Million Man Atzeres

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  • #1020472

    rc
    Participant

    i see it like this.. and i do not profess to be a baki in anything, (buy maybe common sense) there are two issues here and i see them to be separate issues. One is induction of charedim into the iDF the other is share the burden. I do believe the spiritual koach of learning is protecting the state of israel and the Jewish people. i do believe without it we will cease to exist. I also believe that the ENTIRE CHAREIDI population has been raised to believe that the state will provide all of your needs for you and asks nothing in return. That is an Israeli mindset that needs to change…If you live in the state , and get bituach leumi, and kupat cholim, and free tuition, and subsidized housing, and food, and arnona discounts, and garbage pickup, and ambulance services, and whatever else you depend on the medina for, than you should give something back. In the rest of the world its usually in taxes.. Well i wont go there but you know there arent any chareidim paying any kind of taxes…so taht brings me to my next point. if they want to sit in shalom veshalva, at whose expense is that security.? Well its at the expense of the poster above, who worries about his son’s service in the IDF and his welfare. I agree the IDF is no place for a “good Jewish boy” but if the nachal charedi and the hesder factions have found a system that allows them to serve and remain in the proper environment, then IMHO the charedim should show them the utmost kavod and respect. They are making a kiddush Hashem, and bridging the gap. I also believe that not every “charedi” sitting in a yeshiva should be there. and i also agree that the male charedi population should be providing for their families and not relying on govt. either thru kodesh work or other work in an appropriate setting. so the bottom line is,, if you wnat to protest and dodge the draft and not particiapte at all in share the burden, then the answer is be like neturi karta. dont use the govt at all. dont take their money for you mosdos, or for your healthcare, or for your subsidies. and then you can learn uninterrupted, with no one bothering you… just an idea…but i honestly cant blame the secular Israeli society for viewing us as parasites….

    #1020473

    Softwords
    Participant

    koldmamadaka – First of all, Yashar Kochacha! May Hashem protect your son from harm and help him to defend his people well! May he give you and your family much nachas!

    I am very tired now, but feel that your question should be address. Unfortunately, I am too tired to give a full answer. B”EH I can at least start you in the right direction.

    As you and I know, there are a lot of things that we learn in Torah sh’bichtav and Torah sh’baal Peah that are not easy to swallow.

    Hashem says, “?? ???????? ?????????”

    Hashem’s wisdom is beyond ours and we are required to follow his wisdom, not ours.

    Example: According to the Torah ???? ?????? are only punish the Din of Zumamim if they are caught “BEFORE” they succeed. If they manage to get away with it (such as get someone killed) they are not punished ???? ???? ?????.

    This defies our logic! We would learn a ?? ?????. If a someone didn’t get away with it he gets ???? ????, then all the more so if he got away with it!!!

    But the law is not that way. The law is the way Hashem says it is and we are required to follow it. That is being a committed Jew! Anything less, is being committed to ourselves and our own personal beliefs. That constitutes Avoda Zora.

    As far as your question, most poskim learn from the Rambam that people that want to dedicate their lives to learning Torah are exempt from any military service. If this is correct, it is Hashem’s will and we are not allowed to complain, even if it is difficult for us to understand.

    This website (YWN) posted a video recently of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, z”l speaking exactly about the points and feelings you expressed. It may help you to watch.

    May Mashiach come soon and may the world come to a peaceful state.

    (PS. In case you’re wondering, I’m not Lubavitch. 🙂 )

    #1020474

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    First of all I argue the point that Shivyon B’Netel is all about the money since a large part of the Chareidi population i.e Brisk, Eidah Hachareidis and Satmer as a whole, which together actually add up to a sizeable number, take no funding from the Medinah.

    Yet the Draft Law make’s no exemptions for them.

    #1020475

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    As for the part that Chareidim pay no taxes.

    That’s impossible there’s an 18% VAT tax in ISreal how can you pay not taxe’s?

    Plus 45% of Chareidi men end up working as do the majority of Chareidi women.

