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TLIK – So you are saying that the percentage of people who believe in free will in the “mental health community” is approximately the same as in the general population? How about in the frum community? The psych courses I took were replete with ideas that minimize, seek to minimize, or outright deny the abilities of people to determine their own choices. CBT is not the most flagrant offender in this regard but these attitudes and mentalities are the overwhelming consensus.
The idea that people can determine their own choices is part of the 13 principles (schar v’onesh) and is the reason the world exists.
CharlieHall: “Measurements of behavior are often as reliable as any other in medicine . . .” Behavior? Sure. Psychological causation of a particular behavior? Not as much. Especially if often the thing causing the behavior (or the underlying condition) is the exercise of an unpredictable undeterminable free will.
Also, the word “often” isn’t all that persuasive. As a statistician, are you suggesting no significant deviation? I’d find that hard to believe.
Moreover, as a jew I believe there is a body and a soul. I believe that the soul is far more directly involved in the brain’s function than it is in say the bowel’s function. I’d also say that psychologists are not – as a group – particularly well studied on the functions and disorders of the soul. Do you disagree?
Bottom line: Only a fool would completely discount the observations of social scientists and only a fool thinks that socials scientists have all the answers.
Frum…..:
Not sure where you took your courses. I will share what I know about mine and those to which I had exposure. There are several dozen personality theories, and these appear in every textbook used on the subject. Those professors that have their heads screwed on straight (yes, there are some that do) do NOT impose anything on anyone, and allow the students to develop their own path in the understanding of human personality. In fact, there is a grain of truth to every single one, even if there is zero research to support any of its contentions. I found many of them laughable, but interesting nevertheless. If that would not have been the case, even the goyishe kepp that allowed them into academic discussion would have excluded them as eccentric. I bet there are professors that push an agenda, and academia has been accused of that in the past. But that was not my experience, and my discussions with mental health professionals suggests that this agenda driven academia was not their experiences either.
As for free choice or free will, I never saw that anyone minimized it. What is obvious is that the field of psychology sought to understand human behavior enough to be able to predict it. Free will renders that ability less than 100% by definition. But in the real world, one may need to increase the determinant of behavior enough to yield an increase in it, and thus be able to produce changes that are statistically significant. Let’s use a real world example. One wishes to create advertising that produces greater sales and thus profit. In that field, it is known that those elements that draw attention and leave behind memory traces that are stronger will result in positive outcomes. This has been repeated in research countless times. Such application of research findings recognizes that one can influence behavior quite successfully. If these ads do not entice you, the advertiser couldn’t quite care – there are plenty more customers to pad his bottom line. This does not challenge free choice.
In practice, a therapist should not be pushing clients to make specific choices (with the exceptions of where education is needed or where there are issues of safety). It is about helping others make their choices, not pushing an agenda.
Lastly, your last statement to me, “The idea that people can determine their own choices is part of the 13 principles (schar v’onesh) and is the reason the world exists.” is not completely accurate. Yes, people ultimately make their own choices, Torah or psychology notwithstanding. But the Torah itself has an agenda, and we are instructed clearly “Uvochartoh bachayim”. WE are also told what to choose, although we possess the capacity at every juncture to ch”v go the other direction. When the therapist guides a client in making choices, it is truly about helping them in the process. That is what professionals are taught. And maybe there are some that choose to not follow that path. Ultimately, the client chooses the behavior.
You wrote, “I’d also say that psychologists are not – as a group – particularly well studied on the functions and disorders of the soul.” I disagree. Just as with any other group of people, there are those who believe in soul and a spiritual dimension and those who do not. In my personal experience, my interaction with mental health professionals is primarily with frum ones, and I find them to be believers of soul and neshomah. This may be less common among those dedicated to research and other non-applied psychology fields. Just an observation. Personally, I prefer to get my education and guidance on matters of the soul from Torah sources, not secular. I think I’ve done okay. But I do not think the field is set back by ignorance about the soul.
Your concluding line, “Bottom line: Only a fool would completely discount the observations of social scientists and only a fool thinks that socials scientists have all the answers.” is excellent and true.
Orthodox Jewish attitudes toward psychotherapy and psychiatric medications run the gamut. There are those who have no problem with them whatsoever — there are Orthodox Jews who are mainstream psychologists and psychiatrists, for example.
