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JS/JOE: Already has been rejected. See above.
This discussion is resolving around cases (such as the op) where the person was originally frum and then dumped halacha. So there’s no tinok shenishba or issue of him having been unaware of what chillul shabbos was or constituted. He was well aware having previously been shomer shabbos himself. Thus he has no such excuses for constantly violating such a severe prohibition.
It amazes me how divergent these discussions become. We went from an OTD guy’s woes, to discussions of how Hasidic thought has similarities to Christianity, and now to discussions whether sabbath desecration is worse than rape. This forum has a mind of its own.
GAW, #1, please, don’t quote the new testament on me. #2, There are Halochic gedorim for who is a roshah. Look in the sefer “CHofets CHaim”. #3, I did not understand the part about making impression.
Dolphina, I am a tremendous kanoi against rape r”l. If I were alive in the times of the episode of piligesh be”Givah, I would be fighting on the frontlines to punish the reshoim. I do not even understand 100% why the punishment for the rape of a single woman is what it is — I just accept what the Torah says. You and your friends must, however, understand the severity of hillul Shabbos.
Rape as per the Torah is a completely different situation than we are dealing with today. The Torah assumes they will marry and the man cannot divorce her. Many are reviled by these things, but they just don’t realize how things were back then. When a woman was raped back then, she wanted to marry that person. Just read some Navi about Amnon and Tamar. Read also some Navi about how the Binyaminites got married.
Rape today is akin to murder. Do not compare the two.
mdd:
1: Why not? Chachma BaGoyim Ta’amin.
2: Yes, I did note that as well.
3: Impression?
To Nossan B.: We don’t know why he “dumped Halacha”. Was it because of a bad choice, Chavairim, Rabbaim (which I have seen time and time again), parents, Me’Anesed in the Mikvah, or perhaps just a really strong Yeter Hara?
We don’t know. Hashem does. That is why Hashem judges and we don’t. Judge not, that ye be not judged. (MDD, read that as “Al Tadin es Chavercha Ad Shetehei B’Mikomo”).
Rebdoniel- it is easy for you to say that because you chose this. Now imagine if you hadn’t. If you were born following Torah. And then all the people around you who supposedly keep Torah hurt you (in any way, you can fill in the blank) Now if that were the case, what would you think? That religion must be the best way of life? No, you’d want to be as far from religion as possible. Additionally, if someone hates the situation they are in (ie. their family situation) naturally they will be upset because there is little they can do to change it. That person may think well I wasn’t given a choice in how my life will be. Why does God get to choose how I should run my life. Which, if you think about it is the same as no taxation without representation. So yes, they know what they’re doing is wrong. But the injustice in their life is what leads them to throw away religion. If you can’t understand that, please just keep your mouth shut.
Sorry if this is kind of a mess, hope people understand my point.
I did not mean to personalize my previous comment.
It was *in response to* sheepyaff, and it should have stated that Hashem doesn’t need from an *individual*. Etc.
For many secular families if their adult child does not follow the parents steps to become a scientist/doctor/lawyer is a disaster. I am an unemployed son of two professors. I do not like mathematics — I believe it is a waste of mind power.
The Mitzvot are our debt to G-d and are of eternal benefit. But expanding energy for a professor’s or lawyer’s or doctor’s career is useless unless one has an urge to do such job.
nossond: Sorry, but rape victims, then and now, don’t decide to marry their rapists for their warm and fuzzy personalities. Bushah, etc can have a lot more to do with it. What you say sounds like victim blaming- like they “asked for it.” The whole point of the story of Amnon and Tamar was that he shamed and harmed her to the extent that Avshalom killed Amnon in revenge.
I’ve had plenty of Jews hurt me, sadly, but the fact that we’re called am kshe oref hu doesn’t change the fact that we still have the most reasonable monotheistic faith. Nobody should judge Judaism based on the Jews, because as we know from the Pew report released today, most Jews in America (At least) are very secular and do terrible things, generally of a perverse and immoral sexual nature. Lots of Orthodox Jews do unethical things, too, sadly.
It’s silly to judge a religion based on the way its adherents behave.
