Mozzarella cheese doesn't need hashgacha?

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  • #609819
    gadfly_gadi
    Member

    A couple very learned yeshivish friends recently told me that rennet-free mozzarella cheese and any other soft cheese is kosher and isn’t considered halachically gevinas akum and like milk ala r’ moshe doesn’t need hashgacha. Is the kehilla over on ba’al tosif for requiring hashgacha on these items?

    #964513
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Rav Abadi certainly holds that way. Rav Abadi is a posek in Lakewood.

    Soft cheeses don’t need gevinat yisrael, and if mozzarella has no mozzarella, I wouldn’t see the issue. I’ve made mozzarella before, with milk, salt,

    An interesting she’eila is whether cheese that is made with rennet, but the rennet is added not by human hands, but in an automated process by machine, would be considered kasher. Polly-O with the “KD” bore the supervision of an uindistingusihed rabbi who held that the fact the rennet was added by an automated process rendered it not gevinat akum.

    #964514
    ilovetorah
    Participant

    Although it MAY not be problem of gvinas akum, and even if you hold like r moshe that chalav stam is muttar, I fail to understand why you think it would not need a hechsher at all. Who says there are no non kosher ingredients in it? Who says it was not produced on non kosher keilim?

    #964515
    MDG
    Participant

    ” Rav Abadi is a posek in Lakewood. “

    According to his web site, he’s been in Jerusalem for a while. Anyways, I asked a friend of mine, who works for the OU, about Rabbi Abadi. He told me that Rabbi Abadi is a tremendous scholar, but lacks industrial kashrut knowledge. The following is an example of that.

    I looked at his (really their – including Rabbi Abadi’s sons) web site and found a “teshuva” where he (not sure which one) said that since wine is all processed by machines, then there is no need for “kosher” wines. That answer was dated 2002. I asked a friend of mine about it. This friend is a ger whose family makes non-kosher wines. He told me that they indeed handle the wine, test it, etc. I went back to the web site for further research and found a retraction of that teshuva dated 2003.

    Back to the original question. The ideas expressed given by ilovetorah are what I would say.

    #964516
    Annonymouschochom
    Participant

    I hope this question is theoretical- not l’maaseh. If it is l’maaseh, you should pose this question to a kashrus organization like the cRc Chicago. They do not have a problem telling people which products do not require certification.

    The Lakewood posek quoted above has many leniencies which are not accepted by almost any of the reliable kashrus organizations.

    #964517
    gadfly_gadi
    Member

    Is there a halacha that states that major kashrut organizations have any more of an authority to decide what’s kosher than other learned rabbis?

    I recently read R’ Aviner’s (Rosh Yeshiva of Ateres Yerushalaim) statement on this matter:

    “Question: What difference is there between all the hechsherim (Kashrut supervisions) on food products? I heard people making fun of hechsherim of the local rabbinate, claiming that the food is not kosher, and casting aspersions on the rabbis who grant the hechsher. I am a simple, naive woman, and I have been told that in order to become a rabbi you have to study Torah for many years and to take difficult tests. If there is really a difference between hechsherim, then an injustice is being committed against those people who place their faith in the kashrut certificate of a local rabbinate. Is an entire population that trusts those rabbis being deceived? Am I sinning when I purchase a chicken with the hechsher of the local rabbinate?

    Answer: All of the hechsherim from a real rabbi are valid. Every simple G-d fearing Jew is presumed reputable, and one can eat his food without question, and this applies all the more so with a Torah scholar. After all, there is a standing presumption that a Torah scholar “does not allow food to leave his domain without its kashrut being ensured” (Niddah 15b). G-d forbid that a torah scholar should feed the Jewish People non-kosher food! This thought is itself the height of unkosher thinking. There could be no greater denigration of Torah scholars than this. Even if aspersions are cast against a particular hechsher, it is forbidden to believe them. Rather, they must be rejected as Lashon Hara, evil speech, of the most abominable sort. Even if the supervising rabbi himself concedes that there are problems with the hechsher that he gives, it makes no difference whatsoever. Despite his having said that there are problems, he still signed the word “kosher” on the product, signifying that he had determined that the problem had a solution. Even if that rabbi announces, “I do not eat food with my own hechsher,” it means nothing. It is the way of torah scholars to be strict regarding themselves and lenient regarding others.

