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Music does effect your soul, the only problem is that in todays generation, most of the jewish music is derived of secular sources. So tech. there’s no difference btw listening to ‘jewish’ music, or secular music WITH refined words. (i’m not saying everyone should listen to the radio.) but, since todays music is anyways very similar to that of the secular world, i think there is very little difference if any btw the two. and correct me if i’m wrong. this is esp true when it comes to classic music. which is well developed, unlike most of todays beats…
Classic is one of the only goyish musics that’s okay.
Canine, a kula from you? Wow!
BS”D
Are there any more refined words than psukim? What refined words do you ever find with secular music? If you take the most “pop” of our world, you have Yossi Green. He can be defined as a commercial composer, but he is an eved Hashem who really doesn’t need the money (he is a successful businessman). Boruch Levine is a very well respected mechanech, and so is Shmuel Brazil. The Chassidishe composers all compose for their rebbeim and it is only afterward that the tunes make it into the commercial Jewish music world. Ki Hierbeiso is a perfect example of that – it was so good that Avraham Fried and Lipa bought it from whoever wrote it for the Lelover (?) simchas beis hashoeva. Avinu Malkenu Psach Shaarei Shamayim was a Belz nigun that I think was also composed for an SBh”S and it spread into the popular Jewish sphere. Mendy Werdyger puts out albums of such new Chassidishe neginah every so once in a while as well.
And even Yossi Green’s music clearly fits the lyrics and has the right beat and feeling to enhance the message of the psukim that it accompanies.
The secular composers just turn out whatever the market will bear. Some of their messages – rebellion, drugs, free love – are completely against Torah.
Classic is one of the only goyish musics that’s okay.
How are you defining “classic?”
The Wolf
Much Gregorian chant is based on Psalms… they stole stuff from us first more than you know…
Music does effect your soul,
Music doesn’t effect my soul. It does affect it, however.
BS”D
And the Koran stole much from the Torah. Do we read the Koran? Gregorian chants are notzri music – great for them because for them it is worshiping Hashem but for us it is shituf.
Princess, I believe there is a very important difference between secular music and Jewish music derived from secular sources.
Secular music is an expression of a secular soul. Jewish music is an expression of a Jewish soul. If a composer has motives of kedusha when writing his music, even if the music is otherwise similar to secular music then it is still an entirely different animal than its secular music counterpart.
I think everyone knows the difference between Jewish music and nonJewish!!!
FIrst of all, you can definitely find an english song with kosher lyrics, like a song about graduation or something like that… but how many songs do you listen to before you find it??? Those that know the kosher songs also know the nonKosher songs…
And you can pull the arguement about how Jewish songs use the same tunes or have the same sounds as nonJewish ones… but then again, the Jewish ones have kosher words!!! If you’re listening to the equivalent tune in english music it will be trashy and no comparison to the jewish words!!!
As much as you can argue that Jewish tunes are just as bad, nonJewish music is a million times worse. You can tell a high school kid who listens to only Jewish from a kid who listens to english…
Anyway, the torah says “kedoshim tihyu” which obligates us to stay away from anything RELATED TO arayos. its obvious that secular music is RELATED TO arayos, even songs that are more kosher than most… and we are mechuyav to stay away from that!!!!
Would you say that the German band Moskau’s song Genghis Khan is treif? How about even without the words? How about when it’s played at a chassidishe wedding with yiddish words dubbed over by MBD (who by the way is a great baal chesed)
The whole “issur” is ridiculous. We should avoid anything that is damaging to our avodas Hashem regardless of where it comes from.
After a hemish couple gets married and they are introduced as Mr and Mrs for the first time
The song played by the band is BAKER STREET by Gerry Rafferty.
EVERY Hemish wedding plays that song as the first song when the couple come out of the Yichud room
The song played by the band is BAKER STREET by Gerry Rafferty.
EVERY Hemish wedding plays that song as the first song when the couple come out of the Yichud room
Heh. I never realized that. But having just found the song on YouTube and listening to it, I see that you are right. 🙂
The Wolf
ha ha! seriously? that is too funny!
