- This topic has 39 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 1 week, 1 day ago by .
-
Posts
-
Posters hiding behind the mask of a username sometimes are mevazeh (denigrate) Gedolim or Kehillos Kodeshm and do so repeatedly (with such an agenda). Should the identity of such a poster be exposed (which may deter that poster or others from engaging in such sin of desacrating kovod HaTorah v’lomdeha), or should we protect the poster’s true identity from embarrassment (even if it is “mesyaya lidvar aveira – assisting a sinner), and passively allow the poster to continue being publicly mevazeh Gedolim or Kehilos Kodesh while using their identity to dump all forms of insulting commentary? In halacha, one may publicly embarrass someone who is continually talking during davening; in fact, it is an obligation (both for the benefit of the sinner and the tzibur).
pseudo-qwerty, aka aspiring pinchas, I presume you did the right thing and consulted at least one, if not many, Talmidei Chachomim, before messing up with someone’s life. Please post a shailah that you asked about this and the response you got.
All of the above is true. I almost barfed when the posts against robannim were posted. Not only is hepech yesodos hatarah, it disgusting altz mentchlechkeit, and degrading for the entire klal. All these low iq ignrant commont on some of the greatest yidden in the modern era. Thus, like we witnessed earlier this week, Someone was called out, but the callout entailed lot’s of personal details, gossips, and accusations. I don’t know those accusations are true, but it was displayed in a very low class contradictory way. There is l’shaim shamayim, nd there is shelo l’shem shamayim, and those who do follow the halachos and stand up for gedolim (which we all should) should do it in a respectful way, because they are representing the rightous, so do it rightously.
I don’t think that gives us a right to publicly humiliate somebody. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Allo
Qwerty.613 is great at writing to chat gpt…
We sometimes here have discussions about Daas Torah – whether tabbonim should be consulted and followed on various issues.
At the same time, here is an illustration that someone does not consult a rav on a clearly halachik issue where he is doing nezek to another person. In the attempt of “defending gedolim”, he is actually doing the opposite as casual readers will assume that this is indeed halakha. Presuming he still did not consult some responsible rabbonim, this seems like some OTD chabad yehsibotnik (chabad because he prefers to quote code by Alter Rebbe)
Note that in Jewish law, it is not just up to the injured party go to beis din and demand damages [caveat emptor in Roman/British/American law]; each person is responsible for making sure he does not damage. This is discussed in several places in Bava Basra – the person who has higher balcony is responsible for building the fence not to see his neighbor; a bird is considered to belong to the yard if it is within 50 amos (that is, the passerby can measure 50 amos himself to make sur ehe is not a mazik).
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rules-of-the-ywn-coffee-room-please-read
==================================
Welcome to the Yeshiva World News Coffee Room.
YWN Coffee Room Posting Rules==================================
Loshon Hara and other inappropriate speech2 – Loshon Hara will not be tolerated at all.
We are not and will not become Lashon Hara central (keep this in mind when starting a thread).4 – Understand that this site is called The Yeshiva World and use appropriate expressions.
Do not try to slip in double meanings. Understand what is typed is not always what is read (tone).==================================
Topic and tone1 – All posts must be kept on topic.
2 – If your post was deleted, please don’t post asking us why
your post was deleted. It was deleted because we felt that
there was something inappropriate, off topic etc.
Do not resubmit deleted posts.
3 – Do not use excessive CAPS.
4 – Before starting a new topic do a quick check to see if the topic exists.
5 – Please try to post in a language somewhat resembling English.
Visit spellcheck.net if you need help.
Mozilla Firefox browser also offers a spellcheck option.
If your comment is not written in normal English, it will not be approved.
6 – Yeshiva World encourages people to start new threads.
Please make sure to put that thread in the correct section of the coffee room.
If you think that we should add a section , please email one of the moderators.==================================
Personal Info1 – Please don’t try to pry out personal information.
Any questions or comments directed towards
trying to “figure out” a blogger’s identity will not be tolerated.2 – Personal email addresses or websites will not be published.
Posts that ask others to meet them at “Plonis” will not be approved.Should a blogger continuously try to pry personal information from others,
he/she will be booted from YWN.One user name per person. Period!
If there is a need to drop an existing user name
and adopt a new user name (e.g. personal information
has been compromised),
let us know so that we do not unintentionally “out” you.==================================
Moderating2 – You may request a post be deleted either by email or by another post.
We will review and take appropriate action.
Any screenname deemed inappropriate will have its posts rejected automatically.==================================
This is the Internet and everyone sees what you write.
Ve’Hameivin Yavin.The views expressed here are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent or reflect the views of YWN.
If you would like to contact YWN, please use the Contact YWN link on the home page or go.
