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Sorry I’m a little late, but here goes:
Pashuteh Yid:
“This is the main problem: People like Avi Weiss and YCT believe that the primary point of the Torah is chesed, which is a very valid belief.
If that is the case, then it raises many difficulties in some of our practices, which are legitimate kashyas, just like any other kasha in any sugya.”
Well let’s think about this for a moment; if there are “legitimate kashyas” about any part of Yiddishkeit if one learns that “the primary point of the Torah is chesed”, then maybe that assumption is simply incorrect?
“For example, they grapple with how one can be commanded to kill a child of certain nations. This is a very serious question. It is compounded by the fact that simple answers like they will grow up to be wicked, is also a justification for the Nazis killing our children.”
I don’t see the question. Wiping out Amalek is right because Hashem said it is. Killing anybody else is wrong for the same reason.
“So it is very convenient for the Chareidi world to just smugly say that our religion says so, end of story. Because that raises questions as to how we look on in horror when an Islamic terrorist kills one of our children. He believes just as strongly that his religion is the only true one, and has commanded him to kill Jewish children R”L (case in point, the Fogel murders).”
He can believe whatever he wants, but he his beliefs are mistaken. Therefore, all of the actions undertaken in the name of these mistaken beliefs are objectively wrong.
“So while one may disagree with Avi Weiss’s answers or his approach to these difficult questions, but I highly doubt anybody from the Chareidi world has any answers at all.”
Well, you’re wrong.
“It is convenient to just ignore things that one doesn’t want to face, and go around smugly patting oneself on the back for being a very religious person.”
Really, it’s only a few days after Yom Kippur; can we try to keep the generalizing/bashing to minimum?
“yes, we cannot change halachos, but excess baggage that has no basis in halacha, like requiring people to dress in black and white, can be discarded for the sake of not turning people away.”
True. And if the most radical thing Avi Weiss did was wear a blue shirt (or a fluorescent orange shirt with pink polka dots, for that matter) then this conversation wouldn’t be happening. But that’s simply not the case.
Feif Un:
“The RCA has said that it doesn’t consider YCT a real yeshiva, and they’ve said that many things Avi Weiss does are wrong. They’ve been attacked for not doing more, not speaking out more often, etc. Why is that different than how chareidim treat NK?”
I have personally heard many Chareidi Rabbonim question the sanity of the NK more times than I can count.
(This is assuming that when you say NK you are referring to the wackos going around hugging murderers, not just the people who disregard the state of Israel. If I’m wrong, please let me know.)
mosheemes2:
“Can you name the Gadol of 1000 years ago R’ Weiss doesn’t respect?”
All of them. By completely disregarding everything that the past and present Gedolim and the Poskei haDor have or have not done, he is clearly showing that he does not believe that their opinions have any more weight than that of him and his ilk. That’s disrespect in my book.
yitayningwut:
“He (Saul Berman) is editor of at least one of the Artscroll siddurim”
Really? Do you know which one(s)?
Popa,
Ok, you’ve totally lost me. The claim that’s been made here repeatedly is that R Weiss et al lack respect for Rishonim, the Mechaber, and basically every Gadol since Moshe. I’ve been saying that my understanding of the position of everybody or virtually everybody on the left fringe of Orthodoxy is that the Gedolim of previous generations would have agreed with their innovations had they been alive today, and therefore, while they may be wrong, their wrongness has nothing to do with a sense that they’re entitled to disagree with the Mechaber (as they think he would agree with them).
The article from Saul Berman doesn’t just suggest that that’s true; it’s explicit in your excerpt. He admits that many people have suggested a reason for why women have different roles in Judaism, and rather than dismiss those views, he says he doesn’t believe that the people who expressed them actually held by them, You can think that that’s a dumb or just not particularly plausible opinion or that it’s kefira, but it means what it means and if he’d wanted to say it meant something else, I’m sure he has the vocabulary to do it.
“For example, they grapple with how one can be commanded to kill a child of certain nations. This is a very serious question. It is compounded by the fact that simple answers like they will grow up to be wicked, is also a justification for the Nazis killing our children.”
I don’t see the question. Wiping out Amalek is right because Hashem said it is. Killing anybody else is wrong for the same reason.
“So it is very convenient for the Chareidi world to just smugly say that our religion says so, end of story. Because that raises questions as to how we look on in horror when an Islamic terrorist kills one of our children. He believes just as strongly that his religion is the only true one, and has commanded him to kill Jewish children R”L (case in point, the Fogel murders).”