“Rov Soloveitchik z’tz’l was very clear that much non-Jewish music elevated the soul and was mutar — even when sung by a woman.”
You mean beyond opera?
Eeees just pointed out to me that many couples also come out to “The Final Countdown” by the band “Europe.” Having listened to that song, I find that I remember more than one chasunah where the chosson and kallah came out to that music.
The Wolf
I forgot some do come out to the Final Countdown by Europe.
I guess the last wedding I was at, it was Baker Street so it was in my head.
I wonder how many people in the audience knew what the song really was (It was a VERY yeshivish crowd)
BS”D
The words to Yidden Yidden are so good and in such basic, clear Yiddish that I really feel as if Moshiach is in the streets every time I listen to the song. Of course MBD or whoever wrote the words is not Reb Izekel Kaliver but he turned klipa into kedusha.
That’s my point. No matter how many irrelevant terms you chuck around, you have just admitted that it is possible to be moved in a positive way by non-Jewish music.
QED.
“Okay, but how are you supposed to know what’s clean unless you listen to all of it, including the bad stuff, until you figure it out?”
Well, it’s pretty simple. You start listening to a song, if you like the tune, words and beat and are comfortable with the lyrics you continue listening. If you find any of the above not to your liking you turn it off….
“I think everyone knows the difference between Jewish music and nonJewish!!!”
well I love Leonard Cohen, Billy Joel, Matisyahu kenny G and Paul Simon…All 100% Jewish. Would there music be classified as Jewish Music or Goyish?
Well, it’s pretty simple. You start listening to a song, if you like the tune, words and beat and are comfortable with the lyrics you continue listening. If you find any of the above not to your liking you turn it off….
If a bit of non-kosher food fell into kosher food, would you take a little bite to see if the taste is recognizable?
<i> If a bit of non-kosher food fell into kosher food, would you take a little bite to see if the taste is recognizable? <i>
So I guess all those frum couples who came out of the Yichud room to Baker Street or The Final Countdown are treif?
I bet if you were married in the last 20 years you came out to one of those songs too
I guarentee you know those songs, Go to youtube and look for Baker Street and The Final Countdown by Europe (Dont worry they are sung by men) and you will instantly recognize them
“If a bit of non-kosher food fell into kosher food, would you take a little bite to see if the taste is recognizable?”
NO, of course not becasue I am Kosher.
As for music there are various opinions on whether it is permissble. There ARE NOT various opinion on whether one can eat bacon or shrimp. All Orthodox Rabbis, even MO say that it is forbidden…(TOUNGE AND CHEEK)
Daas: You mean like it says in Shulchan aruch?
BS”D
Look back at my first post. I said the WORDS matter. I’ve said millions of times that we just don’t have enough composers because the market is too small. I am not moved by the music; if MBD would have found another tune the words would be the same.
And look at what I wrote. The WORDS are written in simple, clear Yiddish that make it seem as if Moshiach is in the streets – is the MUSIC written in simple, clear Yiddish?
Treyf words = treyf song. For that matter, some performances of Jewish music are treyf as are some Internet parodies set to well known Jewish tunes.
No words, goyish music = treyf (and I am sick of hearing that kind of stuff used to announce the chosson and kallah)
Kosher words = kosher song. Kosher music = a plus especially because we support our own when we buy an album with a Yossi Green or Boruch Levine etc composed song.
Borderline – using a few notes from goyish music as a backup during a wedding or on an album.
I love Baker Street….
BS”D
Mike – the answer is secular, except Matisyahu who is borderline (probably OK for teenagers who are rebelling or falling off, and something that should be outgrown by about age 20).
I heard a Leonard Cohen album once and he takes vaguely kodesh themes mixed with notzri themes and turns them into the worst trash imaginable. That is metamtem es halev :(.
Daas: You mean like it says in Shulchan aruch?
