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These days even in baal habatishe circles the norm has become that the music at a bar mitzvah be djs playing club style music with strobe lights flashing. It’s safe to say that the origins of this type of scene does not come from the Alte Heim. Are there any rabbonim saying anything about this?
Btw I like the header
Darchei Torah’s policy for the students is that it isn’t allowed
I noticed this recent trend too. Interestingly I don’t see it in Chasidish circles. Can anyone explain why they haven’t fallen for this?
To the best of my recollection, the expression “More Bar than Mitzvah” was coined by Rav Meir Kahane HY”D. It was reference to elaborate BM parties (mostly by the Reform and Conservative). I personally feel if Dvrei Torah are spoken and the music is Torani, the lights if kept brief, are not a big deal.
What exactly is the Alte Heim?
The Alte Heim is Yiddish for the “old home”. It is referring to when most Yidden lived in Europe in the Shtetl.
The shtetl life mostly ended by the mid 19th century
Why does someone tagged by the FBI as head of terrorist group and a self-identified racist get invoked as some type of prescient observer of the decline of Yiddeshkeit in America??
For many of us, the excesses of some Chassideshe simchas involving thousands of people with bands, banners and tables overflowing with food and drink are a lot more problematic than some frum parents who engage a DJ with some strobe lights for their yinglach’s bar mitzvah.FYI a dj usually comes out cheaper than a full band, and is just as lively if not more. Now I’m not saying that shaking and wiggling to hip hop/ reggae is the way to usher in your Ol malchus, but these are the times….
Meir kahana saw as much truth aa truth social
AVD: Umein.
Well of course they didn’t have strobe lights in 19th century European villages. But neither did they have keyboards or cameras. Or running water….
“For many of us, the excesses of some Chassideshe simchas involving thousands of people with bands, banners and tables overflowing with food and drink are a lot more problematic than some frum parents who engage a DJ with some strobe lights for their yinglach’s bar mitzvah.“
How so?
Goyish Jewish music is better than an abundance of food for guests? I’ve never heard anyone go off the derech from eating too much, I have heard though through listening to goyish music
FYI a dj usually comes out cheaper than a full band, and is just as lively if not more. Now I’m not saying that shaking and wiggling to hip hop/ reggae is the way to usher in your Ol malchus, but these are the times….
The Alte Heim was a mythical place where every Jew was a Torah Scholar, even the ignorant ones
Coffee Addict,
Do you think Gdorah’s problem is the food? No, it is the Chassidim. He sees Chasidim and its bad.
If you came to the not Frum Bat Mitzvahs I attend you wouldn’t be complaining. Most of the dresses don’t have enough material to make a Shpitzel.
Rav avigdor miller did NOT support meit kahana. He said “you should know that he’s a shomer torah umitzvos” – calling someone an average jew is not an endorsement. Read his hashkofa seforim if you want to know what rav Miller held of zionism and militant baryonism
Kuvult, and who told you you’re allowed to attend such events?
Rav Miller was opposed to Kahane’s activities.
My Rabbi. Most are my wife’s coworkers & not showing up wouldn’t be helpful.
Kuvult, interesting…Some “rabbis” let frum women post videos on social media of themselves singing and singing and dancing, there was a as “frum rabbi” who told a policeman who was a concert that since his work is important he can work on Shabbos, and now I see a “rabbi” letting people go to these mixed and untnziusdige parties.. these so-called “rabbis” are Conservodox, not Orthodox, because Orthodox rabbis are we supposed to rule according to Torah law, not their own ideologies and feelings.
As the previous lubavitcher rebbe said it “America is nisht andresh!” America its no diffrent. Amongst all the Jews claiming the ease of Jewish life in America the previous rebbe saw the assimilation in the rise and declared it no better then the progroms.
The general p’sak given to people who need to attend simchos, to preserve peace in the family, in which the soton is merakec beinayhem is that it’s allowed if you just stop by. To sit with mixed dancing is something I don’t think there’s any heter for.
Ask your rabbi if he’d have any trouble with you attending a simcha of neturei karta (the extreme ones, the guys who hug arafat) which will be full of israeli flag burning. Are you allowed to show up to preserve relationships with co-workers?
You’re not going to do it, but I’d love to hear what he has to say
Philosopher,
That’s not kuvult’s problem, he did what he was supposed to do, ask his Rav, he got a heter, his Rav will be held accountable not him
CA: And if Kuvult’s “rabbi” said he can eat pork when he’s traveling out of town on business to an area where there’s no kosher restaurants, if he follows that “psak” he’ll be scot-free in Shamayim?
ca, in shomayim everyone is forced to take personal responsibility. No one can blame their “rabbi” who “paskened” against halacha. And no rabbi can give a get that goes against halacha. A heter to do what is not as one’s minhug or according to daas Yehudis can be found in certain circumstances based on halacha, not against halacha.