    In a word, any food product that is marketed with the hechsher of a rabbi, whether Haredi or Zionist, whether from Eretz Yisrael or from abroad, is kosher. Obviously, however, as with everything else, one has the option of taking the strict approach. Regarding this it said, “Whoever takes the strict approach shall enjoy a blessing. Whoever takes the lenient approach has support for his action.” A person is not obligated to undertake all the strictures in the world.

    It is a voluntary matter. Everyone can adopt whatever strictures he wishes, in kashrut, Shabbat, guarding the tongue, or treating others with respect, in choosing to serve in an elite army unit or moving to a front line settlement, in deeds of kindness or righteousness. The possibilities are endless. It is the personal choice of each individual. Thus, if it turns out that a particular food is “just kosher” while a second one is “mehadrin” [more exacting supervision], the person who takes the stricter approach will enjoy a blessing. An example of something being “just kosher” might be where there is a disagreement among our sages and while most permit something, a minority forbid it, hence the Rabbinical decisors deemed it permissible. Certainly, if someone takes the strict approach and eats only what all the rabbis permitted, that is preferable. Even so, it is forbidden to denigrate those who do not hold to this stricture. There is nothing more disgraceful than to make fun of a hechsher and of the rabbis who gave it.

    Indeed, many Torah scholars customarily keep severe strictures at home, yet when they are invited to the homes of others, they eat without hesitation any food that has a hechsher. By doing so they fulfill the great mitzvah of increasing the honor of the sages, which is a foundation that the Jewish People rely upon.

    All the Hechsherim are Kosher

    Rabbi Shlomo Aviner

    Question: Numerous times you have written that all of the hechsherim [Kashrut certifications] are kosher. I think you are naive and unaware of what is really going on. If you knew how many foul-ups occur in this regard in food production, and even more so in restaurants, you would not express yourself this way.

    Answer: With bakeries and restaurants, each place must be examined on its own merits. I was talking about factories in which there is a set production process. In all modesty, I am well aware of the reality, and I still say that if a Torah scholar took responsibility and wrote “kosher,” then the product is indeed kosher, and let no one dare say that rabbis are feeding the Jewish People non-kosher food.

    Question: When a consumer sees a hechsher on a package, how can he know whether the person giving the hechsher is really a Torah scholar? Perhaps he is just a layman masquerading as a rabbi?

    Answer: If the consumer does not know that rabbi, he should check it out. If the rabbi is the rabbi of a city, or part of a recognized kashrut organization or a city rabbinate, then he is certainly a genuine Torah scholar.

    Question: I have encountered instances in which a product has a hechsher but it turns out that the factory is forging it. Is the product still kosher?

    Answer: Obviously, if a counterfeiter forges a rabbi’s signature, this lacks the force of a hechsher. Yet this has nothing to do with the question of whether all hechshers are kosher. Even if they forge the signature of the strictest rabbi in the world, the product will not be kosher.

    Question: A rabbi was giving a hechsher to a large and prominent food production plant and it turned out that he had no idea what was going on there. In another plant a lot of bugs were found in the product.

    There was a case in which a rabbi did not check whether a particular fruit was “orla” [from a tree in its first four years, hence forbidden (Leviticus 19:23-25)]. In a certain factory in which all the non-Jewish workers worked on the Sabbath, the mashgiach [kashrut supervisor] could not check out the ingredients being delivered on the Sabbath. There are known cases of rabbis who gave hechsherim until the Chief Rabbinate discovered oversights and appointed other mashgichim over the original ones.

    Answer: I didn’t say that mistakes never happen. My point is only that throughout the Torah we rely on the principles of “rov” [the majority factor] and “chazakah” [the presumption that a previous state continues]. Every person known to be a Torah scholar is presumed reputable until proven otherwise. If a rumor circulates that there is an oversight, that rumor must be investigated. If one has dealings with a rabbi and he behaves questionably, the situation changes. Surely a rabbi who gives a hechsher without checking out what is happening forfeits his chazakah unless he duly repents.

    Question: In one factory, when the rabbi arrives they prepare him a large package of products from that factory, and then everything goes smoothly. It is likewise known that there are rabbis who have

    appointed as kashrut supervisors their relatives and friends, people who lack any of the appropriate training for the job, and these people work unsupervised. There was even a case of a nonobservant person being appointed.

