

    squeak
    Participant

    intellegent

    Member

    If you consider it a necessity to look nice, than according to oomis, some people NEED make up (which I agree with). If looking nice is just nice and not a necessety then you would probably WANT to wear makeup to fulfill that desire.

    I think people with natural color, even if they are not so beautiful, makeup doesn’t make a difference on them. But people who have white skin must wear foundation to look decent and they can look BEAUTIFUL with makeup but really not good without.

    Normally my posts on CR are very light hearted, but this type of post actually makes me pretty upset. It’s this kind of BASELESS DISPARAGING GENERALITIES that give so many fine, attractive young women a negative self image and struggles with their self-esteem. No matter how intelligent you are, not you or ANYONE else can say what someone MUST do to look good.

    I know a number of girls who really think that they are ugly for no reason other than that is the message her “friends” pass on to her subliminaly. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

    Please try to train yourself to understand your own limitations. You DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO EVALUATE THE WORLD’S PERCEPTION OF BEAUTY. If you think that you are attractive, great. If you think someone else is too, great. But don’t define what someone HAS TO BE in order to be attractive. Keep stupid comments like that to yourself, or better yet – STOP THINKING LIKE THAT.

    Sho’en.

    #635047

    oomis
    Participant

    Forgetting for the moment what the world ideally should be (ideally we should all be tzaddikim who only look at a person’s inner beauty), nonetheless the reality is that there are standards of beauty, some of which change with time, and some which remain a standard, and anything that helps any to feel more comfortable (within reason) in having met those standards, is not a bad thing. If a girl has really bad acne or colorless eyelashes, don’t try to sell her on the notion that she is fine the way she is. She might be fine, but she can look much better, and realistically, though we should not judge a book by its cover, most people do. And if the cover looks unattractive, it is harder to get people to read the potential wisdom of what is inside.

    #635048

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    squeak: you’re 100% right.

    at the same time, my self image is more than perfect. (i’m probably prettier than three quarters of the girls out there… i kinda have a tremendous ego ;-)…) my skin is great, B”H but i still love wearing makeup. it just enhances. without a little bit of eye-liner i’m not a person!

    then again, i see girls that wear close to nothing on their faces and look great. sometimes it’s just a different look.

    #635049

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Intellegent, I’m white as a ghost 🙂 I’ve also been blessed with rosy cheeks, red lips and well defined eyes. I’m not saying that I’m beautiful, just that for me, makeup is not a neccesity.

    Also, I guess I just dont focus on my looks that much. My husband fell in love with me for who I am. He always saw me in my regular clothing (jean skirt, t-shirts, hair in a ponytail/bun) so thats how he got used to me. When he saw me (in makeup) at my sisters wedding, he was stunned at how beatufiul I looked. If you wear makeup every day, you lose that effect.

    I find people dont usually NEED makeup until they start wearing it, and then they look like they are missing something when they dont wear it. (But I’m still young, so I may think differently when I get wrinkles LOL)

    #635050

    intellegent
    Member

    squeak,

    I don’t even know why I am honoring you with a response. Your comments were totally uncalled for.

    I do not see anything in my silly post that is BASELESS DISPARAGING GENERALITIES that give people a negative self image.

    The first part of my comment did not even contain my opinion on the matter. I just said that if you think it is a necessity then… and if you think it’s an extra then… I did not assert my view on the matter and I don’t even know what my view is because I did not really put much thought into that aspect.

    I then added that I feel that make up can make a big difference to someone who does not have natural color and is not as noticeable on someone who has natural color. This is REGARDLESS of whether they are considered “pretty” or not.

    I do not see anything that I wrote that would make someone think that they are ugly. And I certainly would never make any of my friends feel like they are ugly even subtly!

    Your post sounds to me like you were upset about this issue for some reason and want to scream about it so you decided to use my post as a springboard, but I really don’t see the connection. I’d think you’d better cool it as well as taking some course in reading comprehension.

    #635051

    beacon
    Participant

    Brooklyn19: “…I’m probably prettier than three quarters of the girls out there”

    Yes you can say BIG EGO again…sorry i just never heard someone referring to herself like this.. In fact you sound like a girl I used to know!

