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Every morning I keep having a question and jist decided to post It here. When i was in 10 grade we learned in yeshaya that part of the reasons for the churban happening as it says in pesukim I saw with my own eyes but I can’t say where cause idk maybe the second or third chapter …that the churban happened cause women colored their eyelids blue or purple…..something like that I remember vaguely and now that I’m applying makeup daily I keep feeling guilty about my makeup routine and i am wondering if I is still wrong to wear blue eyeshadow and if it is was the posuk also talking about pink and other colors? I wanna hear only the truth so don’t make up (see the pun?) You’re own answers
I think blue was just the common color back then.
The gemara often uses the word “k’chol” (not sure about the pronounciation) to refer to eye makeup. I don’t think it means specifically blue.
Happygirlygirl- That’s a very good question, and I am very impressed by the fact that you are asking it! I have never heard of any Rav assuring makeup, and my impression is that in fact, it is considered very important nowadays for girls to look good and feel good about their appearance and that nowadays, makeup is considered acceptable. The question is: How can this be so if we have those psukim in (it’s either Yeshayahu or Yirmiyahu – I believe it’s in a Rashi there) seemingly stating otherwise?
There seem to be two distinctions:
1. The reason why you are wearing makeup. Are you wearing the makeup for not lishma reasons (to attract boys not for marriage purposes) or are you wearing the makeup because you want to feel good about yourself and/or for shidduch/tachlis purposes (which would also include wearing makeup while not on dates in order that people will set you up)
2. It has to do with the type and/or amount of makeup worn. If you are wearing makeup in such a way that you really stick out, then maybe it’s a problem, but if your makeup is more or less natural and meant to enhance your features, then it should be fine.
It is important to remember that extremes in either direction are not good, and it is a Torah value to be happy and feel good about oneself.
I understand that you want to know what Daas Torah is on the topic. I believe that what I wrote is according to Daas Torah, but when I have a chance, I will try to verify for you if I can.
Happygirlygirl: I just realized that you have no idea who I am, so you are probably thinking, “why should I care what LU has to say on the topic?” I realize that you don’t know who I am and I am reluctant to reveal my identity or even give over too many facts about myself, but I will just tell you that I have been teaching halacha and hashkafa in seminaries for many years, so I am reasonably qualified to answer a question like this.
But again, I will try to speak to a Rav about it when I have a chance.
Khol…is a crayon type eyeliner…………
I’ve seen the bills for the ladies of the house
” I did not think of you being that way” trying to decide if this is a compliment or an insult… maybe a bit of both? Currently, I am actually teaching adults.
Happygirlygirl, when I asked my Rav recently about getting a not-kosher phone with texting, he told me that Hashem doesn’t want us to be depressed. Personally, I wouldn’t get depressed if I didn’t have texting – I just need it for work purposes.
But I am positive that he would tell you that you should wear makeup since it does seem to be very important to you. Of course, moderation is important. I think though that if you feel you should get rid of one thing, perhaps the perfume should go before the eyeshadow…It seems to me that perfume may be more of a problem halachically than eyeshadow. I don’t know if it’s assur or if you should get rid of it either, but if you do get rid of one thing, I think it should be that.
Makeup should be reserved for wartime to make you look more intimidating.
The gemara appears in several places. It isnt the eye shadow per se. It also isnt the perfumes they wore, per se. the gemara continues to describe what they did with their perfume how they walked who they walked with. the common denominator was that everything they did was with the singular goal of attracting the attention of the young men.
I am NOT a posek, BUT you definitely need to find one. There is a gemara that ALL EYE SHADOW is forbidden.
a mamin. please dont make up gemaras.
AS APY said, the problem was because the women were making themselves up for immorality. See the passage form the Gemara.
Shabbat 62a, Soncino Translation:
[mesakrothh] eyes:28 they filled their eyes with stibium and beckoned.29
Walking and mincing: they walked, a tall woman by the side of a short one. And making a tinkling [te’akasnah] with their feet: R. Isaac of the School of R. Ammi said: This teaches that they placed myrrh and balsam in their shoes and walked through the market-places of Jerusalem , and on coming near to the young men of Israel, they kicked their feet and spurted it on them, thus instilling them with passionate desire like with serpent’s poison.30
[bosem] there shall be rottenness:31 the place where they perfumed themselves [mithbasmoth] shall be decaying sores. And instead of a girdle a rope [nikpeh]: the place where they were girded with a girdle shall become full of bruises [nekafim]. And instead of well-set hair baldness: the place where they adorned themselves shall be filled with bald patches.
(24) Isa. III, 16.
(26) Ibid.
(27) I.e., with short mincing steps. One who walks with outstretched neck must take short steps, because he cannot see
his feet (Rashi).
(28) Ibid.
(29) To the men.
Lilmod ulelamaid, I was extremely disturbed by something you wrote. I realize everyone here is just having fun and nobody knows (for the most part) who anyone is. Nobody with a drop of seichel or integrity is using the CR to pasken shailos or solve their hashkafic dilemmas.
Still, you write that you teach Halacha and Hashkafa, and then you drop a bombshell like that on us- I couldn’t let it pass.
You begin by quoting what a poseik told you, namely, “Hashem doesn’t want us to be depressed,” in a discussion about text messaging. Then you extrapolate from this statement what your Rav would say about eye shadow. And you don’t even have the good grace to express any doubt or hesitation. You “are positive he would tell you…”
First of all:
You never ever try to draw comparisons and determine Halachic rulings from what a Rav tells you; not for yourself in different circumstances and definitely not for anybody else. The psak Halacha you received is to be regarded as binding for you in your present circumstances and that’s as far as it goes. If you are told the spoon is Kosher that does Not mean your neighbor’s spoon is also kosher. If you are expecting twins and are in your twenty-sixth week, and you receive instructions from your Rav as to how you should handle Tisha B’Av, you absolutely may not pass on this advice to your sister who is in exactly the same position.
