- This topic has 86 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 12 years ago by .
-
Posts
-
Would someone who works to stop anyone from doing Metzitzah B’Peh by all Bris Milah’s, be considered a rasha?
Would someone who works to stop anyone from doing Metzitzah B’Peh by all Bris Milah’s, be considered a rasha?
If someone knew the mohel had a herpatic infection in his mouth, the act of *not* attempting to stop him from performing MPB by all Brissim would (IMHO) make him a rasha.
The Wolf
Yes, as has been proven from past experience.
As long as mohel doesn’t have HI and cleans his mouth with alcohol then why not let him continue doing our tradition.
What kind of herpes was it? I learned that a cold sore( one strain of herpes) is not transferable. So sad and tragic what happened. Glad I don’t hold by that custom!
Is a person a rasha? Depends on his intention. If his intention is because he thinks this tradition is archaic and disgusting, then I would lean more towards yes. If the reason is because he believes it’s a sakanah and that any mohel could inadvertently harm the baby, then no.
On a side note, what is the source for metzitzah bapeh? The Gemara only says metzitzah. Other than tradition, why isn’t metztzah bakli good enough to fulfill the mandate of metzitzah?
R’ Shmuel Kaminetzky said yesterday that metzitzah should be done using a tube, not directly with the mouth. In fact, he was surprised to hear that some Rabbonim are against that, and was also surprised that there are mohalim who do it with direct contact.
That claim only comes from a supposed “phone interview” of Rav Shmuel by the Jewish Week, the anti-religious unreliable publication. Rav Shmuel does not typically grant “phone interviews” with newspapers.
I hold from ????? ??? ???.
That claim only comes from a supposed “phone interview” of Rav Shmuel by the Jewish Week, the anti-religious unreliable publication. Rav Shmuel does not typically grant “phone interviews” with newspapers.
Another example when a Rav Poskins that some dont like they claim its a “FORGERY”
I am not a Mohel, but I have watched various Mohelim do metzitza with a tube and do not believe any one of them was actually successful. The purpose of metzitza is to pull blood in the baby towards the sight of the bris. Could you imagine the extent of the seal that would have to be created between the tube and this tiny ‘eiver’ on a squirming baby in order to allow for any kind of suction? It seems almost impossible!
Any mohel doing Mbp needs to get checked by a doctor atleast bi annually and present a clean bill of health to his “clients”. This is the only way it is safe.
hakohen53,
Why do you say that? Are you familiar with a “nose freeda”? Google it. I’m not a mohel but seems like it might work.
Rav Shmuel confirmed the Jewish Week story was a lie and he supports MBP naturally.
Zahavasdad,
What do you have to say now. R Shmuel says that the quote on the (not)Jewish Week was a fabrication. They put together disparate parts of a conversation. Effectively they lied.
Which makes sense. That they lied and that this was could not be the opinion of R Shmuel. It is inconsistent with what he has said in the past, it was inconsistent with his father’s shitah and i
What is and was done in YTV and with the hakpodos of the Alter of Slabodka.
cheftze: If that’s true, then shouldn’t Rav Shmuel sue the Jewish Week?
Metzitza Bpeh is a Mesora, It should not be stopped unless absolutley necessary.
However I think that there should be a vaad which should oversee all mohalim.
there should be giudlines, which would include proper training, and saftey precautions.
The vaad should be have rabonim as well as mohalim and Docotors.
Each mohel would have to get certification, which would mean that he is well versed in halacha as well as in all saftey precations.
recertification would be needed after a preiod of time.
Just like we now require all bakeries to have a hashgacha certification, the same should apply for mohalem.
I think that this is common scents.
How could an adult putting his saliva in direct contact with an infant’s open wounds possibly not be dangerous???
If a doctor spit on the instruments he was using to examine (not to mention inserting like shots, tongue depressors etc.)your child with would you be O.K. with that??
As far as the “we have been doing this for the past 3500 years” argument;
1.)The infant mortality rate was so high for the vast majority of those “3500 years” that we do not sit Shiva for a baby that dies within the 30 days. I wouldn’t use the fact that they did anything then as a reason to continue doing it
2.)For most of the “3500 years” the vast, vast majority of people did not believe that diseases were caused by germs. The idea that somebody’s saliva could carry an STD or disease would be impossible to their minds, so of course they had no problem with it!
The infant mortality rate is generally describing babies dying in childbirth. Not thereafter, i.e. Bris.