    Add to that the Tourisim industry in Isreal in which Chareidim play an outsized role. (El-Al’s most profitable route by far is JFK-Tel Aviv ever checked who goes on that flight?)

    #1020476

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    And if the tens of thousands of Chareidim sitting and learning are not at the minimum viewed as playing a supoorting role similar to those reparing the tanks, jets ect…then it’s afundemental disagreement.

    #1020477

    HaKatan
    Participant

    KDD:

    First, I sincerely hope Mashiach comes long before your son is called up to the IDF at 18 and, regardless, that all of Klal Yisrael, including those in Eretz Yisrael, always remain safe and sound, BE”H.

    I have a number of questions on your post:

    For starters, why is this a question of your son versus the Chareidim? You stated that you, yourself, served in the IDF and you are well aware that Israel (bizarrely) chooses to forcibly draft every 18 year old into the IDF (when no other modern country does so). Yet you chose to raise your children in Israel with this knowledge. Obviously, even if every Chareidi did serve, Israel’s draft laws would still apply to your son. So I don’t see what one has to do with the other.

    Then, of course, there are the other issues of why it is simply not possible to ask a Chareidi to, CH”V, serve in the IDF.

    For one, since the main purpose of the IDF is to turn its enlistees into “Israelis”, this is a major non-starter for a Chareidi whose life is devoted to the Torah and not, ch”V, to Zionism or any other ism. As well, there are the many well-known immorality and other anti-Torah problems that make IDF service a non-starter. These make international news, and are not exactly a secret.

    As well, the Chareidim have suffered terribly because of this State that they very much didn’t want (and, it is certainly clear by now, that this State has been terrible for Jews).

    The Zionists wouldn’t even have the basic decency to let the Chareidim earn a living. Meaning, their “ptur” of “Toraso umanuso” was conditional on literal mesiras nefesh of Zionist-forced impoverishment. It is a further chutzpah to now attempt to shmad these Chareidim, who preceded the Zionists in E”Y.

    #1020478

    HaKatan
    Participant

    To clarify, the whole “sharing the burden” nonsense (which the IDF itself does not agree with, as they don’t want Chareidim, at least not ones who aren’t prepared to convert to Zionism) is simply another (very serious) Zionist shmad tactic.

    I have mentioned Rav Elchonon’s and Rav Chaim’s holy words many times on these boards. There is no known dissent among those accepted in the general Torah world.

    So it seems pretty simple to me. Chareidim (and their descendants) who preceded the Zionists are off-limit to the Zionists regarding shmad, the army, denying permission to work, etc. On the other hand, those who, for whatever reason, choose to join the State of Israel and agree with its policies, certainly have that choice.

    #1020479

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Another question:

    “Religious Zionism” believes in serving the State, etc. (and, according to a prominent “MO” posek, serving in the IDF is doche pikuach nefesh because of the State itself even if no Jewish lives would be saved). On the other hand, Chareidi law (and traditional observant Judaism) doesn’t believe in any of this.

    With all due respect, assuming for argument’s sake that there is even what to talk about halachicly, the “Religious Zionists” should still respect the halachic opinion accepted by chareidim – for Chareidim – that serving in the IDF is assur.

    I understand this doesn’t help secular Israelis, but I don’t see why this shouldn’t answer the questions like yours of why your son is expected to serve in the IDF but they don’t.

    Very simple: you believe it’s a mitzva to do so and are, unfortunately, compelled to by your government to serve while traditional Orthodox Judaism, Chareidim included, does not believe in any of this to the point that the gedolim have said this is shmad, etc.

    So, even liShitas the “MO/R”Z””, why should this be any different than any other halachic dispute where each “camp” does what they understant to be correct?

    Regardless of any of this, as I wrote earlier, I wish your son and all of Klal Yisrael all good things, BE”H.

    #1020480

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DaasYochid

    a singular mind

    Gavra, I believe that feeling hakaras hatov is pretty much universal in theory. The issue is how to express it, and whether doing so, publicly, clouds the hashkafic differences.