    Answer: I do not understand these questions. Sometimes it is discovered that a particular rabbi is unethical, that he is a thief, a cheat or an adulterer. Do all rabbis forfeit their chazakah as a result? The concept of presumed good repute does not mean one hundred percent certainty like in mathematics. It only means that the Torah decreed that we can rely on certain presumptions, and even that we can put someone to death on the basis of a chazakah. Likewise, a Torah scholar has a chazakah so long as there is no proof otherwise.

    Certainly, if someone writes “kosher” on a nonkosher product, he is unworthy of the title “rabbi,” but as long as no such thing has been proven, the food is presumed kosher.

    Question: There are even great and reputable Torah scholars who have been deceived by factory owners or who sometimes err in their rulings. In such cases, is the hechsher still kosher?

    Answer: Even a real Torah scholar sometimes errs. Why did you not ask me about the case at the beginning of Tractate Horiot, where the Sanhedrin ruled that a certain food was kosher and everybody ate from it, and it ultimately turned out that it had been a mistake? In that case, the rabbis had to bring an offering. Why did you not ask if that food was kosher? When all is said and done, the Shulchan Aruch rules that we can eat in the home of any Jew who has a chazakah of observance.

    Question: Is it that in order to strengthen the Chief Rabbinate of Israel it is permissible to eat food that is not so kosher?

    Answer: It isn’t like that. To address your point, there is certainly a mitzvah to strengthen “the judge who will be in that time” (Deuteronomy 17:9). That verse, however, is teaching that any rabbi, and not just one connected to the Chief Rabbinate, is presumed reputable.”

    #964518
    kasher
    Participant

    ilovetorah- You are so correct! Who would have thought that 100% pure Butter could be 100% non kosher- that is due the the legal adulteration of blending with Whey Cream and/or Cook Water Cream.

    If there is one suggestion I would strongly advise to posters AND Poskim- PLEASE learn the “metzius” before commenting.

    Re; Harav Moshe’s heter for Cholov Stam- he himself was makpid on Cholov Yisroel. Today there are even more reasons to be makpid as “the envelope has been pushed” quite a bit from the original lenience’s (- DA Cows. Yisroel Ro’ei’hu, accepting milk from countries with corrupt governments, etc.).

    #964519
    akuperma
    Participant

    But with anything that is manufactured, you need a hecksher since manufacturers toss all sorts of stuff as additives.

    And if it isn’t really cheese, can you trust a company that is passing off something as cheese which isn’t.

    #964520
    truthsharer
    Member

    Since most cheeses today use a vegetable based rennet, is that considered “halachic” cheese?

    As for hechsherim go, all of us today are basing our kashrus model on one posek, sort of a yeish machmirim. IIRC, it was the RASHBA, but we are not really (according to halacha) worried about cockamany scenarios from a company making food products.

    #964521
    benignuman
    Participant

    Rabbi Abadi’s distinction is between cheeses that have some kind of rennet (even non-animal rennet) and those that do not. Cheeses that require rennet were subject to the Gezeira and cheeses that do not require rennet were not subject to the Gezeira.

    Rav Moshe holds like this as well and I believe (but would like confirmation) this is the shita followed by the OU.

    I believe Rabbi Abadi used to be machmir and held that all cheeses were subject to the gezeira of gevinas akum and he only recently (past 8 years or so) changed his mind and to hold like Rav Moshe.

    #964522
    benignuman
    Participant

    I should point out that the answers on that website are coming from Rabbi Abadi’s sons. Except where they specifically write “I asked my father” you cannot necessarily trust that Rabbi Abadi holds that way as well.

    I recall when the “bugs in NY water” issue arose, one of the sons said it wasn’t a problem and then the other son asked Rabbi Abadi and Rabbi Abadi wrote a teshuva saying it was a problem.

    #964523
    rebdoniel
    Member

    The Nodah Be Yehuda (YD Mah. Tin. 56) was asked about the kashrut status of a certain alcoholic drink that used non-kosher animal meat as part of the production process. He paskened that as the non-kosher ingredient was totally insignificant in the final product and did not add to the taste of the same – the ingredient was considered nullified (batel) and the final product kosher. As to the prohibition of purposefully nullifying a prohibited product- Noda Be Yehuda ruled that as the drink was manufactured by non-Jews for non-Jews – there could not be placed on a non-Jew any prohibition and one only had to look at the final product. If however the product was being manufactured by Jews then the product would be considered not kosher. The Nodah Be Yehuda rules that anything that is permissible be diavad in a Jewish home is permissible le chatchila if produced by a non-Jew for non-Jews.

