Non-Zionist View of Zionists

Perhaps because idolatry is not rational, and the Zionist rabbis and laymen have been brainwashed with that idolatry since birth – as opposed to non-Orthodox which is a matter of fact, meaning rational thought, and anyone thinking rationally should obviously conclude that non-Orthodox is obviously wrong.

That’s like asking why should chassidim view litvaks differently than orthodox view reform, or due that matter why should Jews who say vsein bracha view Jews who dont say vsein bracha differently than Jews view Christians (there’s a million other permutations you can do with this)
The answer to your question is because the difference between Zionist and anti-zionist has very little in common with the difference between orthodox and non-orthodox (that’s why we use different terms to describe them by the way)

Because unlike those who are classified as non-Orthodox, those who identify as Zionist and Orthodox are Shomrei Torah and Mitzvos. We certainly have our differences, but when so many hate us and so many Jews are estranged, and we are still trying to rebuild the Beis ha’Mikdash which was destroyed due to Sinas Chinam, it as a rule would seem to behoove us to focus on the important things we share in common.

because zionists are more like notzrim and shatznikim, people with a crooked active AGENDA to redefine Judaism and take Jews away from Torah. Whereas secular jews are generally more interested in just not having anything to do with their “Jewish” label.
If you are asking about “non-orthodox” that are also not completely secular in that they claim some sort faux-Judaism, it’s a mute point since they are almost always also zionist. For the few anti-zionist secularist activists, they usually don’t have much of a religious agenda, just political.

In short, the zionist “rabbis” (especially the ones who call themselves charedi) are the greatest danger to Yiddishkeit today. It is the most successful version of “Jews for J” in histroy.

Well, obviously because they are shomer Torah u’mitzvos unlike non-Orthodox. Just because people have different views doesn’t mean they should be looked down on. You could ask the same question the other way around, why should Zionist rabbis and laymen view non-Zionist rabbis and laymen much differently than Orthodox rabbis and laymen view non-Orthodox rabbis and laymen? Ayin Panim La’Torah. There were and are some very great rabanim and tremendous talmidei chachamim who have been unfortunately “cancelled” and never even heard of in some communities simply because they were/are “Zionists”. Another thing is that this whole question is a huge over simplification. It’s not black and white, Zionists and non-Zionists. You have a very wide range with everything in between all ehrlich good Yidden following their rabanim and their understanding of what Hashem wants from us.

Dear HaKatan

A few months ago, we all agreed to STOP
talking about Zionism vs anti-Zionism,
because that topic led to endless malchlokes,
which is itself a very great sin,
plus many other severe sins, including:
Lashon HaRa, Motzi Shem Ra, laitzanus, Onaas Devarim, etc, etc, etc.

With all due respect, I request that you honor
that agreement by NOT discussing these controversial topics,
because they lead to many sins.

I thank you very much in advance for your kind co-operation.
And may G*D reward me for my sincere efforts to make Shalom.

Sincerely,
SQUARE_ROOT

When the Balfour Declaration was offered to the Gedolim in POLAND ,some refused and wanted everything or nothing. The Gaon Reb Yosef Engel intervened and forced their hand to accept. But if would have been all of Eretz Yisrael everyone was on board. There is no one greater than the Beis Haotzar and his other 100 sefarim. So you see Political Zionism is …

somejew- that’s a pretty bold and frankly repugnant claim. Can you expand on how you came to that ridiculous conclusion?

Square root with all die respect, people are people and nobody should censure themselves to maintain “peace” life is not always peaceful..
What happens when you demand peace when people have grievences is it becomes a recipe for control, which makes people angry and resentful. Let people talk they enjoy this topic. Nobody is ever going to agree anyways.
You agreed, clearly they didn’t