And as far as “choice” goes, God gave us the Torah and mitzvot for rational, protective reasons. We’ve been keeping shabbat for centuries, whereas the progressive movement and the UN just a few decades ago began extolling the virtues and morality of a day off for workers. Non Jews even realize and acknowledge the beauty of Jewish values, such as filial piety/kibud av v’em, the importance of being shomer negiah/encouraging chastity before marriage, restrictions on eating, fasting, prayer, repentance, charity, modesty, etc. It just seems so rational and right to me. I don’t see how others can’t live this way. A good friend of mine recently underwent halakhic conversion and spent yontiff with our community. A congregant asked him, “why did you convert?” and his answer was, “how can you not?”
I also think that the Pew report shows that Orthodoxy is in the best demographic position to advance Jewish life in this country. I think that there should be a halakhic Judaism that allows innovation, but sadly, the Conservative movement dropped the ball, with most of its members not keeping shabbat, kashrut, or taharat hamishpacha, which is a shame. Addressing issues such as electricity on shabbat, a triennial cycle of torah reading (Which was used in Israeli communities well through the 11th century), egalitarianism, etc. from an honest perspective, amid a backdrop of strong committment to the mitzvot, would be a dream to me, but there’s been little effort towards this.
Assaf- Write a letter-by hand. Tell your parents how much you love and respect them. Describe some of your childhood memories~times when they were there for you.
Tell them about the army. Tell them about your life in Israel. All of the good things serving all of the Jewish people has done. Then tell them that ag this point in your life you have made some choices they may not agree with….make sure they know this is not their fault…. they did not do anything wrong…..
It must be handwritten and mailed….
To the guy who said theIDF doesn’t pay for university…they do. You have to give them time back…
“This discussion is resolving around cases (such as the op) where the person was originally frum and then dumped halacha. So there’s no tinok shenishba or issue of him having been unaware of what chillul shabbos was or constituted. He was well aware having previously been shomer shabbos himself. Thus he has no such excuses for constantly violating such a severe prohibition.”
Someone who stops keeping Shabbos was never keeping it in the first place. If he doesn’t value Shabbos it’s because he never experienced it. A person can go all their life not doing any melacha on Shabbos and still not know what Shabbos is. As for me, it took until I stopped keeping it and then started again before I felt my first Shabbos.
GAW, What?!?! 1. You think it is ok to bring new testament as a proof in a Haskofic/Halochoc discussion? 2. You obviously have not fully learnt those. 3.?
Plus, according to you, GAW, nobody should ever be treated as a roshah(you never know what he was through… bla,bla, bla) — which is obviously not true.
Fkelly, what you wrote is not really an excuse. Try to understand this.
writersoul. I did no victim blaming. Bushah was a big component. But it was more than that. In any case, back then, the victim generally wanted to marry the person who did it. Sounds strange but it is true. Read Navi and you will see that Tamar wanted Amnon to marry her. Things were different then.
People I know who were raised frum/Orthodox and stopped keeping shabbos are not to be treated like a tinok shenishba. A tinok shenishba, by definition, is someone who was never raised with shabbos. An OTD person, therefore, who violates shabbos be farhesya (ie/they drive on shabbos, write, go to work, etc.) must be treated like a goy le kol davar. They cannot be counted towards a minyan; the kohanim in their ranks cannot duchan. They cannot be given aliyot le torah. And they cannot be allowed to touch wine that is not mevushal. For all intents and purposes, an OTD person is treated like an aino yehudi.
circumstances cannot change the fact. there no excuses. g-d does not put someone in a situation that they cannot handle
Hello Assaf
I, too, am a mother of a son who chose a different lifestyle from his upbringing. It was very painful for us. We were always concerned about this child and his health issues, and we turned over the world, sparing no money or time from addressing his issues, although my husband and I do not have much of either. When he finally came clean with us, he was angry, disrespectful, and quite frankly, cruel and mean.
He has since totally retracted himself, and is trying to find his way back into our lives while maintaining his independence. He is truly trying to be a good son.
My husband is a tzaddik, he behaves to him as if nothing has happened, ignoring his incredible pain, because of his love for his son which is unending. Although I have accepted him as a repentant son, I do not imagine myself ever trusting him again, and he feels this and is pained by it. At this point, he alone is suffering from his choices, as I have emotionally moved on.