I meant to write that a “frum Rabbi” told a convert, not concert as I mistakenly wrote, he can work on Shabbos because his work as a cop was very important…
Sorry, I need to clarify my mistakes again. I wish there was edit button for comments…I meant to write that no rabbi can give a heter that contradicts halacha.. A heter can allow a person to do differently than one’s minhug is or daas Yehudis but it based on halacha. It is against halacha to mingle with the other gender at parties, certainly when they dress pritzusdig, there is no heter in the world, based on halacha, that can allow such mingling
more band noise than bar than mitzvah
We all may be underestimating breadth of halachik opinions. I just got a newletter with a shaila about gnevat daas trying to encourage customers to give more tips by pretending others did so! They asked 4 (four) poskim and all gave different answers – asur, mutar, improper, can do it if not so obvious. The one who said “asur” then agreed with the one who suggested making it no so obvious. Possibly same here. Presuming Kuvult has a serious Rav, he might have good reasons to permit. Maybe he takes into account Kuvult’s tzidkus that all of them are like white geese (as w/ R Yohanan) or his failing eyesight, or that his wife may make his life impossible and he will not be able to learn for a week. We don’t know and it is aint our business. Ask your Rav and possibly he’ll tell you to never do it based on how he saw your glances towards the mehitza during davening.
Always, so are you trying to say that for various reasons it’s ok for a man to mingle at social events with pritzusdig dressed women? That’s Conservodox/Conservative “Judaism” where everything people do is ok regardless of halacha, mesorag or minhugim as long as one has a “valid reason” to do what he desires to do …
I had a Shabbos bar mitzvah – a sit down lunch after davening, with a few speeches, some dancing and that was it. No music, no photographers.
5T: You made that BM or you attended it?
phil > so are you trying to say that for various reasons it’s ok
I am not paskening in this forum in the presence of so many gedolim. What I am saying, that I can imagine K’s Rav telling K that he can attend a certain event under certain conditions. This does not mean that the Rav will be calling the whole shul to attend all events regardless…
As an example, I was once invited by a Reform “Rabbi” and a female clergy to assist them in a “mitzva” of affixing a “mezuza” to a “Jewish” family of “immigrants”. I am running out of quotes … l’tzad zhut, maybe they were marronos, but the clergy was not bilingual enough to figure it out anyway. I was ready to politely reject the offer, but then decided to bother a local (chasidishe) Rav and ask him. To my shock, he suggested that I go. And to my further shock, I actually went… I won’t bother you with details of his reasoning, this was particular to the case, but this is an illustration of how strange psak might be.
Yes, correct! More Bar than Mitzvah, it hurts to say, but that is the fact in some cases, it’s time to change, and let’s rewind to the good old days, where a “Bar Mitzvah” was a “Bar Mitzvah”, and a “Bar” was a “Bar” full of shame and ugliness, a yid did not walk on the same street where there was a bar, a Yiddish Simcha full of real joy and a Ruchnius Chanoch for this 13 years old boy, this is what a “Bar Mitzvah” is meant to be, a “Bar-Mitsvah is not an affair where big daddy should show off ‘his’ deep pockets, and expel all of ‘his’ geshem! a bar mitsvah is made for the Bucher itself, big daddy should give a sense of what an Ehrlich yid should be, let there be Simchas by Yidden, “Simcha with pure ruchnius Simcha” without any unhealthy ingredient!
“To sit with mixed dancing is something I don’t think there’s any heter for.”
What would be the issur of sitting next to mixed dancing? Assuming he isn’t looking at it?
You through out halachos but you need sources.Marxist, what’s wrong with ordering a drink in a topless bar if you won’t look?
@Marxist : kuvult implied that he saw the girls’ dress.
If you don’t need to be there, then it’s ika darka achrina. Kuvult implied that he needed to be at the simcha.
I recommend learning the sugya.
Marxist, if it was the only available facility, you’d go into a topless bar to use the bathroom?
Marx, when you’re walking on a path, you’re not sitting in the spot where the women are washing bekevius. An extreme display of pritzus, such as mixed dancing, is something that’s also far worse than women washing clothes
edited
Honestly, I never heard of such a thing as a “topless bar”? Do you mean a strip club?
Would I? Probably not. Does that means it’s assur to do so? No
@AviraDeArah
Actually Rav Moshe applies that gemara to someone who needs to go to the beach and would be around pritzus, not just walking through. See Igros Moshe Even Haezer 1:56, especially the beginning and end of the teshuva.Avira > mixed dancing, is something that’s also far worse than women washing clothes
We are talking about actual washing clothes in a river rather than using a washing machine, right? I am not sure you either saw or know how to do that.
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