Nashim Da'atan Kalos and Women Today

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  • #1772550

    philosopher
    Participant

    I mistakenly pressed a button on my phone while typing my previous message which cleared the message box so I hope my unfinished comment wasn’t submitted by mistake. If it was then this message may be a repeat of my previous one…

    Although it feels like personal attacks against me and noshem tzedkunius in general especially because it is so often that we are tried to be proven inferior and I see these comments almost every time I read the threads in the coffee room and sometimes in the news as well, I shouldn’t have taken Joseph’s comments so personally and I feel bad that I attacked him in a personal manner.

    Joseph, I hope you will forgive my personal attacks on you (and I also hope you will try to not “prove” constantly that women are inferior…)

    #1772534

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ DY

    “I don’t get the point of bringing the cases of exceptional women in klal Yisroel’s history”

    I’m surprised, you usually have a sharper eye for nuance. I wasn’t merely bringing up exceptional women. My remark was more pointed then that. I was contrasting most exceptional women with one. specifically Devorah and the fact that she had a very unique role in Klal Yisroel.

    C”V that I would say anything to undermine one word of Chazal.

    Also, a correction is in order. When I wrote ” all that remains is for someone to bring up a certain Gemmara in Chulin to attempt to undermine my bringing an example from Devorah” Chulin I meant to say a certain Gemmara in Magilah.

    #1772563

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Non political
    Fly and weasel?

    #1772564

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Syag,
    For some reason the mods didn’t let my post through.
    I quoted verbatim every comment of Joseph from this thread.
    I guess it was too long.
    Please tell me exactly which comment of Joseph on this thread, denigrate woman?

    #1772595

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Why?

    #1772614

    philosopher
    Participant

    Klugeryid, If you read my earlier posts you would understand why we are upset with Joseph specifically, however I take the blame for making it into a personal fight with him. Regardless of his personal opinions, I shouldn’t of attacked him personally. Syag did not fight with Joseph at all, she only pointed out why he bought up the topic specifically now in the 9 days because it can cause strife- and it did, but is was not over the Chazal specifically…

    #1772632

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Klugeryid,… Please read my post on page 2.
    I’ll post one last time…. You’re pretending, right?? So let me explain it to you ‘Rochel Bitcha Haktanah.’.
    He doesn’t need to comment denigration outright.
    As per his MO, he sucker punched …. Regurgitating a topic which knows will offend, during the 9 days…. Right out of the blue… What’s the purpose?…Nobody here is stupid, klugeryid..

    #1772649

    philosopher
    Participant

    Non Political, there is no problem with simply pointing out the high medreiges women can arrive at. There’s nothing here in of itself, even without comparing these great women to Deborah Hanavia, that contradicts Chazal in any case…

    #1772661

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Zg
    Thanks for your reply. I was serious. I never look at the dates and I thought he was replying to someone else who had just posted.
    It’s pretty lame in my opinion anyway but at least it’s an answer.
    The thread jumped from July 25 2011to being resurrected on April 3 2013 With no-one commenting on its long hiatus.
    Id quicker assume that something in his personal life set him off about. This specific topic than assume he was specifically trying to stoke people in the nine days. Perhaps he was bored. But I doubt it was purposeful in the nine days specifically.

    Be that as it may he barely said anything about it. The accusations hurled at him are total conjecture. And much worse “in the nine days ” than his actual comments.
    It’s nice that people think they know his agenda. But they may be wrong. Attack ideas not people.
    In this case It seems there was very little to attack in the idea department so everyone brought out their old grievences against Josef and let loose.
    Pretty disgusting IMHO

    #1772662

    philosopher
    Participant

    Joseph, I missed your post and only realized it today, where you say you didn’t post about women and bears… sorry I forgot your exact comment, but you posted that “Women are easily frightened…” in the news article about the black bear in Forshay… as if men would stand around waiting to greet a black bear…what was your point?

    Now you bought a Rambam that women can’t learn effectively. There are many rerferences in the Torah, in the Talmud, meforshim and seforim about men in a negative sense as well. I don’t see the point in combing through myriads of sources to bring up what they say about men…

    Nd”k in my opinion,( and there are many meanings including the one Bruriah talked about, as everything in the Torah has many facets) means that since women are more emotional than men, feeling more empathy with others as opposed to men who are not so emotionally involved with other people, it may have an influence on halachik outcomes so women should not be poskim and dayanim.

    Nobody feels uncomfortable with this Chazal as your first comment stated- we feel uncomfortable with what you are trying to imply.