    Many centuries earlier the Rashba dealt with a similar problem. It involved a particular food that used miniscule amounts of non-kosher vinegar in the course of production. The Rashba ruled that the product remained forbidden. He argued that the laws of nullification apply only when an ingredient falls into a product accidentally. If however it was put in on purpose then regardless of the amount and regardless of whether done by Jew or non-Jew the product remains not kosher. Indeed the Nodah Be Yehuda acknowledges the Rashba – but dismisses him. He argues that the Halakha is not like the Rashba but rather like the Rambam(whom the Nodah Be Yehuda posits disagrees with the Rashba.)

    Rav Henkin, IIRC, said that this Rashba is the basis for much of the kashrut business nowadays.

    In America, though, he said that when you have one brand of an iten under hashgaha and one not under hashgaha, you must buy the one with the hashgaha. The Ktav Sofer said that one may rely on this leniency of the Rambam/Noda beYehuda only when there is no equivalent product available at the same price – but if there is an equivalent product available then one should be machmir and purchase a product that has not relied on this leniency.

    If a company is producing a product for the general non-Jewish market, and the company does not request certification nor does it pay for it – but rather allows the kashrut agency to investigate the product and list it as kosher – then Halakhically one may rely on nullification and other leniencies that would normally be allowed only post facto in the home of a Jew, according to Kashrut Authority in Australia.

    In other countries, they rely on these kashrut lists. R’ Abadi does exactly that- he investigates items to see if they are really kosher. Furthermore, R’ Shimon Efrati, a top Rabbanut kashrut official, authored an article in Pardes 40: 3 (pp. 12-13) endorsing the same viewpoint as R’ Abadi. In other countries, R’ Abadi’s approach seems to be accepted more or less, as evidenced in the fact that there are companies that consider the kosher market as totally insignificant in places like the UK, Australia, etc. – and they give permission to have their products checked. They expect no significant increase in turnover whatsoever. In such cases nullification may be employed, or at least a less thorough sub ingredient check, as well as some other leniencies mentioned in the poskim, according to an article by Kashrut Authority Australia.

    I had a discussion regarding a “K” appearing on items with someone the other day, and it turns out that in a few cases, the K actually indicates some form of rabbinical supervision, but that depends on each company involved. Kellogg’s cereals with a K/KD are really KVH, ShopRite’s kashrut guide lists R’ Dov Hazdan, R’ Sheldon Goldsmith, R’ Benjamin Weinblatt (Plaza Torah Center/Bais Yechezkel in Queens), and even R’ Nota Greenblatt as those who supervise specific items produced by ShopRite. A few gelatin brands even post such letters on their websites (R’ Goldsmith supervises Royal Bbrand gelatin, which relies on the heter of the Ahiezer, which is also how the Rabbanut holds).

    #964524
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    R’ Nota Greenblat is behind the K on tabasco sauce

    #964525
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I should add that the sources I presented in defense of R’ Abadi’s views are not heterim I personally allow in our home. As the article I paraphrased from Kashrut Authority Australia points out, the position that is taken in other countries with kashrut lists is not something we should avail ourselves of in America, since we have the most exhaustive kosher food available outside of Israel.

    That being said, since cheese is often difficult to procure outside of major Jewish areas with a strict hechsher, the mozzarella issue ought to be probed further. However, we’re fortunate that the Polly-O company has gone under the OU. Cabot and all the brands with the Luhot is another matter entirely.

    #964526
    yehudayona
    Participant

    Rabbi Aviner is talking about the situation in Eretz Yisrael. In the United States, there are people who use the title Rabbi who are not well-versed in halacha (and in fact, there are “rabbis” who don’t really believe in halacha). So when he says “If the consumer does not know that rabbi, he should check it out,” kal v’chomer in America.

    #964528
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I don’t know of one Reform or other non-halakhic rabbi offering kashrut supervision in this country. Ii’ve actually started compiling a list of items with a K where the K is actually indicative of rabbinic supervision.

    Why was it considered acceptable to rely on reading ingredients 40-50 years ago by very frum people, but not so much anymore? Is it because of the huge array of items with a hechsher available nowadays?

    #964530

    No, it is because food is significantly more processed now than it was 50 years ago.