And forget 3500 years. We’ve been practicing metzitza successfully for the past 50 and 100 years in “advanced” America. And in those 100 years, all the anti-religious have are less than a handful of uncoraborated stories from the last 5 years or so that they keep repeating. As if they keep saying the lie enough times it somehow becomes true.
How could an adult putting his saliva in direct contact with an infant’s open wounds possibly not be dangerous???
If a doctor spit on the instruments he was using to examine (not to mention inserting like shots, tongue depressors etc.)your child with would you be O.K. with that??
Certainly it carries certain dangers. The question is how large those dangers are, and how important the reasons to do it are. And then how those interests balance.
The question of how large the danger is, should be ascertained by the doctors.
The question of how important the reasons to do it are, should be ascertained by the rabbis.
The balancing of the interests, should be done by the rabbis, since that itself is the question of how important the reasons to do it are.
In any event, I’m betting, that the bris itself is far more dangerous than the added risk of metzitza b’peh. And Health will back me up on that, or shoot me down on that.
PBA: Nowadays, a Bris itself carries very little risk. Metzitzah B’peh either carries little risk (if the Mohel sterilizes his mouth and is disease-free) or a tremendous risk. The issue is whether the risk of that tremendous risk occurring is worth mandating that a sterile tube always be used.
The doctor? you mean the mohel?
Tremendous risk? How big risk? Are there studies? 1 in 1000? 1 in 10000? 1 in 50?
Bris has very little risk? Are there studies?
What is the risk in building a sukka? More or less than metzitza? People fall from ladders, cut themselves on saws, hit themselves with hammers, puncture with nail guns…
What is the risk of chanuka candles? Shabbos candles?
Shechita? People get trampled by cows…
Mikva? people drown (I know a case)
Fasting on yom kippur? people die, the doctors are sometimes wrong..
Drinking on purim? (ok, forget that one)
Breaking a glass under the chuppa? people have cut their foot.
Dancing on simchas torah? People have had heart attacks, have broken legs, etc
Throwing candy at aufruf and bar mitzva? Hitting in eye, kids getting trampled…
Staying up on shevuos
trying to get home in time for shabbos
etc.
PBA: Yes, I meant Mohel. If the doctor has an open herpes sore, there is something like an 90+% chance that he will transmit it to the baby. And babies almost never die by circumcision nowadays.
If the doctor has an open herpes sore, there is something like an 90+% chance that he will transmit it to the baby.
Mohelim don’t do a bris with an open herpes sore. Bad comparison.
And babies almost never die by circumcision nowadays.
And babies almost never die by metzitza nowadays. Except in the bubbe maaisas spread by the anti-religious without coraborration.
If the doctor has an open herpes sore, there is something like an 90+% chance that he will transmit it to the baby.
Ok, but the directly relevant question is: What percentage of metzitza b’peh occurrences leads to Herpes transmission, versus what percentage of babies develop herpes anyway?
Let’s keep in mind, that herpes is hardly a rare virus. In one study I found on google, they found herpes virus in 98% of healthy participants. (herpes simplex virus type I (HSV-1)). So it is probably pretty normal for babies to have, but if I could be wrong on that conclusion.
PBA: I think you’re wrong on that conclusion. Most people pick it up at some point in life, but where would a baby get it from? It’s dangerous for a baby. Not so much for an adult.
All these things are possible. That is why we have researchers and empirical studies.
Interesting, the Mohel does not come in contact with the baby utill the eigth day (Mogel Fischer did not perform briss on the baby that got herpes untill three weeks after the briss)
There are a lot of doctors, nurses and aids that have come in contact with the baby.
in my opinion, all of these people should be tested for herpes only after they are tested should the mohel be tested.
This was Fischers mistake, poeple in the ‘know’ have advised him to surrender and have himself tested. He should have fought it! since the baby was a three week old baby, all the nurses doctors and family member who had come in contact with the baby should first be investigated and tested and only afterwards should they test Fischer.
However, I still think that there should be a vaad that would consist of rabonim and doctors which would hand out certifications, I think that it is ridicoulos that anyone can call himself a Mohel.
2scents: I don’t know the specifics of any case, but how often do doctors, parents, etc. have open woulds that are touching the baby’s open wounds?
Sam: And how often do Mohelim have open wounds?
Stuck: If the answer to that question was never then this controversy wouldn’t exist. Once is too many times. But yes, if Mohalim just knew to not do a Bris whenever they have a cold sore then whether or not they have herpes wouldn’t matter and there would be far fewer issues with M’tzitza B’peh.