    Sure, “feeling HaKaras HaTov” is universal, but not towards Israeli soldiers. Take a look at the recent video on the Asifa in EY (Arutz Sheva has it).

    As a separate point, why should “Hashkafic differences” affect one iota whether someone should express Hakaras Hatov?

    So it seems pretty simple to me. Chareidim (and their descendants) who preceded the Zionists are off-limit to the Zionists regarding shmad, the army, denying permission to work, etc. On the other hand, those who, for whatever reason, choose to join the State of Israel and agree with its policies, certainly have that choice.

    HaKatan, Agreed. Gafni and his ilk should declare their open peaceful opposition to the state. Of course they would no longer take any funding whatsoever, but I’m sure Satmar USA will pick up the tab.

    #1020481

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, that’s why I said, “in theory”. Some held like you (and I, I guess), such as R’ Chaim Shmuelevitz. I suppose those who disagree hold that the “hamon am” cannot be expressive of hakaras hatov while at the same time holding that they shouldn’t be doing what we’re having hakaras hatov for.

    BTW, I do plan be”H to be in Manhattan on Sunday.

    #1020482

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DaasYochid: Interesting and good point. I would love to follow up, but the CR is not the place for it.

    Good for you that you are going. I first want to hear what my Rov & boss have to say. If I go, I’ll be the guy with the $10.10 minimum wage sign

    🙂

    #1020483

    koldmamadaka
    Member

    I suppose that on very many issues here we shall have to respect each other’s divergent views and leave it at that.

    My son was at the Jerusalem Recruiting Office this morning for his second appointment/interview. In no way do I view his having to serve as unfortunate. My wife & I told him that serving is a mitzvah, an honor (a privilege even!) and an obligation. I think the IDF is a very appropriate place for Jewish men & women.

    I do, in one sense, admire Neturei Karta (though I consider them about as Jewish as the Samaritans or Karaites, who, by the way serve in the IDF, as do Druze, Bedouin & increasing numbers of Arab Christians). They are consistent. They are not hypocrites. They take, and give, nothing to the state, unlike, “Gafni and his ilk” as Gavra’ said.

    #1020484

    HaKatan
    Participant

    KDD:

    I still haven’t seen anyone explain (other than from the Chareidi side, which you would certainly find offensive) why the “Dati Leumi” are not DEFENDING the Chareidim, since part of “D”L” is, of course, Das, or religion. So surely the “D”L” would sympathize with their Chareidi brethren and would want the Chareidim to follow their Daas Torah.

    Again, I understood from your original post that the Chareidi position of forbidding service in the IDF results in your son being relegated to “chotvei eitzim viShoavei mayim” relative to chareidim. You’re essentially implying that your son is being made a “second-class Jew”. Yet, in a later post, you say you believe his serving in the IDF is not unfortunate but a Mitzvah. And you also don’t seem to deny that chareidim hold the polar opposite liHalacha.

    So while I certainly understand the “divergent views”, I still don’t understand why your original post conveyed these offensive and incorrect implications, especially when your own later posts have shown this is not your true position.

    #1020485

    koldmamadaka
    Member

    I may be mistaken but while I think it is a mitzvah for my son to serve in the IDF like I did, I think that those of my haredi brethren who refuse to serve are, in effect, relegating my son to the status of chovet etzim v’shoeiv mayim. My son and his peers will risk life and limb to protect this countrywhile my haredi brethren who refuse to serve (or do alternative national service)are risking what exactly? And then they demand that I finance their non-service??!!

    #1020486

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Without getting into all the issues again, and purely “liShitascha”, I don’t see why this should be any less than sheivet Leivi being supported by Klal Yisrael while the rest of Klal Yisrael works, etc.

    Again, I believe “chotvei eitzim viShoavei mayim” is inappropriate and offensive.

    #1020487

    Softwords
    Participant

    koldmamadaka – I must ditto HaKatan’s comment. Your original post seemed respectful and sounded like a good Jew who was just expressing his feelings of resentment for his son putting his life on the line for his fellow Jews while others (in your opinion) are not. That is why I sympathized with you and decided to reply with compassion and understanding.