Assaf you sound like a mature and sensitive young man. I strongly request that you come clean (gently)with your parents. First of all, we are only human. Witholding such an important part of your life can only backfire at some point, as it did with my son who held himself for way too long (at least five years). Second, (I realize that I am speaking as someone who believes, I can only speak from such a place) Hashem will help them with this journey. They will, at some point, come to terms with their new reality. And both sides will find their peace, bezrat Hashem.
On another note, I personally do not think that you need to wait for them to come to Israel. I think that the distance (phone calls, letters, etc. whatever you are comfortable with) may soften the blow. They will probably want to come shortly thereafter to see you.
Assaf- may your sensitivity and kibbud av v’aim stand as a zchus for you, and may you find your happiness and peace within our people. May you be matzliach in maintaining your parents relationship through this difficult time.
Hatzlocha vebrocha
Rebdoniel, generally speaking, +1. However, not for all intents and purposes.
MDD:
1: Yes. (Even though it wasn’t a proof, it was a quote). Just like I would quote Shakespeare.
2: I never claimed the list was exhaustive. However, I’m talking about Chazal’s list.
3: Somewhat correct. There are Mitzvos Sichlios that everyone should be keeping, and Chukim that those who have not been taught would not know, or refuse to keep. I refuse to blame someone who went through the Holocaust, or got Meanesed in the Mikva, or who was degraded by his Rabbaim for not keeping the non Mitzvos sichlios of Yiddishkeit, even out of spite.
That all being said, I’m not discussing what should be done Halachicly. Ask your LOR for that. I’m (and I thought Joe as well originally) am discussing what the Ribbono Shel Olam will do. For that I refuse to judge.
Reb Doniel: I wouldn’t disagree with most of what you said (her children are Jewish, though, and she does have Dinnei Niddah, can’t use them where Amirah L’Akum is muttar, etc.). That is not to say that the Ribbono Shel Olam will punish them for their actions. He may, and He may not. That is for Him to know.
You wouldn’t ASK them to desecrate shabbat, obviously, and you wouldn’t feed them treif food, and such a woman’s offspring would be halakhic Jews (Although they wouldn’t be very Jew-ISH), but as far as giving these people any of the zechuyot that come along with being a Jew, they’re not entitled.
Someone like the OP, sadly, should be treated like a goy le kol davar. I wouldn’t allow him to cook my food, or count him towards a minyan, or allow him to touch wine. His case is not that of the child who never had shabbos in his life. A person who casts off the yoke of torah and mitzvot is a very tormented, troubled soul, in my opinion.
>> I, too, am a mother of a son who chose a different
>> lifestyle from his upbringing. It was very painful
>> for us. We were always concerned about this child
>> and his health issues, and we turned over the world,
>> sparing no money or time from addressing his issues,
>> although my husband and I do not have much of either.
I am sorry it happened. My parents are professors as were most (all?) of my grandparents. I am unemployed, I do not like mathematics, and I am workophobic.
Probably it causes my family much grief, but what can I do?
Jewish source- that’s just something everyone says to make people feel good. And it’s not true. People are put into situations they can’t handle. And not all of them do.
Rebdoniel- I don’t mean to minimize the pain you were caused by others, but what you don’t understand is the intense pain some people feel. Sometimes the hurt is just too bad. And it leads people to hate themselves and everything about the people who hurt them. So if those people are religious it causes then to resent religion. I was taught that there’s a Gemara that says someone who rules his home with an iron hand and the household lives in fear, the children will come to do the three cardinal sins.
Additionally, I think that sometimes if it is a choice between religion or emotional health than your health comes first. Someone who has never experienced this will never understand no matter what anyone says.
GAW,this is outrageous!! “Chochmah be”Goyim ta’amin” means math and physics. To bring a proof from Yoshke in a Hashkofic discussion is absolutely ASSUR!!! If you don’t retract, you should not be spoken to.
Fkelly, like this. When Ribono shel Olam judges a person, He takes into accout all the circumstances. As far as we go, if a person knows what he is doing, Halochah treats him as a roshah.
And no, health does not come before religion in the cases under the discussion.