    #1772667

    klugeryid
    Participant

    If you don’t like what he is claiming here, find out what it means, source it and post it.
    If you can’t, then maybe he is right (though In this case he is hardly claiming anything.)
    And if you are convinced that he cannot possibly be right even though you can’t source it, well that’s just your gut against his.that surely does not give you a right to level personal attacks

    #1772665

    klugeryid
    Participant

    And no. I’m not Joseph nor do I have a clue who he is

    #1772664

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Syag
    Because I could not really believe, until zg laid it out (and now I went back and saw that you did too) fully, that the entire attack against him “in the nine days ” is wholly based on conjecture as to why he resurrected it now.
    Joseph seems to be the perpetual whipping boy for the more liberal leaning members here, and I personally find it disgusting.
    He often makes bare bones points that get under people’s skin because they don’t fit with today’s ” enlightened ” world, and being as there is not enough there to find factual fault with, they report to name calling. Then asking how it got to be a “you have cooties ” fight.
    Call him on what he writes, have the courage to agree, or just stay silent.

    #1772677

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Kluger- for the “millionth” time, i didnt claim I dont like what he said. 2) you obviously haven’t read or understood any of the postings. 3) the cooties comment had nothing to do with him 4) most of your comments have nothing to do with me 5) considering there were 4 or 5 posters complaining and you singled me out to tell me I was singling him out, well I would have to say you are (once again)letting loose on personal grievances. Pretty disgusting IMHO

    #1772684

    philosopher
    Participant

    klugeryid, I didn’t want to go into it as I did ask mechila from Joseph for going at him personally, but I want to point out that if you want to put on your blinders- that’s your decision. We will not be attacked continously about our supposed “inferiority” . If there would be a woman on this thread continously harping for years, hiding behind Torah sources of course, on the inferiority of men, there would also be a time where people would say enough. Opening a thread with the very words “I’m not sure why this makes people uncomfortable…” when Chazal’s words makes no frum person uncomfortable so why would he say that except to deliver his next punch of the Rambam on our “inferiority”. Enough is enough. You wouldn’t want me combing through Torah sources for months and years finding sources on the weakness of men. There is a minimum of respect and decency required – topics can be discussed with intellectual honest and not with an agenda behind it.

    I’m not upset at myself for attacking his sick position only it bothers me that I projected two sentences about my opinion of his personal life. Otherwise I have no charata on what I said.

    #1772688

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    Bruriah, I am surprised at how disrespectfully you speak about chazal

    #1772689

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Syag
    Correct my comment to read “were it to be so that your don’t like what he actually said then attack his statement. ”
    Much worries than “if you don’t like what he said ”
    I didn’t mean to imply that you claimed not to like it.
    The opposite, I meant that nowhere did you give any basis nor reasoning nor claim to be against what he said, rather just straight personal attacks. Thanks for confirming my contention.
    2) guilty as charged
    as one of my other post started off, (the one the mods didn’t let through)
    “I am not really able to follow this conversation but it seems like it’s just open season on Joseph ”
    3) OK
    4)maybe not specifically with you, just equally with you
    5) I’m not sure either, except the final amount which was a direct answer to your “why ”
    It was more at the whole attack group.
    Nothing personal.
    BTW I think I followed your whole response except (once again)
    Care to explain?

    #1772704

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “3)maybe not specifically with you, just equally with you”

    No. None. And calling me liberal because I don’t like divisive topics discussed on public forums is exactly what Joseph does to me and will not be tolerated on any level. If you’d like to walk it back i’m Happy to have the rest of the conversation.

    #1772700

    philosopher
    Participant

    Wow, Bruriah, amazing thanks for clearing that up!

    And thanks for proving my point that there’s so much in the Torah and Torah sources proving the weakness of men and were anyone to keep harping on this issue just to try to “prove” that men are inferior it would freak anyone out- why is it ok to do so to women on a continuous basis noch dertzi when we don’t learn Gemorah and other Rabbinical sources so we don’t even have the proper answers?

    #1772708

    philosopher
    Participant

    Bruriah, what was disrespectful is bringing sources from the Mishna, Rashi, and R’ Elyyashiv that don’t make women appear inferior but present aggadeta that makes men appear in a worse light than women. That is unforgivable. 😉

    #1772717

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Philosopher and non political,

    I’m sorry I haven’t been up to date I’ve been busy

    One comment that caught my eye though was about women being neviot

    Mind you, bilam, avimelech,and lavan also got nevuah

    When I have more time (and a computer) I’ll IY”H comment better

    #1772728

    philosopher
    Participant

    CA, ok, but what do you want to prove, that because the nevius were women they were not tzeddeikas on very high spritiual levels?