    #964531
    rebdoniel
    Member

    That is one reason given, but apparently, this method still is deemed appropriate by rabbis in foreign countries, where their food is just as processed as it is here. How did and why did the Rashba’s shita become de rigueur? Why does nobody hold like the Noda be Yehuda here these days (except Rav Abadi and maybe a few others)? Largely in America, this is irrelevant, since I’d say that at least 70-80% of processed food items have some kind of a hechsher (whether it be one of the Big Five, a K that actually has rabbinical supervision behind it, such as R’ Greenblatt on hot sauce, or R’ Zevulun Charlop on Starbuck’s drinks, or R’ Goldsmith on Royal gelatin, or a hechsher that is less respected by the olam, such as the Luchot K, UKS, Triangle K, etc.)

    If you hold like the OP or like Rav Abadi that cheeses made with an automated system aren’t gevinat akum, than that would obviously open the floodgates.

    #964532

    Many foreign countries do indeed use less processing than America, whether because they are less developed or because they have different laws governing the production of food.

    India is one example. I have also heard that it is okay to eat “street food” in places like France and the Netherlands when the machine is only used to make a certain thing, e.g. French fries (potatoes and extra virgin olive oil are always kosher and fries would never be served at a state dinner).

    #964533
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I’ve heard that, as well, that in Belgium, if a vendor only sells frites, than a Jew could eat there. In India, the Hindus are strict vegetarians. I was referring to factory production, but otoh, I did recently see an article which said that certain additives and chemicals used in our processed foods are not permitted for use in countries like the UK, where the idea of foods without a hechsher but with rabbinical endorsement is prevalent.

    There are certain vegan food items that are produced in America without a hechsher that I’d like some kashrut rabbis to look into. There are artisanal vegan cheeses, vegan Field Roast, May Wah meat substitutes, and other items that would be very convenient if available kosher. Likewise, items like almond flour, coconut flour, tapioca-based GF baking mixes, etc. should be investigated, as having these kitniyot-free items available for Passover would make life far easier (imagine having a decent loaf of Gluten Free bread as an option on Pesah, instead of matzah at every meal).

    #964534
    gadfly_gadi
    Member

    Interesting

    #964535
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “In a word, any food product that is marketed with the hechsher of a rabbi, whether Haredi or Zionist, whether from Eretz Yisrael or from abroad, is kosher.”

    Interesting….

    I hereby announce, that effective immediately, I am hanging out my shingle and offering a new kosher supervision under the name Rabbi Apushatayid. According to the website cited, you should have no problem relying on my supervision, since I am a) a Rabbi (I sent away 17 box tops and received my certification last week), b)Haredi and Zionist (which is surely better than haredi or zionist) and c) I am either from Israel, or abroad (on my letter head I will use one address from E’Y and one from abroad to cover all my bases). You will find my certification on everything from agar to ziti and everything in between. B’Teiavon.

    #964536
    gadfly_gadi
    Member

    Cool

    #964537
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    apushatayid, I have news for you. Your kosher supervision has been in business for a while and everybody who has ever eaten in your home has relied on it.

    Also please note, you dont need to be a Rabbi. The din is not “Rav echad neeman bissurim”

    Also keep in mind. If food is kosher there is no need for a formal hechsher, and if not all hechsherim in the world won’t help.

    #964538
    Nechomah
    Participant

    RD – While your idea of gluten-free bread might be a good idea after Pesach, when everybody has had enough matza for a while, I am sure you are aware that the Vilna Gaon holds that each kezias of matza you eat during Pesach is a separate mitzva, so if you want to satisfy your appetite, go ahead and make GF bread from products that will hopefully have a hechsher by next Pesach, but if there is a higher purpose to our eating than just stuffing our boich and whetting our palate, I would just as soon stick with matza. Maybe others would agree with me.

    #964539
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I hold like you do. It’s important to eat matzah each day of Pesah. However, that doesn’t mean that matzah is the only food that should be eaten; many frum Jews don’t even eat anything made from matzah. There’s no good reason why a widely-available, lower-priced GF KFP bread couldn’t be made available to the public. And not the KFP bread products made from potato starch that cost $10 a loaf nowadays. Some Sephardic rabbis allow us to eat Udi’s GF bread on Pesah, anyways. No reason why a bread made from tapioca or coconut flour couldn’t be marketed to the public for Pesah.

    #964540
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    RD,

    “No reason why a bread made from tapioca or coconut flour couldn’t be marketed to the public for Pesah.”

    so who is stopping you? If you beleive that to be the case, go for it!