Please understand that YWN receives hundreds of emails daily and can’t read or respond to all of them.
*All rules are subject to change without notice.
==================================In the name of chillull hashem, shaming and maligning another, is _not_ justified. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Stop losing your humanity in the name of some fake ideal you made up. It says in the Torah, to help your enemy when his donkey is overloaded which means despite your anger and hatred for another sometime you need to put aside your hatred and still treat them with decency….There’s no shortage of rotten people on this site that not only have zero respect for great rabbis but they would quickly honor the most wicked people on earth even in front of them. Even more shocking is that some of them think of themselves as good Jews. With the 10 minutes a day of Google learning that they might do, they believe they outdo the minimal 18 hours a day that some of these rabbis study. אין רפואה למכתו. Even an irreligious person should have the minimal brains to understand that messing with the judge’s friends won’t make the judge fond of you
qwerty.613:
Please direct your questions to the YWN Moderators, not to me.
Thank you.
The poster here, initiator of this thread, is acting in a despicable way.
He is using the name “qwerty.613”, trying to play on the name of the one he is attacking (qwerty613 without a dot).
He is a Lubavitcher who has been angered by Qwerty613’s attacks on his Chabad-Lubavitch sect, so he has been trying to terrorize and intimidate him into silence, by various underhanded means, including libel and outright lying. To try to hide the fact that he is on a crusade for Chabadianity, he is trying to paint his target at as an enemy of Torah and Frum Yidden in general, which is not true. Qwerty613 is an Orthodox guy.
Such things are not supposed to be allowed here. What happened to YWN moderation? Asleep at the wheel?
YWN should ban him, and let him take his sewer rat tactics back to his underground domain. If he has a problem with Qwerty613, let him go to the crypt of his late Rebbuh, the false messiah, in Queens, and take it up with him there.
Yes, it seems that the rules need to go through legal review: they strongly imply that the site protects personal information, but does not cover all cases.:
> Personal email addresses or websites will not be published.
[but not names/addresses/phone numbers? should be: any personally identifiable information]> One user name per person. Period! If there is a need to drop an existing user name and adopt a new user name (e.g. personal information has been compromised), let us know so that we do not unitentionally (sic!) “out” you.
> Please try to post in a language somewhat resembling English.
This is the most violated rule on the site! Especially ironic in light of a spelling error in the previous line I quoted.
I think you have to first ask who is a gadol? What makes someone a gadol? Let’s leave that aside and just say anyone is a talmud chacham and yirai shomiam shouldn’t be made fun of. But then you have a broader question, what is called das Torah that I have to follow a gadol. In some chasidish or Hungarian circles that meant everything I do in every hashkfah they are the boss. But in many circles especially litfish a rav or gadol answered shailas in Halacha . Hashkfah was something that each person just used their own judgment and hopefully with the right Torah views they decided correctly. Even in the 1960s and 1970s aside for some chasdim there weren’t so many kol korhas, asifas etc. All thiose kinds of ideas and centralised yeshiva system started after that. R shach zl for example controlled all yeshivas and no decision was made without him. This idea is a newish idea and I don’t think someone who disagrees with a “gadol” is a bad person or should be called out unless he mocks them
Chaim,
you need to differentiate between theoretical discussions and real personal damage.In the first case, if someone goes overboard with his opinions about well-known people, it is not a real damage as everyone knows internet is full of baseless opinions. Yes, mods should be enforcing respectful references, but even in worst cases it is a side-effect of heated discussion.
In the 2nd case, when someone posts personal information as a punishment, this is definitely a function of a beis din and not of individual (himself anonymous) poster. It looks indeed like he is a chabad yeshiva bucher on a break, and he demonstrates that whatever yeshiva he is in is delving into gemoras and chassidus but skipped the basics of hoshen mishpat, ironically supporting some of the statements of the original qwerty.
MSwaytogo – Dr. Qwerty I presume? No other participant here ever used such nivul peh about the Lubavitcher Rebbe (or anyone else).
Chaim > What makes someone a gadol?
another anecdote from R Chaim Mintz’ book: someone told R Ruderman that his picture is posted somewhere together with the gedolim. He did not feel comfortable about being on that list! Then, they showed him a photo with all pictures. “Oh, he said _those_ gedolim, I am fine being on that list!”
I understand why this thread is charged with rightous anger
And tho I see the technical reason behind it I think it’s a mirror of thinking that is actually wrong
The reason being your using “they denigrated gedolim, therefore I’m justified to humiliate him”
Humiliating someone, tho, is wrong so we cannot use something to justify bad behavior. We need to do what is right, not what we feel is our “right”
This is a very basic example that is not so extreme, but I’m using this thought process to kind of give a mirror to other more extreme examples where it is much more clear what is right and wrong.