    #1772737

    klugeryid
    Participant

    syag
    Joseph seems to be the perpetual whipping boy for the more liberal leaning members here, and I personally find it disgusting.
    this where i call you liberal?
    i dont think you are the totality of the more liberal leaning members here, so at worst i included you in the group.
    if you dont think you belong then you are not included,
    but i certainly did not directly call you liberal,

    #1772746

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “I guess Josef must be on solid ground..”
    Huhhh??? Are you serious…?? Looked like thin ice supported by a thread of misogynistic sarcasm….

    #1772750

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    kluger – thank you for responding. If you don’t mind an honest response, my take on that same post looked more like this:

    you: Joseph seems to be the perpetual whipping boy for the more liberal leaning members here, and I personally find it disgusting.
    He often makes bare bones points that get under people’s skin because they don’t fit with today’s ” enlightened ” world, and being as there is not enough there to find factual fault with, they report to name calling.

    me: most of your comments have nothing to do with me (referencing your complaint that the whipping comes from liberals and enlightened and calling me out for whipping)

    you: maybe not specifically with you, just equally with you

    I don’t know if this helps. But it is hard for me to read it any other way. So if it isn’t what you meant, I’m sorry you said it that way. But I appreciate you excluding me in the end. Or at least allowing me to exclude myself.

    #1772763

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Oy
    Your comment this time happens to fit the pattern of the liberal element who often do so.
    Meaning this time you attacked Joe completely based on conjecture and extrapolation from a time line without responding to his actual point (if there even was one) at all.
    You then spelled it out for me that that is exactly what you were doing.
    Reading into his comment, unspoken animus towards females based on his previous comments and his timing.
    While you may have deduced correctly, you also may have not.
    But that did not stop you from attacking him personally. Aka an unprovoked attack, typical of the liberal leaning members here. Short on substance heavy on personal attack and emotion.
    If you personally are not liberal minded, that’s wonderful. Doesn’t change what you’ve done here.

    I believe this is substantively the same as I posted before just significantly more verbose.

    #1772781

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    impressive! I guess it makes sense that you would know me better than I do.

    #1772786

    philosopher
    Participant

    yeshivaguy, what?! I’m genuinely puzzled which subject we are changing?

    #1772788

    philosopher
    Participant

    Klugeryid, b’kitzer you sided with Joseph even when you had no clue as to the source and context of this particular Chazal but you agreed with his opinion just so that “these liberal women can be put in place…”

    It’s becoming increasingly clear to me that the men supporting Joseph don’t always know the source and certainly not the context of his assertions. It’s just easier to say that women protesting this constant put-down are liberals. How convenient.

    #1772790

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I already regret that I am responding to your “post” but you seem to have the same issue here:

    ” Reading into his comment, unspoken animus towards females based on his previous comments and his timing.”

    Are you for real? How many times have I clearly stated this has nothing to do with women? Is it okay for me to expect that you would respect what I *actually* expressed instead of jumping on his bandwagon and throwing in the same fake argument that he pulled out of a hat and then ignored my multiple denials of? That you yourself admitted I said weren’t the issue? sheeesh

    I think I saw a mirage….

    #1772724

    philosopher
    Participant

    * Sorry, I meant to write aggadeta, not aggadah…

    #1772891

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Syag
    No need for regret
    You said you felt his post was timed to create animus in the nine days. So I ask you animus to or between who?
    I thought you meant women that he was denigrating women to create animus.
    But you say I’m wrong. So I’m totally lost as to your point

    #1772921

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Philosopher
    I did not side with Joseph
    I’m not even sure what his point was.
    I just don’t like that fact that he gets called dirty names no matter what he writes.

    Yeshivaguy78
    While I could not follow you at all, at least your post seemed to have substance. Kudos.

    #1772925

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    The reason why men go after women and not the other way around (darkoy shel ish lachzor acharei haisha) and as is clearly seen is because a man is a mashpia and a women is a mekabel and therefore a women’s role is more passive while a man’s role is more active, and as a result of this difference of mekabel and mashpia comes many differences in character between men and women, a women is only truly happy in the relationship if she feels that the Male is a true mashpia, and so to for the man, this doesn’t mean that the women is inferior they are just different, the husband isn’t supposed to force her to do anything, rather he is supposed to act in a way that his wife will want to listen to him, a couple once got into a slight disagreement in front of the lubavitcher rebbe zatzal and the husband told the rebbe, isn’t she supposed to listen to me, the rebbe replied your supposed to act in a way that makes her want to listen to u, rabbi manis Friedman speaks about this alot.