People, all of us truly want to be good. If you want to persuade someone to your point of view, you would need to nicely explain your point. Otherwise they will become defensive and won’t be able to hear you at all.
I would say that they should be viewed like modern orthodox rabbis- good people, but mistaken in one is more areas.
Mobico: If we don’t stand up to those who do aveiros, or at least are less than our level, or just against any pirtza (which is a mitzvah according to the the Chofetz Chaim) we will very soon find ourselves in a downward spiral. But because of lashon hora, I would explain dati leumi similar to how I’d talk about modern Orthodox; It’s beautiful whatever they do keep of the Mitzvos, but they’re mistaken in some way or another. That means keeping us to our standards- not lashon hora, sinas chinom, etc.
We need all levels of Yiddishkeit; we can learn from everyone. When the Satmar Rebbe came to America, his piety caused waves all over the Jewish spectrum, as even Modern-Orthodox Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik commented, and everyone became more frum. Of course, they can learn a thing or two from the yeshiva world too. The Gedolei Yisroel and Eda/Satmar Rabbanim had and still have mutual reverence, in a way you never saw for Zionist Rabbis.
So if you went to a yeshivish yeshiva, and you want to go in your Rosh Yeshiva’s ways, then do like they are doing: they’re minds are only in Torah learning; They don’t bother about giving or getting back land. They don’t believe that the Israeli government is keeping us safe – only Hashem does.

RightJew: The Ramban who insists that this pasuk is active through all generations, did not live in Eretz Yisroel nor did anything to settle the land.

R’ Moshe Feinstein: It is obvious living in Eretz Yisroel is not an obligatory mitzvah in our time, for if so, it would result in a prohibition to live in outside the land because doing so would be violating a positive commandment… Now, since it is not an obligatory mitzvah, you must definitely take into consideration the concern of Rabbeinu Chaim in Tosafos as to whether you will be able to keep the special mitzvos of Eretz Yisroel.
Igros Moshe Even Hoezer 1:102

Debater – I hate to tell you this, but the Ramban actually did move to Eretz Yisrael, and lived there for 3 years before his death.

R Chaim Mintz quotes R Moshe Feinstein right after 6 day war: you can’t do mitzvos with a wall, kotel was not worth lives of Jewish soldiers who died fighting for it.

DaMoshe, I’m sorry for my mistake with the Ramban!
AAQ: The Isreali government is doing an issur with protecting us. They are actually putting us in great danger with their nation state, as with giving Jews a nation before Moshiach, they are provoking the nations and “spilling Jewish blood like the gazelles and deer of the field”. Again, they are putting us into great danger, not protecting us.

By asserting political sovereignty and defying exile, Zionism unnecessarily provokes hostility from neighboring countries and the broader international community, placing physical targets on the backs of Jews living both inside and outside of Israel.

Rabbi Yitzchok Zev Soloveitchik – The Brisker Rav once asked: Why is the wording of the last oath different from the first two? In the first two it says, “If you arouse and if you awaken,” and in the last one it says, “Why do you arouse and why do you awaken?” The first two oaths are said before the Jewish people make any attempt to throw off the yoke of exile, warning them not to force the end and establish a state by human power before the coming of Moshiach. The third oath speaks to the time after the oath has already been violated: Why do you arouse? — after you have seen that violating the oath did not help you at all, why do you continue in your folly of provoking the nations and spilling Jewish blood like the gazelles and deer of the field?
Uvdos Vehanhagos LeBeis Brisk, v. 4 p. 187 (related by R’ Meir Soloveitchik)

Rabbi Aharon Kotler
Rosh Yeshiva of Lakewood NJ · 1891-1962
At the Agudah convention in 1937, in reference to the Peel Commission’s proposal, Rabbi Aharon Kotler rejected any suggestion for a Jewish state, even on both sides of the Jordan, even if it was established on a religious foundation, because this would be a sort of denial of the belief in the coming of moshiach. Even worse, this small state would be built on the foundation of kefirah and the name of heaven would be desecrated.
Hapardes (Year 11, Issue 7)

Rabbi Yisroel Meir Kagan
Author of Chofetz Chaim · 1838-1933
We must follow in the footsteps of Yaakov Avinu in his encounter with his brother Esav. As the Ramban writes in Vayishlach, all that happened between Yaakov and Esav happens to us constantly with Esav’s children, and we must adopt the methods of that tzaddik, to make the three preparations that he made: prayer, a gift, and escape through war, that is, to flee and take refuge. As long as we walked on that well-tread path, Hakadosh Baruch Hu saved us from their hands. But since we have strayed from the path and new leaders have arisen who chose new methods, leaving behind our ancestors’ weapons and adopting the methods of our enemies, we have fared worse and worse, and great travails have befallen us. The Torah teaches us not to resist the nations even when they fight against us. If the activists of our time were wise, they would understand that they must not provoke the nations or fight wars against them. Rather they must first study the parsha of Yaakov’s meeting with Esav, the Parsha of Golus, and then follow in the footsteps of our wise ancestor. Then they would succeed in improving the lot of the sheep among the seventy wolves.
Chofetz Chaim Al HaTorah, Parshas Devarim and Shmini

Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky
Rosh Yeshiva of Torah Vodaas · 1890-1986
As long as the Jewish people hope the redemption will come in a natural way, that the nations of the world will have mercy on us and give us some place to build ourselves a homeland or the like, the redemption will certainly not come, for the kindness of the nations of the world is considered a sin, and in truth, we are hated by the entire world. Only if we give up on such delusions and realize that we have no one to rely upon but our Father in heaven, then moshiach will come and bring us the true redemption.
Emes Leyaakov, Devarim 32:36

Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch
Rabbi of Frankfurt · 1808-1888
Israel is a nation and became a nation only through and for the Torah; it possessed land and statehood only as instruments for translating the Torah into living reality. This is why Israel was a people even before it possessed land and statehood; this too is why Israel survived as a people even after its land was destroyed and its statehood lost, and this is why it will survive as a nation as long as it does not lose its only inheritance, the sole foundation of its survival and significance — the Torah. The Torah was not given for Eretz Yisroel; Eretz Yisroel was given for the Torah! …The Torah obliges us, further, to allow our longing for the far-off land to express itself only in mourning, in wishing and hoping; and only through the honest fulfillment of all Jewish duties to await the realization of this hope. But it forbids us to strive for the reunion or possession of the land by any but spiritual means.
Horeb, p. 460

AAQ: “Tanach and gemora are full of bad kings and political movements, Jews were behaving according to the situation.”

But you don’t get the argument that EVEN IF THE ISREALI GOVERNMENT WOULD’VE YES ACTED ACCORDING TO THE HALACHA, IT WOULD’VE STILL BE AGAINST THE TORAH TO HAVE A NATION STATE. When they do against the halacha it’s of course much worse, but even if they would’ve, it still is wrong to have a Jewish state before the Messiah.

About bad kings and political movements BEFORE the galus, each time when the Jews didn’t behave according to the Torah, the Jews suffered because of it.

Debater> I like your quote from R Moshe Feinstein. That is exactly what I mean to say!

Well, I brought it as an example how even greatest T’Ch alwas get ruach hakodesh … We now know how 6 day war changed attitudes both in Israel and in USA and in USSR, leading to so much learning in Yerushalaim and baalei teshuva all other the world. It was really a turning point for a lot of Yidden.

No wonder R Moshe did not see it in the midst of the events. As I heard from R Steinsaltz, sometimes it takes centuries for rabonim to come to conclusion, such as “why Beis Hamikdash was destroyed”

Who is Debater?

UJM? HaKatan? SomeJewIKnow? Some new person?

@damoshe
rambam hilchos maluchim: “ain ben olam hazeh lolam habuh chitz m’shibid guliyos”

Square_root – does it matter?

The History They Don’t Teach You: Zionism’s Socialist Roots
If you want to understand the origins of Zionism, stop looking at it through a modern lens.
Let’s add a note to history that most people completely miss: Zionism and the Haskalah (the Jewish Enlightenment/assimilation movement) went hand-in-hand as a massive historical chain reaction. And to be even more concise, early Zionism was internally built on communism and socialism.
Here is the direct timeline of how it actually happened:
The First Footprint: many European Jews tried everything to achieve legal emancipation and equal rights. Through the Haskalah, movement they sought total cultural assimilation. They did not succeed. Assimilation failed to stop the hatred. From the devastating Eastern European pogroms to the horrors of Kristallnacht, even the most integrated, secular Jews were targeted and hunted down anyway. Realizing that integration was a lie and no one was coming to rescue them, they stopped begging for acceptance and started creating their own defense.But here is the twist they don’t teach you: when these people went to build their defense, , .They realized international socialism wouldn’t save them from antisemitism, so they combined intense nationalism with radical socialism to build a survival mechanism.If we don’t study these exact cause-and-effect relationships, we miss the entire context of why these movements began. Stop looking at the past through modern lenses. Read the history.