We can never lose our humanity to defend an ideology. Cuz the humanity and the choice at human ideals is much more important then the ideology. Not sure if I’m making sense but this thought process gives us an illusion of right but when used in much more dramatic examples we justify bad behavior by this fake virtue signaling and the byproduct of that is losing our connection with real virtue and ethics and our inhirint humanity and what replaced that is sheeple mentality where we fight for slogans not for real ethical living.MSwaytogo – Please stop bringing back “qwerty” language to this site. No nivul peh about anyone. No “sewer rats”, no mocking Rebbes/Roshei Yeshiva/Rabbonim even if you don’t hold of them for whatever reason. We’ve been there before and we don’t want to go back. So do your part and cool it.
AAQ said – “In the first case, if someone goes overboard with his opinions about well-known people, it is not a real damage as everyone knows internet is full of baseless opinions. Yes, mods should be enforcing respectful references, but even in worst cases it is a side-effect of heated discussion”
People have actually been attacked, killed, or committed suicide ר״ל thanks to “baseless opinions” (which may very well have been in fact baseless) spread on social media. So despite your good intentions, your core טענה is patently not true. Very real damage can and has been done by people like “qwerty613”.
I don’t know why one has to call out someones name. They can just say bannign vaccines is retzicha without calling out gedolim. (side note I don’t think he banned it in public. Its just his personal belief). My comment above is more about big things. For example, lets say I don’t hold of the system in EY where everbody is learning. And say I believe people could go to the army and stay frum. The fact that you tell me, but all the gedolim say differently. Ill say so what. Yes they are gedolim and holy jews. But maybe that doesn’t mean they can decide every hashkafa issue. They aren’t nevaim. Maybe they all don’t know the metzias and/ or live in a certain envoirenment. Who says a gadol decided hashkafa? That didn’t exist in litfish circles years ago. R Moshe zl barely inserted himself into hashkafa. That doesn’t make gedolim any less helig.
YYA> People have actually been attacked, killed, or committed suicide ר״ל thanks to “baseless opinions” (
true, and, similarly, harsh political language is sometimes blamed for attacks on specific individuals. The difference, I think, is that the person who behaves like that is not connecting general bad language with specific damage that might follow. At the same time, damaging a specific person directly is obviously something that requires a beis din decision. Compare difference between direct/indirect in nezikin, or difference between meduoraita that is explicit and not explicit in the Torah.
You can also say a general bad language is common, while direct attacks are unheard of. I am not trying to protect the former, just showing a sharp difference between them and hopefully this will not become a new normal, and also serve as a reminder how to relate to actual people.
> instead, some of us have “evolved’ to worry about the “harm” of the perpetrator
last time, l’tzad zechus – which beis don or posek did you ask about this?
Which part of any mitzvah was qwerty over by denigrating rabbanim. And I want to see actual scripture sources….
firstt check, some general rules of saying LH about someone’s aveirah:
The speaker should reflect thoroughly, not hastily concluding something is theft or damage or any other offense, that the action in question is truly a violation according to halacha.The speaker should first approach the transgressor privately, and rebuke him with gentle language (such that the transgressor would be inclined to listen),
The description of the sin should not be exaggerated
The speaker must have pure intentions (“to’elet,” lit. “purpose”). As we will discuss later in paragraph 4, the speaker should not – Heaven forbid – enjoy his friend’s (the transgressor’s) disgrace, nor act out of a previous hatred he felt for the person.
By speaking Lashon Hara, the transgressor should not be caused more damage than would be appropriate as determined by a court of Jewish law reviewing the case.
Speakers with the same sins cannot speak
Rabbeinu Yonah (Shaarei Teshuvah, Gate 3, no. 141):t unlike a murderer, who may understand the enormity of his crime (and thus regret it and repent), one who shames someone publicly often fails to recognize that what he did is indeed so terrible – though in fact the damage caused by public humiliation can be irreparable (Bava Metzia 58b). He will therefore not do teshuvah, and his transgression will never be forgiven, precluding his being granted his proper share in the World to Come.
Choshen Mishpat 2 describes what Beis Din is allowed to do regarding punishments. There are discussions in codes around that asking when an individual can take the law for himself. That is, by default, punishments are prerogative of the beis din. I was not able to find specific permission for your actions.
Most modern discussion mention Chofetz Chaim conditions I quoted in the previous post and conclude that it is virtually impossible for an individual to satisfy them – be objective, not sin in this area himself, approach the person privately first in a right way (see R Tarfon complaint that people do not take tochacha and retorts that you need to give it properly), know what the beis din’s punishment will be, and ensure that his shaming will not exceed that. Thus, they advise to go to proper authorities.
