August 28, 2018 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #1581118
Yup, that’s right. It’s another siddur thread.
I was searching through the introductory section of the Artscroll Ashkenaz siddur the other day to see if it said which traditional siddur they used as their basis, or at least which regional custom. I could find nothing of the sort. There is a vague reference in regards to how they order the bedtime shema that they go by the order traditional used by “most siddurim” even though it’s contrary to most poskim. This seems to also be the case with how they put birkas hatorah between asher yatzar and elokai neshama.
It’s definitely not based off of the Yekishe rite, and it’s definitely not based off of Nusach HaGra. What’s it based off of?
Also, while we’re here, on what do they base their Nusach Sephard? They had to pick some Chassidus’ interpretation of the Nusach, right?August 28, 2018 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1581563
Have you thought about contacting ArtScroll directly to see if they can search their archives from 30 years ago to find the answer?August 31, 2018 8:05 am at 8:05 am #1584065ParticipantParticipant
The blue siddur with unclear words.August 31, 2018 8:33 am at 8:33 am #1584077
You mean the Shilo?August 31, 2018 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1584115chaim flatbushParticipant
And it is also based on the chasam sofer oberlandish nissach adhkenaz.August 31, 2018 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1584124The little I knowParticipant
For many generations, the commonly available siddurim in both Ashkenaz and Sfard were created by publishers. The true Sephardic nuschaos are far more reliable as coming from a reputable source, but those in the Ashkenazic realm, including the contemporary Ashkenaz and Sfard lack this feature. There are siddurim that are based on kabala from the Ari Zal, and these also include many differences. Ultimately, the base siddur for all of these Ashkenazic nuschaos is the Roedelheim Siddur that was published by Rav Volf Heidenheim (talmid of Rav Nosson Adler, and chaver to the Chasam Sofer). he published his siddur 8 times, with modifications in each subsequent edition. It was probably republished after his death, but i don’t know if there were changes.
Nusach is a complex issue, and there are many, many nushchaos, with variations in many of them. It is not uncommon for combinations between features of one nusach and those of another, with such traditions occurring in the Litvishe velt just as in the Chassidishe velt.August 31, 2018 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #1584130Reb EliezerParticipant
There is a difference of opinion among the Ashkenezim when to say the Yom on Shabbos. The Chasam Sofer’s siddur has it after shacharis, whereas the Otzar Hatfilos has it before Anim Zemiros and the Artscroll has it after it.August 31, 2018 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1584136
Most ashkenazic siduurim that I own have the yom after Anim Zemiros.August 31, 2018 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1584150
“There is a difference of opinion among the Ashkenezim when to say the Yom on Shabbos. The Chasam Sofer’s siddur has it after shacharis, whereas the Otzar Hatfilos has it before Anim Zemiros and the Artscroll has it after it.”
The Mishnah Berurah also says to say it after Shachris (he brings the other opinion as a yesh omrim). I wonder why most siddurim seem to have the tradition to go with the yesh omrim; as iacisrmma pointed out, it’s not just Artscroll it’s most Ashkenaz siddurs (if not all).September 14, 2018 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1591132RedlegParticipant
In the YI style minyan in Florida that I daven in they say the Yom after Shacharis as per the MB cited above. Is that the official YI nusach?September 14, 2018 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1591164
redleg: There is no official YI policy regarding nusach (most YI branches daven ashkenaz). Not sure what a YI style is. Most ashkenazic minyanim say the yom after musaf.November 7, 2018 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #1619869MMYHSParticipant
its based off the local custom of the time and is constantly updatedNovember 7, 2018 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #1619887shualiParticipant
While, I believe, the Roedelheim siddur formed the nusach ha’tefilah as far as dikduk is concerned, Nusach Ashkenaz is largely built, I think, on the nusach of Rav Shabsi Sofer and Rav Hirsh Shatz. Even further back, it is based on the nusach of one of the Geonim. Some source indicate that Nusach Ashkenaz has its roots in what they call Nusach Bavli versus Nusach Yerushalmi. It is interesting to note that many of the changes we make on Shabbos (hashkiveinu and in the berachah achas me’ein sheva) on Yom Tov in avodah in chazaras ha’shatz (she’oscha livadcha) is based on the Nusach Yerushalmi.November 8, 2018 6:41 am at 6:41 am #1619936thinker123Participant
For a comprehensive article about nusach in today’s sidurim check the introduction to לוח ארז להיעב”ץ שיצא לאור על ידי רבי דוד יצחקי, its on otzer hachochma.November 8, 2018 8:02 am at 8:02 am #1619991
The question was never about the origins of Nusach Ashkenaz. There are many different directions a siddur could go with Nusach Ashkenaz as there are many yesh omrim’s in the classic Ashkenazi poskim. The question is how Artscroll makes those decisions.
The question of how they did Nusach Sphard is arguably even bigger. Which Chassidus did they go by?November 8, 2018 8:04 am at 8:04 am #1619995Reb EliezerParticipant
Older ashkenaz Artscroll siddurim have for Rosh Chodash bentching finishes with שימלאו משאלות לבנו whereas the new ones have ‘שימלא ה the first is problematic giving the impression that the fullfilment is automatic.November 8, 2018 9:55 am at 9:55 am #1620122JosephParticipant
Neville: Nusach Sephard is based on (and largely composed by) the Arizal.November 8, 2018 10:21 am at 10:21 am #1620139
Joseph, I don’t usually accuse of this, but are you trolling? Or, was I actually not clear that the discussion was about Artscroll?
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