He can believe whatever he wants, but he his beliefs are mistaken. Therefore, all of the actions undertaken in the name of these mistaken beliefs are objectively wrong.
Spoken like a true believer. However, the Nazis were (and Hamas is) also true believers. You now have no Tainos against them, as they did what they believe(d) to be “objectively right”.
Or the other way I usually put it:
“For example, they grapple with how one can be commanded to kill a child of certain nations. This is a very serious question. It is compounded by the fact that simple answers like they will grow up to be wicked, is also a justification for the Jews killing our children.”
I don’t see the question. Wiping out Jews is right because Allah (Or Hitler) said it is (see Sahih Muslim). Killing anybody else is wrong for the same reason.
“So it is very convenient for the Wahabbi world to just smugly say that our religion says so, end of story. Because that raises questions as to how we look on in horror when an Israeli terrorist kills one of our children. He believes just as strongly that his religion is the only true one, and has commanded him to kill Arab children R”L.”
He can believe whatever he wants, but he his beliefs are mistaken. Therefore, all of the actions undertaken in the name of these mistaken beliefs are objectively wrong.
me2: Berman & company wouldn’t dare say outright in black and white what he feels, since he knows if he is brutally honest he will lose the people he is trying to entrap with his heresy.
Amused (and really this goes for everyone here, since this seems to be the underlying assumption being made),
You’re entitled to believe that, but then, and I mean no offense by this, you don’t really have anything useful to say about Modern Orthodoxy. Your problem with Saul Berman isn’t his stance on woman’s issues, it’s that he’s a liar and a heretic. And the answer to the question of why Avi Weiss is still a member of the RCA is that the RCA’s been promoting the work of a lying heretic since at least 1973 (Tradition being the RCA journal). Suffice it to say that the RCA does not see it that way.
Jothar wrote the position of the Moetzes on Weiss’s ordaining women. Here is the statement from the RCA:
In light of the opportunity created by advanced women’s learning, the Rabbinical Council of America encourages a diversity of halakhically and communally appropriate professional opportunities for learned, committed women, in the service of our collective mission to preserve and transmit our heritage. Due to our aforesaid commitment to sacred continuity, however, we cannot accept either the ordination of women or the recognition of women as members of the Orthodox rabbinate, regardless of the title.
That seems pretty clear cut, just as the Moetzes’s statement is.
do you think the amaleikim wont and shouldnt dislike us when you kill their children? let them hate us. we wont care. Hashem said to. your argument has no shaychis.
do you think the amaleikim wont and shouldnt dislike us when you kill their children? let them hate us. we wont care. Hashem said to. your argument has no shaychis.
It has no shaychus for those who sincerely believe that Hashem is in charge, and had the Holocaust not happened, the 6 million would have died in another way. No Shaychus for those who believe that Hitler was a tool of the Ribbono Shel Olam, just like Paraoh (who granted, there is a discussion why Paraoh is blamed for something that Hashem decreed, but that is a different issue).
However, for the “never again” crowd, for those who blame the Hamases & Nazis of the world as if they have their own power and they are not a tool of Hashem, for them the arguement is strong. Because logically they are correct, based on their own reasoning. And on that point, you cannot blame them.
Who cares about what those antisemites and others think. They’ll hate us regardless of whether there is reason to or not. (There isn’t.) Besides, one is a theoretical passage that no one uses to kill anyone (we don’t know who the Amaleikim are), and the other is murderers actually killing people today.
GAW- i think this ios the first time we ever agreed on something lol. what i mean is that if this dude theorieticaly believes in Hashem then its on thing to let women daven for the amud; quite another to wrip pesukim out of the klaf.
GAW:
“Spoken like a true believer. However, the Nazis were (and Hamas is) also true believers. You now have no Tainos against them, as they did what they believe(d) to be “objectively right”.”
No, I have a massive taynah against them; because their base belief is incorrect, everything they do in its name is wrong. And yes, I know they will say the same thing about us. So what it boils down to is who’s beliefs are right and who’s are wrong.
Put it this way: Two people have a first-class ticket on an airplane – for the same seat. The question of who gets the meals, who gets to sit, etc. are all dependent upon who’s ticket is real and who’s isn’t.
And yes, I realize that until Moshiach comes it will be impossible to convince the rest of the world that their base beliefs are wrong, but ani ma’amin bi’emunah shelaimah that this is the case. Therefore, I can and will live my life knowing that I have the real ticket, and therefore everything I do is completely justified.