    Your later statement, “…relegating my son to the status of chovet etzim v’shoeiv mayim”, however, is REALLY offensive!

    On top of that, you seem to recognize and appreciate the sacrifices that your son is making by putting his life on the line for his people, and yet you “seem” to have NO appreciation for the sacrifices that Bnei Torah make to preserve Torah and Mitzvot in Klal Yisrael (which TRUST US they do).

    Furthermore, I think you need to understand that if not for the Chareidim there would be no Mizrachi Jews.

    Every Hesder Yeshivah has its roots from Chareidi Gedolim!

    Harav Chaim Yaakov Goldvicht, zt”l – Talmid of the Chazon Ish and the Brisker Rav.

    HaRav Tzvi Yehuda HaCohen Kook zt”l – Talmid of his father ztk”l.

    HaRav Abraham Isaac Kook ztk”l – Talmid of the Netziv

    Rav Haim Meir Drukman lhbc”l – Talmid of HaRav Tzvi Yehuda HaCohen Kook zt”l

    Rav Yaakov Ariel – Talmid of HaRav Tzvi Yehuda HaCohen Kook zt”l

    Rav Shlomo Avner – Talmid of HaRav Tzvi Yehuda HaCohen Kook zt”l

    Harav Yehuda Amital zt”l – HaRav Isser Zalman Meltzer zt”l

    DO I NEED TO GO ON!!!

    In short, your son is sacrificing 3 years to physically protect his people.

    The Bnei Torah are sacrificing their entire life to protect the continuity of the Jewish people!!! Do you really think it is easy to live day by day not knowing how you are going to clothes your family, let alone feed them? o you really think it is easy to live day by day surviving with the barest of necessities? And why do we do this? Because we know that without Torah Study Yom V’Lilah Klal Yisrael is lost!!

    ???? ???? ???? ????? – You say this EVERY day! what does this mean to you?

    You probably think what I am saying is a joke, so let me tell you a story. I once stayed in a town where many of the stores had names like, “Schwartz’s ****”, “Levi’s ****”, etc. This small community hardly had any visible Jews. A friend of mind that was living there (they were starting a Yeshiva there) noticed this and upon meeting an old Jew that lived most of his life there he inquired as what was going on. The old man told him that there used to be a vibrant Jewish community there, but because they did not have a Jewish Educational System there the Jews eventually got lost and assimilated!!!

    Without the CONSTANT study of TORAH we are LOST!!!!!

    The Greek understood this! The Roman’s understood this! The Spaniards understood this! The German’s understood this! The Russians understood this!

    Are you telling me that YOU don’t understand this?

    #1020488

    Sam2
    Participant

    Softwords: That was a strong rant that was both irrelevant and misguided. To start, I find it unlikely that you would claim R’ Kook and R’ Soloveitchik as “Chareidim” in any other context, whatever that means. Similarly, there was no distinction between “Chareidi” and “Dati L’umi” in the time of the Netziv so going back that far gains you nothing.

    Secondly, nowhere did he claim that no one should learn. He didn’t say that we need to stop Torah. He said that people should spend a few months-years in the army. That isn’t stopping Torah. That’s having a (small) part of your life that stops you from being able to learn.

    And your claim that “Bnei Torah” (which is quite an insulting term used in contrast to his son) “put their lives on the line” is false and foolish. Who says they get anything for choosing to be destitute? Who says such a thing is even Muttar? If I suddenly decided to eat only 200 calories a day, that wouldn’t make me a Tzaddik. It would make me anorexic. So your claim that they are sacrificing their lives for Yiddishkeit isn’t Muchrach at all. They are sacrificing something, certainly. But the burden of proof that it is for the sake of the continuation of Yiddishkeit is on you.

    #1020489

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Sam2:

    I believe softwords’ point about the Rabbeim of these “D”L” rabbis is actually quite instructive, because it highlights the utter lack of mesorah (and the halachic invalidity) of “D”L”.

