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Why should non-Zionist rabbis and laymen view Zionist rabbis and laymen much differently than Orthodox rabbis and laymen view non-Orthodox rabbis and laymen.
Joseph Goebbels,
Why should anyone care about your hateful posts about other Jews? Your close relative was an SS officer so you’re full of filthy Nazi blood and not even Jewish!
Perhaps because idolatry is not rational, and the Zionist rabbis and laymen have been brainwashed with that idolatry since birth – as opposed to non-Orthodox which is a matter of fact, meaning rational thought, and anyone thinking rationally should obviously conclude that non-Orthodox is obviously wrong.
Dear UJM,
A few months ago, we all agreed to STOP
talking about Zionism vs anti-Zionism,
because that topic led to endless malchlokes,
which is itself a very great sin,
plus many other severe sins, including:
Lashon HaRa, Motzi Shem Ra, laitzanus, Onaas Devarim, etc, etc, etc.With all due respect, I request that you honor
that agreement by NOT discussing these controversial topics,
because they lead to many sins.If you do not co-operate, I will retaliate with all of my might
by flooding this Coffee Room with comments that refute yours.If you think that I have exhausted my supply of ammunition,
then I assure you that you are very mistaken about that.I thank you very much in advance for your kind co-operation.
And may G*D reward me for my sincere efforts to make Shalom.
Sincerely,
SQUARE_ROOTThat’s like asking why should chassidim view litvaks differently than orthodox view reform, or due that matter why should Jews who say vsein bracha view Jews who dont say vsein bracha differently than Jews view Christians (there’s a million other permutations you can do with this)
The answer to your question is because the difference between Zionist and anti-zionist has very little in common with the difference between orthodox and non-orthodox (that’s why we use different terms to describe them by the way)Simple really…. The reason is because this is another lame attempt to provoke and spark a stupid conversation that will change absolutely no one’s viewpoints, simply because you get a rise out of being glued to YWN all day, looking for opportunities to rip on Zionists. Same goes for Hakatan. What losers.
#Fail
#LoserBecause unlike those who are classified as non-Orthodox, those who identify as Zionist and Orthodox are Shomrei Torah and Mitzvos. We certainly have our differences, but when so many hate us and so many Jews are estranged, and we are still trying to rebuild the Beis ha’Mikdash which was destroyed due to Sinas Chinam, it as a rule would seem to behoove us to focus on the important things we share in common.
Why shouldn’t Torah observant Jews view ujm and his Satmar/N.K. gang as non-Orthodox Reform heretics who have ripped out whole mitzvahs and halachos from the Torah (such as the ones below and others) while hiding behind a fake facade of “anti-Zionism”?
“וְהוֹרַשְׁתֶּ֥ם אֶת־הָאָ֖רֶץ וִֽישַׁבְתֶּם־בָּ֑הּ כִּ֥י לָכֶ֛ם נָתַ֥תִּי אֶת־הָאָ֖רֶץ לָרֶ֥שֶׁת אֹתָֽהּ׃
And you shall take possession of the land and settle in it, for I have assigned the land to you to possess.
” (BaMidbar 33:53)“עוֹבְדֵי כּוֹכָבִים וּמַזָּלוֹת שֶׁצָּרוּ עַל עֲיָרוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל אִם בָּאוּ עַל עִסְקֵי מָמוֹן אֵין מְחַלְּלִין עֲלֵיהֶן אֶת הַשַּׁבָּת וְאֵין עוֹשִׂין עִמָּהֶן מִלְחָמָה. וּבְעִיר הַסְּמוּכָה לַסְּפָר אֲפִלּוּ לֹא בָּאוּ אֶלָּא עַל עִסְקֵי תֶּבֶן וְקַשׁ יוֹצְאִין עֲלֵיהֶן בִּכְלֵי זַיִן וּמְחַלְּלִין עֲלֵיהֶן אֶת הַשַּׁבָּת. וּבְכָל מָקוֹם אִם בָּאוּ עַל עִסְקֵי נְפָשׁוֹת אוֹ שֶׁעָרְכוּ מִלְחָמָה אוֹ שֶׁצָּרוּ סְתָם יוֹצְאִין עֲלֵיהֶן בִּכְלֵי זַיִן וּמְחַלְּלִין עֲלֵיהֶן אֶת הַשַּׁבָּת. וּמִצְוָה עַל כָּל יִשְׂרָאֵל שֶׁיְּכוֹלִין לָבוֹא וְלָצֵאת וְלַעֲזֹר לְאַחֵיהֶם שֶׁבַּמָּצוֹר וּלְהַצִּילָם מִיַּד הָעוֹבְדֵי כּוֹכָבִים וּמַזָּלוֹת בְּשַׁבָּת. וְאָסוּר לָהֶן לְהִתְמַהֲמֵהַּ לְמוֹצָאֵי שַׁבָּת. וּכְשֶׁיַּצִּילוּ אֶת אֲחֵיהֶן מֻתָּר לָהֶן לַחֲזֹר בִּכְלֵי זַיִן שֶׁלָּהֶן לִמְקוֹמָם בְּשַׁבָּת כְּדֵי שֶׁלֹּא לְהַכְשִׁילָן לֶעָתִיד לָבוֹא:
‘
(Rambam, Hilchot Shabbat 2:23)because zionists are more like notzrim and shatznikim, people with a crooked active AGENDA to redefine Judaism and take Jews away from Torah. Whereas secular jews are generally more interested in just not having anything to do with their “Jewish” label.