I can imagine that a person burning with passion can find a way to satisfy those conditions in his mind (“I am objective, I never sinned or tried to use a name similar to others, I did not approach him personally because I don’t like him, oops”). What I do not understand, what prevents a person to actually go and get an advice from a chacham. Most people go ask shailos when a chicken falls into milchig soup. Will this be less of an issue? In this case, either the person does not have one chacham at his minyan, or does not go to a minyan, or is embarrassed to ask a question, which means that he knows his position is shaky. I would suggest finding an anonymous website, like chabad.org, or ask a friend to ask a question on your behalf.
I see sources saying that R Asher Weiss in Minchas Asher, parasha Kedoshim discussing permissibility of online public shaming. I am not sure this is a full or correct citation, but if you have a sefer or go to R Weiss’s classes, maybe you can get is the info.
Yaakov yosef. Not sure I agree…..yes it hurts to be denigrated but we have to have a backbone as well. And learn how to, grow from adversity. I guess it depends. But it’s not always the worst thing in the world to deal with adversity
Qwerty are you serious. You just render your clothes. Give me a break. That’s a little dramatic.
Always ask questions are you talking about denigrating gedolim or what we just did to qwerty cuz that would also apply to our behaviour towards qwerty not just for the snobby “elite”
Qwerty.613 how does it harm all of us. Seems like your using dramatic language slightly disconnected from fact. I still don’t get why it’s so important….more important then shaming someone else or rejecting their humanity (despite their choices) and throwing them off a chat
“Defending leaders and suppressing personal dissent is considered a form of idolatry because it involves exchanging trust in created beings or ideologies for trust in God, thereby elevating human authority to a divine status. This dynamic creates several specific spiritual and ethical distortions:
Displaced Worship: When loyalty to a leader or party takes precedence over loyalty to God, the leader becomes the ultimate source of meaning, security, or identity. This replaces allegiance to God with allegiance to a political figure or movement, which is the definition of idolatry”
“Suppression of Truth and Dissent: Idolizing a leader often requires viewing them as infallible, meaning any criticism is treated as an attack on the group itself. This stifles healthy debate and critical thinking, leading to a “cult-like” environment where difference is erased and the community mutates into a rigid hierarchy rather than a free community of believers”Please tell me why all of the above is more important then destroying someone’s humanity.
I think destroying someone’s humanity by rejecting them as a person, takes precident over worshiping a leader…..
Am I wrong?To nevuah: Being mevazeh talmidei chachamim is one of the worst sins and subject to terrible punishment the problem is that as far as i know qwerty was not mevazeh any talmidei chachamim (besides gornit or how he likes to call himself qwerty.613. Because as he posted before he is a massive talmid chacham ,oh and his false meshiach.) These are just some of the things that chazal said about being mevazeh talmidei chachamim.
Anyone who demeans talmidei chachmim there’s no refuah for his hit and yerushalyim was destroyed only bec. they demeaned talmidei chachamim in it (shabbos 119 b)
Someone was once mevazeh mar shmuel after his death and a large heavy pole fell on him from the roof and split open the membrane around his brain the gemara explains that hashem demands retribution for an insult to the honor of a talmid chacham (berachos 19a)
Also the rambam writes in (hilchos talmud torah 6:11) “It is a grave sin to demean talmidei chachamim or to hate them. Yerushalayim was destroyed only because they demeaned talmidei chachamim in it ,as it is written (Divrei Hayamim 2 36:16) But they only insulted the messengers of g-d and scorned his words and taunted his prophets; meaning ,they scorned those who teach his words . Similarly, when the torah says (vayikra 26:15 ) If you consider my decrees loathsome …, it also means that you consider those who teach my decrees loathsome. Furthermore, anyone who demeans Torah sages has no portion in the world yo come, and he is included among those about whom the torah writes (Bamidbar 15:31 ) For he scorned the word of hashem.
One who demeans a torah sage is liable to banishment and the jewish court is to banish him PUBLICLY… Moreover, even one who demeans a torah sage after the sage has passed away is also banished by the jewish court” עד כאן לשון הרמבםWho is the apikores who has no share in the world to come? it is one who disgraces torah scholars (sanhedrin 99b)
Anyone who mocks the words of the sages will be punished in boiling excrement (eruvin 21b)
If someone hates talmidei chachamim in the end he will deny the existence of hashem (toras kohanim bechukosai ch.2)
I wrote this in english bec. i was scared you won’t understand it .
If you need any more memrei chazal let me know. By the way I did not use chatgpt like gornit uses (obviously).
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.