    #964541
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also keep in mind. If food is kosher there is no need for a formal hechsher

    The question is how to know it’s kosher.

    #964542
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I would just as soon stick with matza.”

    One can always eat certified gluten free oat matzah.

    “No reason why a bread made from tapioca or coconut flour couldn’t be marketed to the public for Pesah.”

    At least two companies already do. Manishewitz and Yehuda both market for Pesach and all Year certified gluten free “matza style squares” whose bracha is shehakol.

    #964543
    Ðash®
    Participant

    How did and why did the Rashba’s shita become de rigueur? Why does nobody hold like the Noda be Yehuda here these days (except Rav Abadi and maybe a few others)?

    Those that hold like the Noda B’Yehdah aren’t in the Kashrus industry.

    #964544
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    Exactly my point!

    Of course if you do not know, (as is the case with most people and most products) then a hechsher is useful.

    #964545
    Sam2
    Participant

    apushtayid: According to R’ Schachter and many others, gluten-free oat Matzah is not Halachically bread (or Matzah) and one cannot make Hamotzi and Al Achilas Matzah on it.

    #964546
    yehudayona
    Participant

    RD, if you check out the Kashrus Magazine annual list of hashgachas, you’ll find several that are identified as traditional or conservative.

    #964547
    charliehall
    Participant

    “According to R’ Schachter and many others, gluten-free oat Matzah is not Halachically bread (or Matzah) and one cannot make Hamotzi and Al Achilas Matzah on it.”

    If the gluten free oat matzah isn’t bread or matzah, then oats are not one of the five grains and we can eat oatmeal on Pesach!

    #964548
    rebdoniel
    Member

    You’re now getting into issues of ne’emanut.

    #964549
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Those same shittos are maikel for those who have gluten sensitivity, such as those who have celiac and will get sick from eating any other matza.

    #964550
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “apushatayid, I have news for you. Your kosher supervision has been in business for a while and everybody who has ever eaten in your home has relied on it.”

    But now, I am going to market it to the public.

    #964551
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    apushatayid

    why would that change anything?

    The halacha is eid echad neeman biisurim. You seem trustworthy, if you tell me that food is kosher then I can eat it. (of course if you dont know what you are talking about, or have no neemanus,that is a different story).

    #964552
    Sam2
    Participant

    Charlie: Correct. R’ Schachter says it’s not Chametz D’oraisa (presumably he would hold it’s Kitniyos). But it doesn’t help with American oats anyway because they’re cross-contaminated with wheat.

    apushatayid: R’ Schachter is not Meikil for celiacs. He says by celiacs that Ones Rachmana Patrei.

    #964553
    rebdoniel
    Member

    GF matza squares aren’t what I had in mind. If you know anyone on the Paleo diet, or anyone who eats GF bread made by Udi’s or Katz’s, you know what I am talking about. An actual loaf of sliced bread that you can eat sandwiches on, and tat generally can be used like bread. The GF breads don’t currently have a KFP hashgacha (although Rav Abadi says that Udi’s bread is fine for Passover); the issue could be that they use kitniyot derivatives (there are no actual kitniyot in them, since R’ Abadi says that Ashkenazim could eat it). Cross-contamination with hametz couldn’t be much of a concern, since the company would lose its credibility among celiac sufferers and would be subjected to lawsuits galore. (Recall that for many Sephardim, they hold that there is bitul hametz before Pesach, even le chatchila, and that they aren’t concerned; I just don’t have the industrial knowledge to know what it is in that GF bread that causes it not to be KFP).

    #964554
    newhere
    Participant

    MDG- You wrote “I looked at his (really their – including Rabbi Abadi’s sons) web site and found a “teshuva” where he (not sure which one) said that since wine is all processed by machines, then there is no need for “kosher” wines. That answer was dated 2002. I asked a friend of mine about it. This friend is a ger whose family makes non-kosher wines. He told me that they indeed handle the wine, test it, etc. I went back to the web site for further research and found a retraction of that teshuva dated 2003.”

    As someone who has known Rav Abadi for many years, I’d be very surprised to know that he ever mattered all wines. I’ve personally asked him staam yainum shaalos and he has never just said o all wines are fine. It is possible that the website, which belongs to his sons, made an error. This has happened in the past (see oats on pesach, bugs in water, tehillim for choleh), but i would be shocked if Rav Abadi ever held that way personally. You may be confusing his wine psak with his grape juice psak.