    Regardless of this, of course there was a distinction. Never mind “Mizrachi”; even Chovivei Tzion was considered wrong by Rav Hirsch and even by the Netziv later in his life.

    Regardless of KDD’s intent, the Zionists are, of course, trying to stop Torah. From Ben-Gurion (and on), the stated purpose of the IDF is shmad. It’s not “just” a few months of army service.

    Finally, his reference to “bnai Torah” in this context is not at all insulting; you know exactly what he means. He means someone whose primary occupation is learning Torah, not any Jew who follows the Torah.

    As well, why do you assume that the Chareidim WANT to be impoverished? The wicked Zionists left them no choice by forcing them to either be shmaded in the IDF or else to claim their “pitur” that absolves them of army service but NOT to allow them to work. Someone posted this recently on these boards, incidentally.

    So, yes, the Chareidim are literally being moser nefesh for continuing Yiddishkeit. That is exactly what the Chareidim are doing in the face of increasing Zionist shmad.

    #1020490

    Sam2
    Participant

    Hakatan: Then why do so many Chareidim above the working age still not work? Every day there are new statements supposedly in the name of the Gedolim that getting a job is Assur and poison for Yiddishkeit and that you have to just learn and trust the money will come from somewhere. I have no problem with staying in Kollel and learning as long as it can be afforded. But the claim that the only reason they don’t work is because of the army law just doesn’t stand up to basic logic.

    #1020491

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, then why do chassidim of the same rebbes work in such higher percentages in chu”l?

    #1020492

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    softwords: Unfortunately, koldmamadaka had a point. Many chareidim view non-chareidim as second-class Jews. Even in the USA, many yeshiva guys view working people as second-best (until it’s time to get married, and they need a wealthy father-in-law, of course!)

    You also write of “the sacrifices that Bnei Torah make to preserve Torah and Mitzvot in Klal Yisrael”. Yes, they definitely learn, but I wouldn’t say they “preserve” Torah for the Jews! There are plenty of non-chareidim (or even chareidim who don’t learn full-time) who learn Torah and do mitzvos! “Preserve” means that without them, Torah and Mitzvos would be lost. That is definitely not true!

    You say these people are sacrificing their entire lives to protect the continuity of the Jewish people. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

    The fact is that it’s brought down in many places that a person is supposed to support his family. Im ein kemach, ein Torah. It says that someone who only learns and relies on charity will end up becoming a thief. Unfortunately, this can be seen in Israel nowadays, where thousands of chareidim lie about being full-time learners in order to get a government check. I remember Feif Un telling me a few years ago about a story with a kollel guy who had children and no money. He got caught shoplifting.

    Men are supposed to work to support their families. Claiming that learning full-time “preserves” the Jewish people is wrong. It actually distorts what is proper in Judaism.

    #1020493

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY, DaMoshe, Sam2: Exactly the point and you are all correct. It is not a Chassidus (although some, like Boston-American, are better even in Israel), or Torah, or even a draft issue. At this point it is a societal issue.

    P.S. I was somewhat unimpressed. NYPD estimates were at 30-35 thousand, while when Satmar protested last year themselves, it was at 20 thousand. No wonder why the Daily News called it a “Satmar protest”.

    #1020494

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Even by Chassidim, there is a much, much higher societal stigma against getting a job in Israel than America.

    #1020495

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, precisely, and it’s caused by the difficulty placed on charedim working, by government policies.

    Would it change overnight if suddenly, military exemptions were granted on grounds of religious incompatibility? Of course not, but it probably would change, gradually.

    #1020496

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, the same DN which (in one caption) referred to it as a Satmar protest (which anyone who was there can tell you is silly), reported the numbers as 50,000.

    #1020497

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY: Agree and disagree. I agree that it is the government policies, but disagree that it is the difficulty. It was the ease of learning full time and going on government funding in the 90’s & 00’s (promoted by Charaidi parties with a helping hand from others) that started the society on this path.