MDD: Please don’t talk to me then. 🙂
Seriously, do you have a source as per why I can’t quote a secular statement that originated from Matthew, but has been accepted in the common day phraseology of American society?
Rebdoniel- I don’t mean to minimize the pain you were caused by others, but what you don’t understand is the intense pain some people feel. Sometimes the hurt is just too bad. And it leads people to hate themselves and everything about the people who hurt them. So if those people are religious it causes then to resent religion. I was taught that there’s a Gemara that says someone who rules his home with an iron hand and the household lives in fear, the children will come to do the three cardinal sins.
Yup.
Additionally, I think that sometimes if it is a choice between religion or emotional health than your health comes first. Someone who has never experienced this will never understand no matter what anyone says.
Depends if it is one of the big 3 or not. The gemorah explicity talks about someone who was smitten by a woman and was told better to die than to do an Avairah with her.
Because we are talking about hanhogos Shamaim, and you bring Yoshka’s view as a sourse! Have you converted To Christianity? Have you become a priest r”l? Do you believe in J-s? I can’t believe we are having these discussion!!
Because, GAW, this is what Yoshke held. You may not learn from him! Just because you heard it many times at work(!), it does not make it acceptable. We learn from CHAZAL!
Because we are talking about hanhogos Shamaim, and you bring Yoshka’s view as a sourse! Have you converted To Christianity? Have you become a priest r”l? Do you believe in J-s? I can’t believe we are having these discussion!!
Boich Svara. Once again, a source (and then I will surpise you with all the phrases that you currently use but should not be L’shitascha. You can even google it yourself if you would like.).
No one is making you continue this discussion.
How do you know anything about what is going on in Shamaim? Because Chazal told us.
By you, Yoshko told you. I think you belong in cherem. Outrageous!
And I am not talking about using figures of speech (even though that also is wrong). You learn the etzem hashkofah from him. You need a source for that?!?
Because, GAW, this is what Yoshke held.
In all probability, he actually held of 95%-99% of what Chazal held. For example, the last supper was the Korbon Pesach. Should you drop that as well?
fkelly ever heard of
Ain Hakodosh boruch hu ba betrunia im bryosov
that’s not feel good that is a fact
Everyone deep down knows very well before he does something assur he feels he has the power to go either way. Some people make good choices some do not hashem begs us ubocharta bachaim please choose life.
Who had a life? Reb Elyashiv Zt”l R Moshe Zt”l and so many others and so many simple people that we know. Who has a life? the secular world no nachas from themselves no nachas from their children nothing nada you have to be blind not to see what is the correct way. Unfortunately some times we are blinded by Taivos sometimes its stress and other things so you need to make the correct adjustments in life but does not mean to throw away yidishkeit.
GAW, what about the rest 5%, according to you?!? In reality, it is much more. How do you know that what you are quoting is right be’etzem?!? And that’s besides giving credence to a founder of a wayward movement? Again, I can’t believe we are having this discussion! Even if you did what you did here at YU of Frish, you’d get banned!!
I think you belong in cherem
Or even better yet, Skilah? Perhaps you, who is without sin, should cast the first stone?
😉
GAW, source? Look in Avodah Zorah 16B-17A, where Rabi Eliezer was punished for agreeing with Yoshke’s dvar Torah!
nossond: I don’t exactly look forward to discussing rape in my spare time, so this is my last post. Tamar may have wanted to marry Amnon, but not because she was happy with being raped or anything ridiculous like that. She was incredibly shamed and mortified, as is completely obvious from the navi. My big beef is with what you said about it being different. IT’S THE SAME THING- same feelings upon being victimized- but society’s way of dealing with it (covering it up and having the victim marry the rapist vs prosecution and validation) has changed. Whether girls married their rapists is not the point- WHY is the point. When you said that nowadays it’s different because the feeling afterward is like murder, there is NO REASON why it should not have been the same then. If anything, the story of Amnon and Tamar is a proof of that (think of Avshalom’s reaction- not exactly happy about the upcoming wedding…).
