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Someone (a mashgiach, I think) once used the following example to illustrate how the material / media world is based on illusions and false advertising (as oppsosed to Torah, which is eternal and absolute truth)
“Even today’s newspaper (meaning its current news) was printed yesterday”
OK, in today’s instant on-line immediate world, that example would not work. But his point is still valid. What we are presented as fact, is not necessarily so.
Can anyone think of more timely examples? I’ll start:
On the way to work today (NYC) I passed the 2nd Ave Kosher Deli, which is not on 2nd avenue and is not kosher! (its what is called “kosher style; no mashgiach, owner not frum and they are open on Shabbos)
“Even today’s newspaper (meaning its current news) was printed yesterday”
BP Totty,
Yes, today’s newspaper contains yesterday’s news, but there is one important thing to consider — no one expects it to be otherwise. That’s not sheker in my book. It’s akin to saying that you’re not happy with your copy of “The Complete Works of Fill-in-your-favorite-author-here” because it doesn’t include the unpublished short story he wrote in high school. You understand “Complete Works” to mean published works — not every scrap of everything that he ever wrote.
Or, in shorter terms — consider the context.
The Wolf
Bp Totty this quiz is pretty “sheker”
1) How long did the Hundred Years War last? 116 years
2) Which country makes Panama hats? Ecuador
3) From which animal do we get cat gut? Sheep and Horses
4) In which month do Russians celebrate the October Revolution? November
5) What is a camel’s hair brush made of? Squirrel fur
6) The Canary Islands in the Pacific are named after what animal? Dogs
7) What was King George VI’s first name? Albert
8) What color is a purple finch? Crimson
9) Where are Chinese gooseberries from? New Zealand
10) What is the color of the black box in a commercial airplane? International Orange (of course)
The world is full of Sheker. With today’s world’s events, with the world demonizing Israel, when she tries to protect herself, and the world remains silent regarding the exact same issues or worse, that are happening in other countries. We can see how it is Oiliam HaSheker.
Blinky,
For at least some of those, there are good reasons for the “misleading” names:
1. Aproximation.
2. I have no idea.
3. Ditto
4. I’m fairly certain (I could be wrong, however) that this is because the date came out in October in the Julian Calendar.
5. I wouldn’t be surprised (although I could be wrong) if it originally did have camel’s hair
6. Latin for dogs = canus. Hence the word canine.
7. Done out of deference to Queen Victoria. In practice, the British Monarch can choose any of their given names (and they usually have several) as their regnal name.
8. No idea
9. No idea
10. Just as a guess, they may have originally been black and then later changed to orange to increase visibility.
The Wolf
Then i guess the “sheker” that i posted is “sheker” just proves what this thread is about:)
when i read the topic i was thinking more of how the news is portrayed as fact, yet its portrayed in a very SUBJECTIVE manner.
for eg:
1) see what England says about American independence and 13 colonies
2) see what America says about how (was it Roosevelt?) handled wwII – how much could’ve helped but didn’t.
3) current news, what are the FACTS of the Gaza blockade and how is the world portraying it?
4) the whole Emmanuel crisis. (I don’t know if I’ll ever fully understand it)
Basically it’s very hard (maybe even imposable) to find news/ anything that is 100% objective.
Even more – what an olam hasheker we live – look at the stress and importance gashmiyus is given. all the brand names that have almost become a “must” for our children!
not to mention – some of us!
hebrew national hot dogs- where did the hebrew come from?
:: blushing ::
Thanks, BP. No, I didn’t Google it (if I did, I wouldn’t have left any unanswered.)
The Wolf
To bring back an old memory:
<Linda Richman>
I’m all verklempt. I can’t talk. Talk amongst yourselves. I’ll give you a topic. Rhode Island is neither a road, nor an island. Discuss.
</Linda Richman>
The Wolf
What, a memory of all the failures in the testing thread?
Nah, I just used code so that I could use the “Linda Richman” tag without messing up the board. I had no idea it was going to add the br tags on it’s own.
Thanks for fixing it.