    Before then many if not most “Charaidim” (as defined today) would have joined the army. More importantly, it was an acceptable path anywhere outside of the NK types. Now it isn’t, and that will be very hard to change, even if they are allowed to work. Who will be the first to have their daughter stigmatized by having a working father? Who will allow their son to marry such a girl?

    (This is why I disagree with Yesh (or Ain) Atid as well. They are working off of bad assumptions so they push the draft. What is more important? Sitting in jail (while you will just learn there like you did outside) or marrying off your daughters?)

    #1020498

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY: Naniach that, even 30K over Satmar alone is not really impressive. How many frum jews live in the NYC area (excluding Satmar), and what percentage attended?

    Contrast that to the Israeli day parade (1M+) and tell me you are still impressed.

    I’m not saying it wasn’t a good thing (torn), or that any Atzeres Tefilah / Hafgana should not happen. I’m just saying that if I were the organizers, I would internally be disappointed by the low turnout.

    #1020499

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    For some time, I have refrained from posting here, being censored too often, but one remark from gavra-at-work made me so incensed that I had to abandon my principles for once. He writes:

    “a daugher stigmatized for having a working father? who will allow his son to marry such a girl?”

    HAVE WE ABSOLUTELY GONE MAD? Working is a sin? working for a living- as gemoro, kesubah, rishonim and more tell us to do,has become a stigma? Has the chareidi world gone mad? Where do you think all those great learners get their money from? fathrs-in-law that work, for heaven’s sake!

    If this is indeed what chareidi society in Israel has become, then it is time to wind it up.

    #1020500

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    ROB: They DO NOT get money from their fathers in law. They get it from people like you (who give to mishulachim from EY) and from the Israeli government. Some get stipends from their own Chassidus, who may have a big American G’vir who gives to the Chassidus.

    #1020502

    HaKatan
    Participant

    ROB:

    Of course, there is no stigma to having a father who works (and plenty of Chassidim in the United States and elsewhere do work). But this is only if working doesn’t require one to be shmaded like by the Zionists in Israel.

    Thus, what GAW means, I think, is that a young woman in Israel with a working father also means that her working father was first shmaded by the IDF (regardless of how he, personally, came out of that shmad), which is obviously a stigma.

    #1020503

    HaKatan
    Participant

    It doesn’t make sense to compare these numbers to the Israel Day parade, because there are far more “MO” and mostly/completely non-observant Jews than there are observant Jews.

    So given that additional pool of people (secular Jews), it makes sense that a gathering of all frum Jews will not come close to a gathering of secular (and “D”L”) Jews.

    As well, unfortunately, for many Jews, the two gatherings are not mutually exclusive. I imagine there were Jews who attended Sunday’s gathering but will still not understand why it makes no sense to attend the Israel Day parade.

    Whether 50K or 150K, and on very limited notice, this is quite a large number of observant Jews who understand the evil perpetrated by the Zionists on our brethren in E”Y, B”H.

    #1020504

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    HaKatan – Nope, nothing to do with Shmad (this time). Having an education and working is its own stigma (which is why Americans have to bend over backwards to be partially accepted, even if only for their children), even if the army was not an issue.

    Its not always all about the hated Zionists.

    #1020505

    HaKatan
    Participant

    GAW and ROB:

    Again, outside of Israel, there is no stigma for any young woman if her father is working. In fact, this is the norm. Only in Israel is there a problem of being shmaded by the IDF.

    #1020506

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    HaKatan:

    Again, outside of Israel, there is no stigma for any young woman if her father is working. In fact, this is the norm. Only in Israel is there a problem of society considering you second class because you do not learn full time.

    #1020507

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    The sad silver lining in this whole matter of working people that the chareidim in israel are running out of people to subsidize them. Whether Americans have difficulty being accepted,I don’t know.I do know that ,echoing Margaret Thatcher, there comes a time you run out of other people’s money. Maybe we are at that point.

    #1020508

    HaKatan
    Participant

    GAW:

    I’m not sure why you insist on ignoring reality. As I wrote, “Only in Israel is there a problem of being shmaded by the IDF.” Until this is addressed, there is nothing else to discuss in this matter.

