Ministering Angels and Bigdei Kehuna

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  • #612505
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Gemara in Kiddushin (54a) says that Kohanim can get hanaah from the bigdei kehuna since the Torah was not given to ministering angels. Rashi explains that human beings are not zerizim like angels to take off the begadim the moment they have finished the avodah and therefore the Torah allows the Kohanim to get hanaah (i.e. it would be impossible for them not to get hanaah therefore it is mutar). The implication from Rashi is that if human beings could be zerizim like ministering angels then there would be no problem. But why not? No matter how zariz you are it is not possible for the begadim to be on and off at the same time, and the begadim are required to be on for the entirety of the avodah which means that they by definition will have to be on for the smallest increment of time even after the avodah is completed. So even if the kohanim were as zariz as ministering angels, the Torah would still have to permit them to get hanaah.

    #1033217

    I’ll maybe think, could be, possibly, if one was a zariz as an angel, then it would be indeed possible to be taken off the instant it’s no longer needed.

    #1033218
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    It would only be possible if the concept of time did not exist.

    #1033219
    Sam2
    Participant

    PAA: The concept of time doesn’t exist. Toch K’dei Dibur kills it.

    #1033220
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Do you know the concept of angel?

    #1033221

    Right you are. And that is where angels come into the picture. Area and time are not concepts, bounderies regarding Malachai maalah.

    #1033222
    Sam2
    Participant

    PAA: Also, I think you’re overreading this. It’s not about the time. It’s not Meilah instantly. You’re allowed to take it off as soon as you’re done with it (similar to when you’re Chayav for not having Tzitzis on your Arba Kanfos). Even so, this is an unreasonable expectation.

    #1033223
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Sam2:

    Haleivi and Little Froggie:

    I agree with both of you. If Rashi had said “due to the physical constraints of the concept of time it would be impossible for human beings to not get hanaah, as opposed to angels who are not bound by time and can simultaneously be wearing and not wearing the bigdei kehuna” then I would have no problem. But Rashi says that human beings are not zerizim to take off the begadim immediately. That’s a bit of a funny way to say that in a world bound by time it is impossible to be simultaneously wearing and not wearing the begadim.

    Sam2:

    I am not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?

    #1033224
    Sam2
    Participant

    PAA: They don’t have to be off the second the Avodah is done. You would just have to begin removing them as soon as the Avodah is done. Even so, that is an unfair expectation of human beings.

    #1033225
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Sam2:

    I hear what you’re saying. But I’m not sure that it’s the pashut pshat in Rashi. Rashi says “??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???”. Seemingly that means that the begadim would be off the moment the moment the avoda is complete.

    #1033226
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    It’s not about being on and off at the same time. It’s like the famous Reb Chaim about Makas Bechoros, that until Chatzos they were alive and the next second they wwere dead. Charzos itself doesn’t take time; it is the line between two seconds. Same here. Until the end of the Avoda it is on, and the first segment of time to be called after the Avoda is also the first segment of time with the Bigdei Kehuna.

    #1033227
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    But when do they take it off?

    #1033228
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Blink! It’s off. It doesn’t have to take time to take it off. They shed it instantly. It’s a matter of simply not wearing it anymore.

    #1033229
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Haleivi:

    You are reiterating what has been said earlier, namely that angels don’t require time to do things. I responded to this that Rashi doesn’t say that angels are supernatural beings who don’t operate within the conceptual realm of time whereas human beings cwho operate in a physical realm governed by the constraints of time cannot physically have the begadim off immediately; he says that angels are zarizim to take the begadim off right away whereas humans are not. I already agreed that this could be what Rashi meant, but that it is a bit of an odd way to say it. Hence I am still looking for a better pshat.

    #1033230
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    This has nothing to do with operating within or without time. Yes, Malachim have a concept of before, current, and later. They are created and don’t last forever. This is irrelivant, though. As Rashi says, it doesn’t take them time to get something done, since they are not physical. The instant the Avoda is over they clothing is off. No time goes by in between, since they are Zariz in the extreme, meaning that it comes off that instant.

    #1033231
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    It’s not because they are zariz; it’s because they have supernatural abilities. Unless you are saying that being able to take something off without any time passing is in fact not a supernatural ability but extreme zrizus.

    #1033232
    mobico
    Participant

    I’m with Erudite Sam on this one. What Rashi means is that it is an unreasonable expectation of Kohanim, as opposed to Malachim, to BEGIN removing their Bigdei Kehunah the very moment that the Avodah finishes. The “Hasha’ah” of Rashi refers to time after the Avodah has finished when the Bigdei are resting upon the Kohanim – as opposed to time when the Kohen is in the process of removing them.

    #1033233
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I definitely hear that more than Haleivi’s pshat (nothing personal).

    #1033234
    Sam2
    Participant

    PAA: Shoheh implies leaving it on. If I begin to take it off as fast as humanly possible, there is no Sh’hiyah before I begin to remove the Bigdei Kehunah.

    #1033235
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I thought of this thread as I was saying ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? on Rosh Hashanah.

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