[ Maxwell Smart ]
Sorry about that, chief.
[ /Maxwell Smart ]
The Wolf
ch123, Hebrew National uses shechita and is kosher, but its not glatt . Basically, most people who keep strictly kosher/glatt kosher don’t eat it, but its not treif.
I like their ads, “No ifs, ands or butts”
Those that don’t eat it hold it IS treif(or rather it may be treif and therefore treat it as such), that’s why they don’t eat it. It’s got nothing to do with glatt.
Those that don’t eat it hold it IS treif(or rather it may be treif and therefore treat it as such), that’s why they don’t eat it. It’s got nothing to do with glatt.
Not necessarily.
I don’t eat it because I prefer to maintain a higher standard for myself. But I would NEVER tell someone who was eating HN that he was eating treif. The same goes for any number of lesser-known hashgachos.
The Wolf
Mod-80,
All my research on the subject lately (including talking to some rabbonim) concludes that the shechita is technically kosher shechita but is definitely not glatt. Almost noone orthodox holds by that hechsher though for normal usage. I don’t think anyone defines it as 100% treif.
Glatt today is not really glatt. Its a misnomer. I think Beis Yosef is actually Glatt?
It is not vadei treif, but the hechsher is considered unreliable (thus a safek treif) by most people who wouldn’t eat it, not just because they want to hold themselves to a higher madreiga or they are machmirim. ALL those I know who would eat cholov stam wouldn’t touch hn. It falls into the same category as triangle K.
I can’t speak for you wolf or people you know. But this is the case for everyone I know who won’t eat it. Which is basically everyone I know who considers themselves to be shomrei Kashrus.
No one suggested telling people who eat hn that they are eating treif
Mod,
Fair enough. I think we probably agree more than we disagree and are just dancing around differing definitions.
The Wolf
It is not vadei treif, but the hechsher is considered unreliable
I agree with that. But not treif per se. Its also more political than anything else.
No one I know (who calls themself observant) actually eats HN. It was just a topic of curiosity to me.
It is not merely a matter of politics. I have personal knowledge of the matter but do not wish to say more.
Re the Russian Revolution…
I’m fairly certain (I could be wrong, however) that this is because the date came out in October in the Julian Calendar.
Yes it is, Russia did not adopt the Gregorian Calendar until after the revolution. (The British empire did in 1752). The Catholic countries started in 1582. If anyone really wants to know way to much about calendars please ask. I have been researching the subject on and off for some time.
As for Hebrew national last I checked it was under the triangle-k. Though It has been some time as I have not been in the USA in several years.
Thanks, Zach. I knew that Russia adopted the Gregorian calendar later than the rest of Europe (heck, I have friends who celebrate Christmas in January because they belong to the Russian Orthodox church), but I wasn’t sure if it was before or after the Revolution.
The Wolf
What was King George VI’s first name? Albert?
Yes, it was. Albert assumed the style and title of King George VI to emphasise continuity with his father and restore confidence in the monarchy, after the constitutional crisis caused by the abdication of Edward VIII.
King Edward VII was also named Albert (Bertie) Edward by his mother Queen Victoria, with the intention that he would rule as King Albert Edward. He chose to use his second name, Edward, so as not to undervalue his father’s status among royalty.
Wolfishmusings, I look forward to and enjoy your postings very much.
Wolfishmusings, I look forward to and enjoy your postings very much.
:: blushing once again ::
Thank you very much for the compliment.
The Wolf
Those of us who are well informed about what goes on in Israel, frequently see wrong information, or twisted information in the world media about Israel.
OK, fine. WE, at least, KNOW it is wrong.
But that should teach us something more.
Israel may be one area where we KNOW we are getting misinformation, but regarding OTHER subjects in the news, about which we do NOT have the same degree of expertise, we STILL tend to BELIEVE the news, EVENTHOUGH we know the news is not accurate about the issue of Israel!
How do we know the news is accurate about the other “facts” it is telling us?!? Knowing the media lies about Israel, why are we not more doubtful about the veracity of ALL the news we hear?!?