    #1020509

    HaKatan
    Participant

    ROB:

    There would be no concern of “running out of people to subsidize” if only the . . . Zionists, were to allow the Chareidim to work without first requiring them to be shmaded in the IDF.

    edited for insults. Stick to your point

    #1020510

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    HaKatan: Isn’t the law that you can’t work if you didn’t serve in the IDF only until the age of 28? A study found that 65% of the … chareidi men between the ages of 35 and 54 are unemployed. If they’re allowed to work at that age, why are 65% of men not doing so?

    #1020511

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    To quote Hakatan:

    First, I sincerely hope Mashiach comes long before your son is called up to the IDF at 18 and, regardless, that all of Klal Yisrael, including those in Eretz Yisrael, always remain safe and sound, BE”H.

    The Zionists wouldn’t even have the basic decency to let the Chareidim earn a living. Meaning, their “ptur” of “Toraso umanuso” was conditional on literal mesiras nefesh of Zionist-forced impoverishment. It is a further chutzpah to now attempt to shmad these Chareidim, who preceded the Zionists in E”Y.

    Hakatan:

    Firstly, if you used the word “influence” instead of “shmad”, it would lower everyone’s blood pressure a couple of notches.

    Secondly, thanks for posting. You are the only poster who consistently portrays a cohesive quasi-Chareidi worldview.

    Thirdly, your good wishes to future soldiers are nice. And I’m sure you do appreciate their contributions, and thank them as you pass them on the street.

    It’s just that even people who would want to align themselves with some of your opinions are turned off by the way they are communicated. Perhaps try starting (as you did here) and ending on a positive note about how you hope all Jews stay well. If people feel that you care, they are less likely to react in a knee-jerk fashion to constructive criticism.

    #1020512

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Firstly, if you used the word “influence” instead of “shmad”, it would lower everyone’s blood pressure a couple of notches.

    He says Shmad because he seriously believes it IS Shmad. Standard NK/Satmar/Brisker Shittah. I have no qualms with it. My only disagreement with him here is that I believe in Israel, even had the IDF not been trying to Shmad everyone, there would still be strong societal pressure to stay in learning and out of the workforce.

    #1020513

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    gavra at work:Your last words truly sadden me. “Societal pressure to stay in learning and out of the workforce”? Everyone? Every single person? And who fill feed them? Without rehashing the learning v. working debate, this is a very sad state of affairs if work is now considered inferior-contrary to every gemoro and halocho.

    #1020514

    Logician
    Participant

    Sam2 – I don’t know what ‘statements by Gedolim’ you’re referring to. While there is a strong push to learn, I’ve never heard a statement in my life saying anything like that, and I’ve spent my whole life in Chareidi Yeshivos in both US and EY.

    However, you are certainly correct that for a large percentage of life-time learners, the issue is not only the draft. No one here has really responded to that.

    #1020515

    Softwords
    Participant

    Sam2 – you write, “To start, I find it unlikely that you would claim R’ Kook and R’ Soloveitchik as “Chareidim” in any other context, whatever that means. “

    That is an unfair assumption. Furthermore, you are wrong. I have the utmost esteem for Rav Kook zt”l. I may not follow his derech, but that doesn’t mean I don’t recognize his greatness.

    You write, “And your claim that “Bnei Torah” (which is quite an insulting term used in contrast to his son)…”

    I’m “assuming” you think I meant “Chareidim” when I wrote “Bnei Torah”. I never had that in mind. May I remind you that Hesder Yeshivas have Avreichim as well (of course, you call them Rabbinical students instead of Avreichim, but it’s the same thing. Long term dedication to the Study of Torah). Yes, it’s true that the Hesder Yeshivas have them on a lesser scale, but why are you denigrating their learning? Go to Yeshivat Mercaz HaRav and you will see that they also learn and pray with real Yirat Shamiyim.

    #1020516

    Softwords
    Participant

    ROB – you write, “The sad silver lining in this whole matter of working people that the chareidim in israel are running out of people to subsidize them.”