If you are asking about “non-orthodox” that are also not completely secular in that they claim some sort faux-Judaism, it’s a mute point since they are almost always also zionist. For the few anti-zionist secularist activists, they usually don’t have much of a religious agenda, just political.In short, the zionist “rabbis” (especially the ones who call themselves charedi) are the greatest danger to Yiddishkeit today. It is the most successful version of “Jews for J” in histroy.
ujm: I am certain I’m wasting my time writing this, because based on your previous posts you will never reevaluate your views no matter how much truth you’re exposed to. You have your own truth and everyone else is either wrong, a rasha or an apikorus.
If I understand your question correctly you are saying that “Zionist rabbis are no different than Reform “Rabbis”. First of all, having a Zionist view is a hashkafic view not halachic. Reformers totally disregard halacha and the receiving of written and oral Torah at Sinai. Zionist rabbis of today observe and poskin halacha for their communities. The bochurim in Merkaz HaRav Kook study the same Gemara, Shulchan Aruch, Chumush, Rambam, Mussar, and Kabbala than in the non-Zionist yeshivas. In fact, some of them learn and understand better than many of their counterparts in Mir, Ponevezh, Chevron, etc. The Hassidic and Litvish world does not have a monopoly on Torah scholarship. You may disagree with his views or even hate him personally (and many did) but nobody could not rank Rav Kook zt”l among the Gedolim of his generation. In America one could say the same of Rav Yosef Soloveitchik zt”l. More recently, men like Rav Yitzhak HaLevy Herzog zt”l, Rav Shlomo Goren zt”l, and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu zt”l were giants way beyond the confines of the Beit Midrash. They used their great knowledge to deal with real world issues that no posek in the previous 2000 years had even contemplated. Today, I would rank Rav Hershel Schachter among anyone in Lakewood or elsewhere.
Well, obviously because they are shomer Torah u’mitzvos unlike non-Orthodox. Just because people have different views doesn’t mean they should be looked down on. You could ask the same question the other way around, why should Zionist rabbis and laymen view non-Zionist rabbis and laymen much differently than Orthodox rabbis and laymen view non-Orthodox rabbis and laymen? Ayin Panim La’Torah. There were and are some very great rabanim and tremendous talmidei chachamim who have been unfortunately “cancelled” and never even heard of in some communities simply because they were/are “Zionists”. Another thing is that this whole question is a huge over simplification. It’s not black and white, Zionists and non-Zionists. You have a very wide range with everything in between all ehrlich good Yidden following their rabanim and their understanding of what Hashem wants from us.
Just to repeat what everyone has been saying… Religious Zionists are shomerei Torah uMitzvos. They believe in the 13 ikkarimn of the Rambam. They disagree how we relate to a secular but Jewish run state before the coming of Mashiach, and how we relate to secular Jews who may even be anti-religious. It’s certainly a machlokes, but not where near the fundamental principles that separate us from the non-Orthodox. One can even make the argument that the hashkafic and halachic differences between the religious Zionist and the religious non Zionist are smaller than the differences between Chasidim and Misnagdim.
Dear HaKatan
A few months ago, we all agreed to STOP
talking about Zionism vs anti-Zionism,
because that topic led to endless malchlokes,
which is itself a very great sin,
plus many other severe sins, including:
Lashon HaRa, Motzi Shem Ra, laitzanus, Onaas Devarim, etc, etc, etc.With all due respect, I request that you honor
that agreement by NOT discussing these controversial topics,
because they lead to many sins.I thank you very much in advance for your kind co-operation.
And may G*D reward me for my sincere efforts to make Shalom.Sincerely,
SQUARE_ROOT@simcha613
“religious zionist” are kofer in the ikar of moshiach in the ikar of schar v’onesh and the ikar of torah sh’bal’peh.they (you) are farther from yiddishkeit than the notzrim.
When the Balfour Declaration was offered to the Gedolim in POLAND ,some refused and wanted everything or nothing. The Gaon Reb Yosef Engel intervened and forced their hand to accept. But if would have been all of Eretz Yisrael everyone was on board. There is no one greater than the Beis Haotzar and his other 100 sefarim. So you see Political Zionism is …
Stupid question that shouldn’t even be given the time of day.
somejew- that’s a pretty bold and frankly repugnant claim. Can you expand on how you came to that ridiculous conclusion?
This conversation is an excellent way of causing endless machlokes.
This conversation is an excellent way of causing to hate each other.
This conversation is an excellent way of causing Lashon HaRa and Motzi Shem Ra.
This conversation is an excellent way of causing Laitzanus and Onaas Devarim.
This conversation is an excellent way to be Zoche Gehinom — and disguise it as a mitzvah!!
Square root with all die respect, people are people and nobody should censure themselves to maintain “peace” life is not always peaceful..
What happens when you demand peace when people have grievences is it becomes a recipe for control, which makes people angry and resentful. Let people talk they enjoy this topic. Nobody is ever going to agree anyways.
You agreed, clearly they didn’tThey should be viewed the same. All humans should be viewed as being created in the image of God. What is the question?
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