No, I have a massive taynah against them; because their base belief is incorrect, everything they do in its name is wrong. And yes, I know they will say the same thing about us. So what it boils down to is who’s beliefs are right and who’s are wrong.
Put it this way: Two people have a first-class ticket on an airplane – for the same seat. The question of who gets the meals, who gets to sit, etc. are all dependent upon who’s ticket is real and who’s isn’t.
And yes, I realize that until Moshiach comes it will be impossible to convince the rest of the world that their base beliefs are wrong, but ani ma’amin bi’emunah shelaimah that this is the case. Therefore, I can and will live my life knowing that I have the real ticket, and therefore everything I do is completely justified.
Exactly. The action flows from the belief, so only the belief is challenged, not the resulting actions (directly).
AKA, Lishitasam, they are correct.
GAW- i think this ios the first time we ever agreed on something
I can think of at least a few more (such as the conservative thread last week). As far as the main point of the thread, I disagree with R’ Adlerstein, but only because who cares what the RCA thinks? Not me. Now if my Rov, Rebbe, Rosh, Moshgiach or Posek said something about it (such as with the Hechser Tzedek thing), then I’d probably care. In the meantime, they have to do what they think Hashem wants, and I will do what I believe Hashem wants.
GAW:
“Lishitasam, they are correct.”
Lishitasam they will always be correct, no matter what we do or say. That does not concern me. I only care how I can be right in wanting to wipe out Amalek, while the Muslims are wrong in wanting to wipe out the Jews. And I believe that problem is answered.
PY: Because that raises questions as to how we look on in horror when an Islamic terrorist kills one of our children. He believes just as strongly that his religion is the only true one, and has commanded him to kill Jewish children R”L (case in point, the Fogel murders).”
MW13: Lishitasam they will always be correct, no matter what we do or say. That does not concern me. I only care how I can be right in wanting to wipe out Amalek, while the Muslims are wrong in wanting to wipe out the Jews. And I believe that problem is answered.
So you do not look on in horror, but are comforted that your religion is correct, and theirs is wrong?
“So you do not look on in horror”
Whatever makes you think that?
Whatever makes you think that?
That does not concern me. I only care how I can be right in wanting to wipe out Amalek, while the Muslims are wrong in wanting to wipe out the Jews.
GAW- as long as your rebbe doesnt say anyhting…i wrote before, and i propose now, that your misreading; the reason why main stream rabbonim havent come out in force is because the majority of torah observing, Hashem fearing jews know this guys a wacko without any formal instruction.
GAW- as long as your rebbe doesnt say anyhting…i wrote before, and i propose now, that your misreading; the reason why main stream rabbonim havent come out in force is because the majority of torah observing, Hashem fearing jews know this guys a wacko without any formal instruction.
Agreed (although wacko may be too strong, “misguided” may be nicer). Also I am decently sure (but not positive) that my Rov doesn’t belong to the RCA.
No Jew is killing any Amaleiki’s. We don’t even know who they are! So what is this pathetic comparison between Arabs killing Jews to Jews killing Amaleiki’s? They don’t. It is today only a theological concept in theory, not practice like how Muslim terrorists murder infidels.
GAW:
What I meant to say is that it does not concern me that they can falsely claim that they are right; as long as I can feel comfortable that I’m doing what is actually right I’m happy. I by no means meant that what the muslim terrorists are doing to our brethren does not concern me.
jothar- if its the guys that cant tel the dif. between orthodoxy and weissism that we’re worried about, then either way theyd find something. conservative for example.
R’ Lieberman makes an assumption in metzius there that the title Rav implies a fitness to judge. I can’t say I’ve read, or have any interest in reading his proofs for this, or in debating Conservative movement hashkafa on this site, but R’ Weiss certainly disagrees about that metzius and certainly (and reasonably) sees nothing wrong with arguing about it. It’s just objectively true that the person working as the assistant to the Rabbi of a Modern Orthodox shul, whatever their gender or title, has significantly less authority than basically anyone who’s ever held the title Rabbi in any community ever. I still disagree with R’ Weiss, but at least it’s worth trying to understand what he’s saying.
And R’ Weiss would disagree with you about that (if he didn’t would those words sound as carefully chosen as they do?). You can think he’s wrong, but you can’t think he doesn’t care about the Rambam.
Or he could hold like R’ Soloveitchik that the Rambam is a Da’as Yachid in this issue.
jothar- so nwhats the dilemma? what youre saying is- do we still agree that the torah is binding and unalterable or not. thats one of the 13 ikrim- why is the decision so difficult?
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