It IS an OLAM HASHEKER! There used to be a clear dividing line in the media between hard news (i.e. FACTS) and editorials (i.e. opinion). Nowadays that line has totally blurred, and opinion is presented as fact!
An example of olam hasheker would be publicly proclaiming kosher meat to be treif because the hechsher is not the most reliable.
The medrash calls Hashem who is known as Tzur, that read it “haTzayor” meaning the painter. The best painter is the one who can produce a work of art that looks so real that you almost can’t tell. How great of a painter is Hashem that he “painted” a world to look so real that we actually call Olam Hazeh “reality”. Tikun Olam means to be mesaken, to fix, the helem that exists between Hashem and us, be tween Olam Hazeh and shomayim ruchniyos. Fix it by bringing kedusha into this world, by using this world to live a torah yiddishkeit life and by showing that Hashem is the King. That makes the veil, the helem, move away and we see the Olam HoEmes.
BP Totty: Is it the deli on 33rd between Lexington and 3rd? If so, they actually do have a kosher certification. I don’t know if it’s reliable, but it’s from a R’ Yisrael Meir Steinberg. The certificate (it’s on their website) says he’s a musmach of Torah V’Das and Beis Medrash Elyon.
Rabbi Steinberg is playing kashrus certification semantics. It says that the food is kosher. It probably is, when raw. 2nd Ave Deli is NOT shomer shabbos and as such the food is bosor she’nisaleim min ha’ayin and is technically treif. Mamish really not kosher. I’m sure that many MO are nichshal with this.
Kosher-style.
I hve never seen Steinberg give hashgocha on a place that says it is glatt. I have seen it at Ben’s in Syosset or someother such places. Mostly “kosher styled” places.
I wonder what the reaction of Yeshivah Torah Vodaath or Beis Medrash Elyon to his using their names as a way of bolstering his slim ne’emanus.
Here we go again, with people assuming that MO won’t be careful about kashrus. Why do you assume that?
I assume that many MO aren’t as careful about the “level” of kashrus as are right of center orthodox. I’ve had many discussions with MO people who routinely go out to lunch to treif restaurants, not Ben’s Deli, and eat fish or salads. Many more might not eat fish actually cooked in a treif place but will eat salads cut with treif knives in a salad bar etc. That is not to say that all MO do that. Nor is the exact concept of MO known. Many “heimishe” yidden will consider you MO if you don’t wear a black hat, even if you are makpid on cholov yisroel etc. I’m talking about the MO family where the females wear pants, the wife does not cover her hair at all, they always buy cholov akum, etc. My experience has been that they will also eat salads etc from a goyish store. This type may not know that Ben’s is not to be trusted. Theys ee the hechsher from Steinberg and think ok no problem. Now read what I said again. I said “I’m sure that many MO are nichshal with this”. That means ‘by accident, not on purpose” That does not mean that they are not careful. They just aren’t as careful as they should be be because MO are usually looking for any kulah they can find.
There are levels of MO
MO people with whom I am acquainted would NEVER order from Ben’s Deli.
Hebrew National was never treif meat in the past. I know personally the son (a Rov)of the former Rav Hamachshir). He always asserted that his father said that there was absolutely nothing intrinsically unkosher about Hebrew National, although it certainly was not a glatt hechsher. Those who were makpid on glatt at the time, would not eat it, but would not have been eating tarfus if they did.
Nowadays, the rov is gone, and I would not rely on what he said in the past. But at least 30 years ago, he stated it was kosher schechitah and kashering of the meat. BTW, I never used Hebrew National products at any time, but those who did, were not chayav on treif.
“MO are usually looking for any kulah they can find”
How can you say such a thing? MO have their own Rabbonim who they ask. Going by your Rav is not looking for kulos.
“as long as there’s a hechsher in place. But to suggest that they would willingly walk in to a place like Bens? “
2nd Ave Deli has a “hechsher”. Thats why I said that they might be nichshal by accident. You admit that some MO only look for any hechsher. I never said they would knowingly eat treif and I never called Hebrew National treif. I don’t mean this to demean MO at all.
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