Sam: And is the answer vis-a-vis Doctors “never”? Or is once by doctors not too many? Or is it, for some reason, simply not a “controversy” by doctors?Or should we stop doctors from performing due to this risk?
Stuck: I don’t understand. When do doctors perform something “unnecessary” (the word is in quotes for a reason; I know that there is a very good reason to say it’s necessary) that bears even a tiny risk? If they did, they would get sued and lose their medical license.
Stuck. Even 1 is too many. And it is not anti religious people spreading this anti Mbp business around. It did happen it is a huge tragedy. There just need to be safe guards in place. Not everyone knows apparently when they have an open sore, so does that mean oh well it only happens so infrequently lets not even give it a second glance? No. Not to the family of the baby/ies who lost their lives.
Sam: And following Mesorah is unnecessary?
MorahRach: That isn’t true. There have been allegations that MBP caused a death, but NEVER a single confirmed case. Despite that some keep repeating some stories based upon faulty assumptions. That doesn’t make a single story true.
Stuck: It depends what you mean by Mesorah. Halachah states that suction must be applied. It was done in the most expedient way for a long time. Now we have an equally-expedient safer method. If you assume that Mesorah includes the way they did it then it’s very much not unnecessary. But if you assume that the way it was done is only because that was the most expedient method for a long time, then there definitely is room to call it unnecessary.
Even 1 is too many.
That is your judgment.
Well, I’d prefer that the rabbis decide that.
What is the source for metzitzah bapeh? The Gemara only says metzitzah. Other than tradition, why isn’t metztzah bakli good enough to fulfill the mandate of metzitzah? Is it possible that the only reason metzitzah bapeh was practiced was because there was no kli good enough, but if you had a kli that could get the same results, then it would be just as good as metzitzah bapeh (and possibly better if it carries less health risks)?
Maybe you can just make an automated machine to replace the mohel doing mbp (or even bris milah itself, if possible!) After all, the only reason they didn’t use a machine for thousands of years is because there were no machines.
popa_bar_abba
Correct.
I wonder why people are so quick to give up their Mesorah based on a news report.
According to Sam, and others (MO, like Feif) everything we do as Jews can and should be questioned. Because, as they will explain, as long as G-d Himself didn’t say to do it <b>this</b> way, the MO will ask why don’t we do it <i>that</i> way. (Or do it at all.) it’s their attitude towards yiddishkite.
According to a real Doc, Dr. Daniel S. Berman, MD, F.A.C.P., Chief of Infectious-Disease at New York Westchester Square Hospital, there is NO definitive link between Mpb and those deaths.
To those looking to question yiddishkite, even a rumor that some phd made up is enough to throw it all away. for shame.
Wow yitchokm, a personal attack and an attack on a whole group of Frum Jews was not necessary and is not appreciated. Someone asked questions and I explained why some people have an issue with the current situation and their logic. Face it, you have no idea what I hold on Metzitzah B’peh (nor is what I hold relevant here, seeing as I have no right to even have an opinion on this issue), yet you use my explanation of a viewpoint to attack me, my Yiddishkeit, the Yiddishkeit of someone not involved in this thread at all, and the Yiddishkeit of tens of thousands (maybe even hundreds of thousands?) of Frum Jews.
Sam2: Are you for real? Who on this thread is attacking the yidishkeit of other frum jews? Who is claiming that thousands of people who do something that their rebbeim tell them to do are doing something “unnecessary” which endangers their children?
PBA: Find me once where I personally claimed that. I explained what the opinion and the Tzad of those against MBP are. That’s it. I personally think the whole controversy is entirely overblown. Mohalim just need to make sure they’re not sick and should clean their mouths before doing MBP. (I do, however, think that a Mohel who has herpes and an open wound/cold sore and is going to do MPB anyway has the Din of a Rodeph, which is not at all a radical opinion. I think everyone agrees that someone with herpes and a cold sore shouldn’t do MPB and puts the baby in tremendous danger for no reason.)
Sam,
It’s not a personal attack. It’s my understanding of the MO movement.
Yitzchokim
it’s not as if mesorah hasn’t been thrown away before. Didn’t the baal shem tov do that when he discarded centuries of mesorah and adopted a new nusach, mihagim etc?
You are talking about the ARIZAL, not the Baal Shem.
the obtuseness of this thread is astounding. the biggest rabbis say yes, the left-leaning westernized clergy-dudes say no, and all of a sudden the frumme’ become reshaim.
yitzchokm- you should learn more about the Modern Orthodox movement before being motzi laaz. Don’t worry, you still have 6 months until Yom Kippur to ask mechilah.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.