    No, the reality is that the sad thing is that all of us (you included) are subjected to a non-religious government that is at best “tolerant” of religious Jews and at worst “proactively set on uprooting Torah from Klal Yisrael”.

    If Moshiach was here ruling over us instead, we wouldn’t be arguing with each other right now, would we. …except maybe over a Ketzot Hachoshin!

    🙂

    #1020517

    Softwords
    Participant

    ROB – you write, “The sad silver lining in this whole matter of working people that the chareidim in israel are running out of people to subsidize them.”

    No, the reality is that the sad thing is that all of us (you included) are subjected to a non-religious government that is at best “tolerant” of religious Jews and at worst “proactively set on uprooting Torah from Klal Yisrael”.

    If Moshiach was here ruling over us instead, we wouldn’t be arguing with each other right now, would we. …except maybe over a Ketzot Hachoshin!

    🙂

    #1020518

    MMA

    koldmamadaka:

    While I definitely understand how it can be emotionally difficult to know that your son is risking his life to serve his country while others are not, you must realize intellectually that there are many jobs that that do not entail any risk to life and limb are also crucial to the country. For instance, can one reasonably claim that a soldier operating an Iron Dome battery in the heart of Tel Aviv is serving his country any less than an infantryman? Are both of them not ensuring the safety of their fellow Jews?

    And is the Torah not at least as important in ensuring the safety and continuity of the Jewish People as is the Iron Dome, and therefore just at least as worthy of state support?

    What is hypocritical about believing that a life dedicated to Torah contributes at least as much to the safety and continuity of the Jewish People as serving 36 months in the IDF does?

    rc:

    Wow. What a snide, derogatory, spiteful, and above all false generalization. You should be ashamed of yourself.

    DaMoshe:

    #1020519

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Rambam famously paskens:

    ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???. ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???. ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????. ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???. ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???. ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????

    Many later authorities discuss this psak. The Kesef Mishnah discussses it at lenth. It’s brought up in Shulchan Aruch YD 246 by the Rema and discussed by the commentaries there. The Biur Halacha in siman 231 discusses it etc. etc.

    They all either bring dissenting views against the Rambam or argue that the Rambam would agree nowadays (or they accept the psak). None of them mention the Rambam’s famous psak that “one may choose to dedicate his life to learning Torah and rely on Hashem for his parnosa.” which would seemingly be very relevant to the issue they are discussing.

    #1020520

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Also, since many people use this same Rambam as a source for army exemption:

    R’ Shlomo Aviner writes (translation)”Ha-Rav Tanenbaum, who was the secretary of the Va’ad Ha-Yeshivot in Israel, heard from Ha-Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer that it is a falsification to claim based on this Rambam that yeshiva students are exempt from military service.”

    and R’ Aharon Lichtenstein writes “Even if we grant that the Rambam’s statement does imply a categorical dispensation in purely halachic terms, it remains of little practical significance. We have yet to examine just to whom it applies. A levi is defined genealogically. Those who are equated with him, however, literally or symbolically, are defined by spiritual qualities; and for these the Rambam sets a very high standard indeed. He present an idealized portrait of a selfless, atemporal, almost ethereal person – one whose spirit and intelligence have led him to divest himself of all worldly concerns and who has devoted himself “to stand before God, to serve Him, to worship Him, to know God; and he walks aright as the Lord has made him and he has cast off from his neck the yoke of the many considerations which men have sought.” To how large a segment of the Torah community – or, a fortiori, of any community – does this lofty typology apply? To two percent? Five Percent? Can anyone… confront a mirror and tell himself that he ought not to go to the army because he is kodesh kodashim, sanctum sanctorum, in the Rambam’s terms?”

    #1020521

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Disclaimer: I am just arguing about a specific source; I am not espousing a position on Kollel or army service.

    #1020522

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Why bring up this discussion by Zionist Rabbis, as if serving in the IDF is worth even discussing?

    The gedolim have declared (recently, again) that the serving in the IDF is assur, regardless of whether or not one is learning.

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