It is far more than presumptuous of you to say that you are positive what your Rav would say about any Dvar Halacha. Hopefully your Rav is completely familiar with 4 Chelkei Shulchan Aruch and the full body of Torah literature that expounds upon it. He has watched and listened to his own Rabbayim. You cannot fathom the calculations that go into a seemingly simple psak. There is no way you can extrapolate from what he told you, what his opinion is on something else.
I know the subject is just a simple bit of eye shadow. But I could not ignore your statement. Especially in light of the fact that you state you are a mechanech or mechaneches.
End rant.
+1 RebYidd
I have a question what in the world are wanton eyes is that like a nice way of saying Chinese?
No
adjective
1.
(of a cruel or violent action) deliberate and unprovoked.
“sheer wanton vandalism”
2.
(especially of a woman) sexually immodest or promiscuous.
The Wolf
Nobody with a drop of seichel or integrity is using the CR to pasken shailos or solve their hashkafic dilemmas.
Never underestimate the potential foolishness of
(possibly teenage) forum users on the Internet.
I didn’t really see this audience as the
appropriate target for girl’s makeup tips…
I’m a male, and I find it hard to believe anyone would be
brought to inappropriate thoughts/whatever by reading about
good use and application of makeup. (It might even benefit
us to be aware of the full capabilities of the enemy {j/k}.)
I said I didn’t think it was appropriate for this group. Meaning that most here wouldn’t be interested
Should I be surprised that so many of my posts get through? 🙂
Kreplach eyes?
I just got the answer to the eyeshadow question according to Rav Leff. You can look it up on his website. A girl asked him the same question – is eyeshadow assur because of what it says in Yeshayahu.
He answers that the problem in the days of Yeshayahu was that they were wearing eyeshadow in a gaudy fashion. If you wear it in a gaudy fashion, it’s for sure assur. If you wear it moderately, then it depends on the custom in your community.
Happygirlygirl – i dont even know if guys think girls are cute in headbands so headbands are VERY MUCH tznius i think guys might not even like headbands which makes them even more tznius but i could be wrong i should ask a guy which i will h’h!
lilmod ulelamaid – i HATE perform! so get rid of it would also be my answer!
RebYidd23 – makeup for fun!! NOT to make me look scary lol.
golfer – i agree. because thats how halachos get made up!!
Comlink-X – of the enemies? i hope not!
lilmod ulelamaid – since i DIDNT even know there could be tznius issues with eyeshadow i guess im a tinok shenishba when it comes to that.
Golfer – I wasn’t poskening halacha. I was giving personal advice, something I am qualified to do at least in certain circumstances. As someone who has been learning and teaching for many years, I can often sense when advice is needed as opposed to a halachic psak.
The Rav whom I quoted is not a posek – he is someone who is qualified to give advice as I am, only he is slightly older and more experienced than I am. When I am in a situation where I think it is important to give someone advice and I have to decide what and how to say to them, I often do think about how my mentors have advised me and the hashkafic worldview that I have learned from them and use that as a basis for deciding how to advise others. This is what anyone in a teaching/mentoring position should be doing.
I was not “having fun” when I answered her question. I answered her question because I felt that it was extremely important that I answer her in the way that I did. I thought very carefully about every word that I wrote and there were reasons for every word.
Enough said. I can not explain any further.
“You begin by quoting what a poseik told you, namely, “Hashem doesn’t want us to be depressed,” in a discussion about text messaging. Then you extrapolate from this statement what your Rav would say about eye shadow.”
You quote me completely incorrectly:
1. I never referred to him as a poseik.
2. I never said anything about what he would say about eye shadow.
What I said was that he would tell her to wear makeup. And yes, I do know that he would say that.
lilmod ulelamaid – but on here you make your self sound like a teacher who knows lots of halacha and no science.
Sparkly – that’s true, but my original advice to HGG wasn’t meant as a psak halacha – it was meant as advice.
Happygirlygirl – but it stinks and i can smell it and it bothers me.
HGG – maskim. I would also add that even if guys don’t like something, that doesn’t necessarily make it tznius.
lilmod ulelamaid – did i say that? i was meaning to say that if guy DONT like something it means that its NOT possible to go out of your way and wear that for him to make it untznius since he DONT like it.
“…people in general (male/female) are attracted to different things …”
IMHO, people are attracted to what looks healthy. Makeup can give a healthier look. Foundation, for example, helps the skin look smooth and even colored. That looks more healthy than blemishes and splotches, and experiments have shown that people find smooth skin to be more attractive. Lipstick and Rouge look like good blood and circulation. Etc.
Sparkly, I’m still not sure what you are saying exactly. In any case, my point was that one should not assume that something is okay just because guys don’t like it. If that’s not what you said, then I’m sorry for misunderstanding you.
I copied and pasted your words below. It very much sounds like you are saying that since guys don’t like headbands, they are tznius. If that is not what you meant, gread.
“i dont even know if guys think girls are cute in headbands so headbands are VERY MUCH tznius i think guys might not even like headbands which makes them even more tznius”
lilmod ulelamaid – i meant that heabands are tznius. NOT meaning just because guys dont like something its tznius.
Men are not attracted to women who wear burlap bags as dresses and use garlic scented mouthwash.
Which doesn’t necessarily make it tznius.
lilmod ulelamaid – exactly what i was going to say.
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