    Also, Rav Abadi lived in Israel for many years, but has since moved back to lakewood.

    #964555
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    As someone who has known Rav Abadi for many years, I’d be very surprised to know that he ever mattered all wines. I’ve personally asked him staam yainum shaalos and he has never just said o all wines are fine. It is possible that the website, which belongs to his sons, made an error. This has happened in the past (see oats on pesach, bugs in water, tehillim for choleh), but i would be shocked if Rav Abadi ever held that way personally. You may be confusing his wine psak with his grape juice psak.

    Also, Rav Abadi lived in Israel for many years, but has since moved back to lakewood.

    I can personally corroborate these statements. Except for the part about newhere knowing Rabbi Abadi, because I do not know who newhere is.

    #964556
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I never read any psakim on wine like that. He’s matir Welch’s grape juice because that davka is produced all by machine.

    Also, Polly-O mozzarella (before the OU) had Conservative rabbinical hashgacha, and R’ Abadi allowed that because there was a fully automated process in place; i.e. machines poured microbial rennet into the milk, and human hands never handled the cheese-making process.

    #964557
    gadfly_gadi
    Member

    What’s the problem with mozarella cheese with Tablet K if mozarella cheese with non-animal rennett putatively doesn’t even need hashgacha to begin with?

    #964558
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Politics. Most of the scruples over hashgachas come down to politics, or a dispute over which approaches are mutar, or whether their “yotzei ve nichnas” is frequent enough to be “yotzei.”

    #964559
    charliehall
    Participant

    “R’ Schachter says it’s not Chametz D’oraisa”

    It takes a big gedol to pasken against a universally accepted Rashi (at least by Ashkenazim) but I am certainly not one to argue with R’Schachter!

    #964560
    Ðash®
    Participant

    Also, Polly-O mozzarella (before the OU) had Conservative rabbinical hashgacha, and R’ Abadi allowed that because there was a fully automated process in place; i.e. machines poured microbial rennet into the milk, and human hands never handled the cheese-making process.

    His sons’ website has the following question:

    Message: I called the Mashgiach at the Polly-O company where they make the Polly-O Mozzerella Cheese. He told me all the ingredients that go into the cheese are either Chaf-K or O-U, but that Polly-O didn’t want to spend more money on putting the O-U on the package for their Mozzerella cheeses. He is a conservative Rabbi, but he said he’s very strict when it comes to Kashrut. Do you know anything about this?

    Reply: Cheese needs full-time supervision.

    AA

    And a followup:

    Message: I actually just spoke with the Rabbi that supervises it. He said it’s a completely automated process and human hands do not touch the food at all. Again, he stressed the Kashrut of the ingredients.

    I do understand what you are saying, however and I appreciate your clearing up this matter for me.

    Have a very happy Passover.

    Reply: Interesting Rabbi. Did he forget to check the laws in the Shulchan Aruch?

    Chag Sameach.

    AA

    #964561
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I’ll wait for Pesachdik oatmeal then, lol.

    #964562
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “But it doesn’t help with American oats anyway because they’re cross-contaminated with wheat.”

    Which is why I specifically wrote certified gluten free oat flour.

    “apushatayid: R’ Schachter is not Meikil for celiacs. He says by celiacs that Ones Rachmana Patrei.”

    That may be true, but he is not my Rav. Numerous poskim a)maintain that Oats IS in fact one of the 5 types of grain and 2)maintain that is so on a doraisa level and that someone with celiac may use matza made from Certified Gluten Free Oat flour and make the bracha al achilas matza as well as hamotzi all year long whenever eating bread made from oat flour.

    “I just don’t have the industrial knowledge to know what it is in that GF bread that causes it not to be KFP).”

    For starters the hechsherim that certify Katz or Udis are those that follow the ashkenazic minhag not to use kitniyot on pesach and probably do not want to be involved in certifying such products. MANY certified GF products contain rice flour or corn flour, and I am guessing the preparations necessary to make a KFP run (cleaning the equipement, etc) are not cost effective.

    #964563
    Sam2
    Participant

    apush: Fair enough. I was just enlightening you, not attempting to change what you hold. Rav Schachter (along with a sizable chunk of other Rabbonim) holds that gluten content is what makes something Chametz. Thus, gluten-free Matzah is an inherent contradiction.

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