So that’s where that is! 😉
Actually, that’s the same sefer which says that “divrei cheshek” is assur (O”C 307 16). If we realized that inappropriate ideas were really assur, I don’t think we would “sample” them.
zahavasdad,
So I guess all those frum couples who came out of the Yichud room to Baker Street or The Final Countdown are treif?
I was referring more to inappropriate lyrics than music., and I never called anybody treif, I was comparing issurim, not denigrating people.
I bet if you were married in the last 20 years you came out to one of those songs too
I don’t remember; I do know that I insisted that no goyish tunes be used for dancing (which is worse).
I guarentee you know those songs, Go to youtube and look for Baker Street and The Final Countdown by Europe (Dont worry they are sung by men) and you will instantly recognize them
B”H my filter does not allow youtube, although I know that those songs have a non Jewish source.
BTW, to italicize, use the em tag as follows:
<em>text</em>“Matisyahu who is borderline (probably OK for teenagers who are rebelling or falling off, and something that should be outgrown by about age 20)”.
thats a pretty vague and simplistic view…
“You mean beyond opera? “
The Rov also permitted men and women to sing zmirot together at the Shabat table, as have many other poskim.
“everyone knows the difference between Jewish music and nonJewish!!!”
I certainly do not.
The truth is that there is almost no “Jewish music” that has not been influenced by the non-Jewish forms of the time. The only music by Jewish composers I’ve found that really is sufficiently different that I one can safely say that it is not beholden to non-Jewish musical tradition is the atonal work of Arnold Schoenberg. And while Schoenberg wrote a number of works inspired by Judaism including the opera “Moses und Aron”, a setting of “Kol Nidre” and the oratorio “A Survivor from Warsaw” to honor the memory of the six million, I doubt any of his compositions will ever be played at a simchah.
Actually its likely easy to tell which song you came out to, Just watch the Video or DVD. The song will be in the backround
Baker Street, The Final Countdown or the Hawaii Five Oh TV Show theme (Another Popular enterance song) are not really dancing songs
Zahavasdad-
I got married a year and a half ago and I did not come out of the yichud room to either of those songs. So you are wrong.
Actually its likely easy to tell which song you came out to, Just watch the Video or DVD. The song will be in the backround
You’re right. You can tell that way. They used the introduction to Toronto Pirchei’s Uray Vonim.
If its the lyrics that move you, say the psukim without the coopted rock/pop/broadway/country/r&b tunes.
innapropriate here and innappropriate there yet…….how many times do we hear parodies of an english song now done with words that make it seem jewish.
u know what i mean, the country yossi tunes and teh shlock rock ones and even more but im not too current on my music
the macabeats sampled a non jewish song for their popular Hanukah song this winter….they did a good job.
I think we could all agree that it is inappropriate to use Wagner and Mendelssohn as the processional and recessional music in Jewish weddings, as is the near universal custom in Christian weddings?
If you dont know goyish music, how would you know you didnt come out to those songs?
You can deny it all you want, But I hear them all the time at yeshivish Weddings (and I mean LAKEWOOD yeshivish People)
I am sure 99% of the people did not know where the song came from as they are played in Simcha Style
Baker Street is more Jazz (It really Needs a Saxaphone to played properly) and Simcha Music is different and doesnt use a Saxaphone
If you dont know goyish music, how would you know you didnt come out to those songs?
Everyone knows those songs from many weddings; besides, why couldn’t someone know that they came out to a different song?
“I bet if you were married in the last 20 years you came out to one of those songs too”
Bad bet to make. I have been to numerous weddings where the chosson/kallah insisted on only Jewish music and the band easily obliged them, INCLUDING for the opening dance. I don’t recall off-hand the songs used, but given the breadth of Jewish music out there, there must be (and are) options.
I feel the non-Jewish music is especially inappropriate at any seduas mitzvah, especially for a newlywed couple who are both newly tahor on their personal Yom Kippur, not to mention the rest of Klal Yisrael, so if some non-Jewish intro is played then I avoid dancing until the Jewish music starts.
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