    #635052

    squeak
    Participant

    You must learn to own up to what you say. Intelligence will not always enable you to turn the tables (certainly not this time!).

    I refer you back to the following two statements:

    1) “according to oomis, some people NEED make up (which I agree with)”

    2) “people who have white skin must wear foundation to look decent

    Methinks there be a good number of folk who look plenty decent all the time. That’s just my opinion. You may have higher standards for who you are willing to acknowledge looks decent, but that’s just your own thinking. Don’t spread it.

    That set me off. I admit that after that I got on the soap box about this type of perception in general. But it was directed at you because your statement made me think that you belong to the group that “sets standards” and tries to enforce them on others.

    —-

    I’d just like to add a piece of wisdom that you may not have yet come across. People in general (and men especially) who hear you putting down the looks of others easily will quickly find YOU unattractive. Don’t find this out for yourself.

    All the best.

    #635053

    intellegent
    Member

    oomis1105

    I agree with you.

    SJS,

    you have a point there. If your hub got to know you always looking casual then he doesn’t expect more so it means you probably look beautiful to him the way you do (and maybe to the world as well, wouldn’t know, never saw you :-)) I went on formal dates, dressed my best, blew my hair and put on a full face of make up. It really makes a difference to my husband that I wear make up and it’s funny but some people are so obsessed with their looks that it is completely overdone while I have to work on myself to make myself look good (and I fail miserably 🙂

    a side point, I know s/o who’s husband always tells her that she looks better without make up but he obviously doesn’t realize when she is wearing make up because whenever she puts on make up he comments that she looks very good. LOL!!

    Also, I have a magnet that I think is hysterical. It goes, “We can’t both look good-it’s either me or my house.” So true!

    (sorry for going so off topic.)

    #635054

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    beacon: it’s a problem. i know. but i like it. at least i don’t have to look at others for my self image. it’s all here!

    btw was that girl gorgeous? maybe it was me! (lol i’m KIDDING! i’m not SO bad!)

    #635055

    intellegent
    Member

    squeak,

    Not sure if you sincerely misunderstood me or are getting a kick out of taking my words out of context. I would like to think the former. On the other hand, the way you quoted 1/2 a sentence ( 1) “according to oomis, some people NEED make up (which I agree with)” sounds like it’s the latter.

    Anyway, who cares, I know what I meant.

    #635056

    oomis
    Participant

    “i’m probably prettier than three quarters of the girls out there…”

    Don’t hold back – tell us what you REALLY think! 😉

    #635057

    beacon
    Participant

    brooklyn – she wasn’t so stunning, she just THOUGHT she looked like a model 😉 anyway I don’t think she would be posting on this site so chances are, you aren’t her.

    #635058

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    ok, oomis. than ALL the girls out there! lol jk.

    #635059

    noitallmr
    Participant

    Has this turned into a thread “What do you look like?”??????????

    I look like Dracula then…

    #635060

    Joseph
    Participant

    squeak: “People in general (and men especially) who hear you putting down the looks of others easily will quickly find YOU unattractive. Don’t find this out for yourself.

    squeak, Just a quick point, that women shouldn’t be making themselves attractive to anyone other than their spouse (or date.)

    #635061

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    i’m deciding between jackie kennedy and audrey hepburn…

    #635062

    as i glanced to see if there were any interesting topics in the coffee room or new recipes, i came across this topic. I thought it would be interesting… a discussion about the halacha of cosmetics, etc. Very nice, I thought, that is until I read some of the comments. I have never seen such a bunch of idiotic drivel, do you people have anything better to do????????

    #635063

    Joseph
    Participant

    yiddishemishpacha

    Welcome to the Coffee Room

    #635065

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    no idea. apparently everyone else knows better than i do. all i know is that i once bought a flavored lip gloss (it tasted disgusting!) and my friend mentioned that it might be a problem so i threw it out. but maybe there are different psaks.

    #635066

    oomis
    Participant

    I know there is a problem with flavored lipstick or chapstick on PESACH, but I have not heard that the flavor is a problem in regular lipstick. The flavors are artificial and chemical, I thought

    #635067

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    does that mean you’re telling me it’s kosher, but not for pesach? cuz something that’s unkosher’s gotta be kosher all year round – not just for pesach!

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