to clarify :The Haskalah (Jewish Enlightenment) promised that if Jews assimilated, adopted European culture, and integrated, they would receive equal rights and safety. Zionism is the dark shadow of that broken promise. When pogroms and state-sponsored hatred proved that even the most secular, assimilated Jews were still targeted for destruction, Zionism emerged as the desperate backup plan. It was the realization that cultural integration had completely failed, those people(the Zionists) were forcing Jews to make the aliyah .
Zionism exists because the Haskalah failed to protect Jews through assimilation, and it was built because socialism provided the revolutionary blueprint to build a self-reliant society from scratch. and do the assimilation stronger r”l with a nationality and a defense system . this is how a non zionist should view Zionists , “a communist , socialist , left wing political group”

Somejew, thanks for bringing a fresh argument and from rambam! You seem to say that rambams view that jews will not be subjugated under moschiach and it is an only difference…

Possible answers: contrary to early zionist views, Medinah doesn’t mean that Jews are free. Not all Jewd are there, and it depends on usa and un, and has enemies around. BM1 was built after peace was achieved.

Or you can agree with r Kook that we are in the transition period.

somejew: The Rambam doesn’t say it’s assur. Currently, there is a Jewish state, but it’s beset by enemies on all sides, and constantly fighting for its survival. When Mashiach comes, the other nations will support it, instead of oppressing it. In foreign countries, Jews won’t have to deal with antisemitism anymore – we will be exalted, and non-Jews will fight for the right to serve us!

I can totally understand the people who claim that the Zionists saved Yidden, and I am also familiar with the historical Uganda proposal. However, while many people simply do not think deeply about it, imagine what a true Jewish state should actually look like.It is simply not possible to have a Jewish state in the most erliche way without it being countered by issurim chamurim (severe prohibitions). If you really think into it, the entire idea of creating a modern state ignores established halacha. Even a melech Yisroel had strict azhorus (warnings) restricting his actions, despite his royal authority. The concept of a government taking full charge of national economics and politics contradicts the basis of Yiddishkiet .

A state operates on civil law, which applies equally to all citizens. it is impossible to run a ultra orthodox bureaucracy—managing an economy, having international relations, infrastructure, and a military—while perfectly adhering to halacha such as basic Sabbath observance for the entire infrastructure or laws like Shmita. the concept of an ultra orthodox government which relies on absolute state sovereignty—the power to tax, control the economy, pass civil laws, and declare wars based on human political theory rather than divine mandate. placing human political authority above the Torah is a form of …you name it .
Without a prophet, a Sanhedrin, or a king from the House of David, there is no legal halachic mechanism to form a ruling body that has the authority to make laws, levy taxes for a state, or draft people into an army. just think into it , all this is even if you would of had an erkiche state , kol shekien a modern state , and this is despite the shalos shevous , just think into it .

I also looked into Rabbi Kook’s philosophy, and it is clear his approach centered on the idea that we are in the “beginning of the redemption.” However, it is important to note that the mainstream rabbinic authorities of his era did not agree with his position. He was simply an optimist with a revolutionary vision.Furthermore, he made several claims that sharply contradict traditional Jewish thought. For example, during his eulogy following the death of Theodor Herzl, he famously compared Herzl’s movement to Messiach ben Joseph. Finally, the timeline itself is telling: Rabbi Kook passed away in 1935 long before the State of Israel was officially founded in 1948. its perplexed ,
I have one final note to add , there are various people historians who try to make Rav kook view tempting , Rav kook was in isreal from about 1904 many things happened in those years , how ever after he gave out his Oiros , in about 1920 , everyone came out against him including the chafits chaim .

Zanvil> Finally, the timeline itself is telling: Rabbi Kook passed away in 1935 long before the State of Israel was officially founded in 1948.

what is it telling to you? sounds like that he saw what is coming, whether via ruach hakodesh or sevorah. (I am not really a follower and see problems with some activities of his followers).

> everyone came out against him including the chafits chaim .
I am not aware of direct quotes that say this, despite reading Ch Ch letters from his later years (1920s-30s).
the story says that he wanted both old yishuv and mossad r Kook to learn Mishna Berurah and was afraid that he will be forced to take sides if he comes in EY (“I will have to go to one of them first, and the other group will abandon MB)