    #1772929

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    And therefore that fact that the man goes after the women as in the stories you mentioned is not a lack of das In the man over the woman, and similarly the way women are is not inferior to men, just different

    #1772934

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    “shows R Meir’s lack of serious foresight, as it led to his own ruination” that was a lack of respect” “the amoraim jumped over rivers and climbed trees to be in the company of pretty girls” that is a lack of respect, we don’t speak of chazal like that, there is obviously something here that we are not understanding, if you want to quote a specific story, fine, but writing it like that is disrespectful, I acknowledge that you didnt mean it that way,

    #1772939

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    So by your own admission you didn’t read the thread, you hadn’t checked the dates, you don’t know what josephs point was but you feel comfortable calling me out by name for doing something the enlightened women usually do even though you hadn’t clarified that it applies to me.

    I’ll try to process that without taking it personally. Thanks for clarifying I guess

    #1772937

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    On a side note regarding the story, why would rashis student put in a story that isn’t true? Rashis students where also rishonim

    #1772956

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Syag
    No you got it almost all wrong
    I read the entire thread
    As I said many times, I can’t make heads or tails of it.
    I am calling out insulting Joseph for posting a parve post.
    I called you out by screen name for a post you made.
    Yep is there something wrong with that?

    #1772963

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Yes, that I was the third poster calling him out and the only one you called on by name. That seems to negate your altruistic motive.

    Number two –
    “Why are some folks uncomfortable acknowledging this Chazal or its truthfulness?”

    If in your truest heart of hearts you believe this post is parve, then let’s just call it a day.

    #1772979

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Klugeryid

    “Yeshivaguy78
    While I could not follow you at all, at least your post seemed to have substance. Kudos.”

    I did follow the post and to me it came across as a feminist rant.

    @ Philosopher et al

    My point in contrasting specifically Devorah with other nashim tzedkanyos is this.
    1) There is a distinction between intrinsic and incidental traits.

    2) If NDK is an incidental trait then it doesn’t necessarily apply to Devorah. It also wouldn’t NECESSARILY apply to most women today, one would have to make an assessment based on whatever concept of NDK one is using. That’s how incidental traits work.

    3) If NDK is an intrinsic trait then it applies to all women at all times because it is part of what it is to be a women. That is how intrinsic traits work. It would therefore also apply to Devorah. One would then have to adapt a concept of NDK that would not prevent one with such a trait from being a permanent chain in the link of Torah transmission.

    That is also why I did not use prophecy and tzidkus in making my point.

    Checkmate.

    #1772985

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Non-political – ” I did follow the post and to me it came across as a feminist rant” absolutely, same here. How ironic that the feminist gets kudos from kluger

    #1773000

    klugeryid
    Participant

    syag,
    maybe the fact that you were #3 just was the straw that broke the camels back
    sorry.
    as to all of you getting shocked that i gave kudos to a feminist,
    read over what i wrote
    i have no clue what that poster wrote, the kudos was that it “SEEMED” to proffer opinion/position vs ad hominem attacks. thats all
    i did not agree with the writing as i cant as i dont have a clue what the rant meant!!!

    #1773018

    philosopher
    Participant

    Whatsaktome, you are right about the way it is written and I’m sure Bruriah didn’t mean it in a disrespectful way either.

    #1773019

    philosopher
    Participant

    klugeryid, you are not sure what his point was but i an others as well are not stupid. His comments don’t bother you because they are not directed at you and don’t try to prove a point about you. Would it be about you you wouldn’t be so passive about Joseph’s commentS.

    #1773022

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Yeshivaguy78

    “That’s not correct. Of course there are exceptions to intrinsic traits”

    Please review the concepts of intrinsic vs incidental as the terms are commonly used in philosophy and logic.
    Maybe philosopher (given her screen name) will be willing to help you out with this.

    #1773046

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I guess there’s a lesson to be learned when people are attacked or complimented based on what things SEEM to you, when you aren’t even sure what anyone’s point was. And look what hashkafos got your praise.

    #1773048

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Philosopher
    That’s pure conjecture with no basis

    #1773060

    klugeryid
    Participant

    I didn’t praise anyone’s hashkafos
    I praised their staying away from personal attacks.
    Something which many posters here not only can’t do, but can’t even seem to understand.

    By the way philosopher, if someone routinely denigrated men in general by pointing out an intrinsic masculine failing, why would it bother me?
    Yes it’s true that’s how hashem created men.
    Big deal.
    It’s got nothing to do with me .
    I just suffer with it.
    Yes I’m male

    #1773069

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I think most people understand it just fine but not everyone is tuned in to everyone else’s “stuff”. Not understanding why something is said should not be confused with there being no basis. Along with being more emotional comes being more sensitive, and along with having more “emotional control” comes a lack of said sensitivity. We were created differently, BH and it would be nice if that could be respected. Kalos and all.

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