Jewish source and gaw and everyone else- Well you’ve obviously never experienced depression or anxiety or any other mental illness. And yes sometimes you do have to desecrate shabbos to keep your sanity. Imagine if you’re anxiety was so high at night that you couldn’t walk in the dark. You wouldn’t know, but just try to imagine. It’s not hard then to understand why someone would turn on their flashlight app. Imagine if you couldn’t fall asleep because every noise you heard absolutely petrified you. And music was the only thing that stopped your thoughts from racing. Cuz when you’re left to think too much you end up so depressed and mad and hurt yourself to feel better. Not difficult to understand why someone would put on music on shabbos. I could keep going because I have many more examples. People who say religion is more important than mental health have never had issues with mental health. Because if they had, they would understand.
Fkelly,
A person who puts music on on shabbos, or who uses any electricity on shabbos, probably can’t be considered a mechallel shabbat, since electricity is not a melacha (neither an av, nor a toldah). The minhag is not to use electricity on shabbos, according to R’ SZ Auerbach. A person who commits an actual violation, such as turning on the flame of his stove, or driving in a car, or carrying, or writing, is outside the pale.
Well then a lot of people are considered mechalelei shabbos that aren’t. Like people who text on shabbos..
But anyway my point wasn’t how big an aveira it was. I was trying to show how people may do something wrong to keep their sanity.
Fkelly
hello there is no heter to be mechallel Shabbos in any way without the proper guidance from a competent Rav.
As per a case of mental health that a person is in danger if music doesn’t get turned on the heter would be amira leakum betrei drabannons bemokom mitzvah .In the torah we learned vechai bahem velo sheyomos. Let’s talk about the situation here at hand he would not be in the army if he had a mental issues . He has nisyonos he needs to overcome them I am not telling him to overcome them the Torah says ubocharta bchaim choose life no just the life wich goes by in a flash 60-70-80 if u r lucky but eternity eternity remember time is a creations of this world hashem will remove time one day and those that will merit will has eternal bliss.
I don’t think mental illness or drugs are involved here. He seems like a pretty well-adjusted guy, despite his spiritual foibles.
I was talking about him. But this thread seemed to get hijacked along people in general who are otd. So I continued. And no one is really understanding the points I am trying to make so I’m done. Think what you want, I’m not going to argue anymore.
Yeah, not liking the direction this thread is taking either. If you have something constructive to say to Assaf you may post it. Otherwise, it will be deleted.
GAW, source? Look in Avodah Zorah 16B-17A, where Rabi Eliezer was punished for agreeing with Yoshke’s dvar Torah!
Yes, because it was Minus (or more accurately, Malig on the Torah). This is Chazal.
?”? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? Shabbos 127b
????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ????
Chofetz Chaim H’ Lashon Hara 3:7.
And as I said before:
??? ????, ?? ????? ?? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????, ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??????, ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????.
Perkei Avos second perek.
There is a reason why they (they Gedolim of the prior generation) that anyone who went through the Holocaust is Kaddosh and can not be judged.
Chazal also say (and I forget where, but IIRC it is quoted by Rashi in Chumash) that someone who asks Hashem to judge or punish gets their Massim looked at first. Perhaps someone could help me here.
But I’m glad that you (and the mods, who agree this is no issue) have my back in case I do quote something that is Minus. 🙂
Mod-73: As per your request, this will be my last post on this subject in this thread, Beli Neder. Assaf did not come here to be put down and called a Rasha.
Rebdoniel is wrong, by the way. Someone who is Over a D’rabannan is still a M’challel Shabbos. It’s an explicit Peirush HaRosh in Horiyos, if I recall correctly.
Assaf: I am very sorry for your situation. I would always advise being honest with family. And if you can’t bring yourself to tell them, maybe you should start thinking that the life you’re living isn’t worth it. If you can’t share it with those who love you, then you have to think there’s something wrong with what you’re doing. That aside, it is always very important to make sure not to burn bridges in case you ever want to come back.
Assaf- may your sensitivity and kibbud av v’aim stand as a zchus for you, and may you find your happiness and peace within our people. May you be matzliach in maintaining your parents relationship through this difficult time.
Hatzlocha vebrocha
from me too
fkelly, I understood what you were trying to say. But that also falls under ‘vechai bahem’. Also it’s not something you can explain to someone who’s, thank God, never experienced anything like a panic attack or severe anxiety.
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