Then there are others who are completely against them. Some have come up with their own forms of therapy (based on chassidus, for example Zev Ballen). It’s possible their forms of therapy work as well or better than secular forms, since a lot of therapy involves trying to replace negative thought patterns with positive ones, and we have a long history of that in Yiddishkeit as well. (Gamzu l’tovah, “think well and it will be well,” emunah/bitachon, etc.) Numerous studies show that the positive psychological and health impact of prayer and meditation. (A study showed that psychology professors had the highest rate of atheism compared to all other academic disciplines, 80% or so — this something to consider as well, because therapists can influence their clients.)
And then there are those in the middle, who may be skeptical of some aspects of psychology and the use of medication, but in a case of great need would be comfortable using a good (hopefully frum psychologist) or medications as a last resort.
My own view is that medications should be used far less than they are, because of side effects, dependency, and the evidence showing that non-medical interventions (exercise, meditation, prayer, even dark chocolate) work as well or better than medications in improving mood.
yytz:
Some re-education needed here.
Psychology professors and atheism. This has little to no effect on clinical practice. For the greatest part, professors are academics, not clinicians. Furthermore, the ethical standards for all mental health professions (in many areas the laws regulating the practice, as well) prohibit any interference with the client’s value or belief system. If a psychologist or other therapist were to try convincing a client to abandon his/her faith, they would be sanctioned and perhaps lose their license. You are correct when the influence is more subtle, but that is in conflict with the training and professional standards.
Medication – it is either needed, or it is contraindicated. This forum is not a place where to pronounce whether medication is good, not good, or just a last resort. Even the non-medically trained therapists need to know when medication needs to be considered an option. To be anti medication is purely irresponsible. When it is not needed, it should not be taken.
You wrote: “My own view is that medications should be used far less than they are, because of side effects, dependency, and the evidence showing that non-medical interventions (exercise, meditation, prayer, even dark chocolate) work as well or better than medications in improving mood.”
All medications, including OTC ones,have side effects. None should ever be used unless they are indicated. The physician prescribes a medication with considering the balance between the risks (side effects) and benefits. Other opinions do not matter here. Dependency is a risk for only certain classes of medications. SSRI’s, for instance, do not carry dependency risk. There are a few case studies that found some technical aspects of physical dependency, but not at a level that is a challenge to overcome. Otherwise, dependency is usually not a factor. If symptoms return after stopping a medication, it indicates that it is still needed, not dependency. Non-medical interventions are sometimes effective. I have benefited from them myself. For certain conditions, they might be the treatment of choice. It is not appropriate to consider these as replacements for the other therapeutic methods. Exercise, prayer, and meditation are fabulous with wonderful results. It is the rare exception that these are substitutes for medication when it is needed.
Improving mood can involve many factors. Words of chizuk can be precious. So can humor. Yet, these are not treatments, but temporary methods of relief. Use them all you like, but do not into the anti-therapy mode, as it will not help much.
Tlik- I’ll concede that some psychologists believe in the soul. The problem is that the credibility assigned to psychologists as “experts” is partially misplaced because as a community they aren’t any more expert on the soul than dentists are. I don’t consult with my dentist regarding the spiritual ramifications of taking a medication or conditioning my behavior. I consult with an expert on spirituality. Your point earlier that there are many who people view as experts in that field that really aren’t is important but doesn’t minimize my point in any way.
Retarded means delayed, which means slowed down, which is not offensive.
Here how I see it:
The reason we are created is to make the right choices and do the right behaviors. We have a soul which naturally yearns for the spiritual, and a body which is physical. We are required to use our brains in a way which connects us to our souls and not our bodies. There is a good and evil inclination which represent the soul and body in our choices. All of this seems to me to be mainstream classic jewish thought.
Psychologists, on the other hand, are trained to think only about physical attributes. Often, psychological problems (or undesirable behavior) are physiologically rooted. For such problems, a psychological/psychiatric approach is entirely appropriate.
When the root of an undesired behavior is spiritual in nature, a spiritual expert should be consulted (if any expert need be consulted at all). The above statement seems to me incontrovertible. This is not to say other experts have no input on the treatment of the problem- just that the primary authority as to treatment should be given to the experts on each respective topic.
The big question: is the source of a given undesirable behavior physical or spiritual? The answer isn’t simple. I’d say to consult with experts in both fields. I’d also say that a good rabbi would not be biased against the field of psychology, whereas psychologists are often biased against rabbis.
But doctors can be corrupt.
Dear Matan
Our spirits have much larger dimensions functions and power then they teach in the western phycology books and classes .
The human being is not just limited to moods emotions recognitions memory vision and so on its much larger than that .
they are all small but important functions of the spirit.
If the psychologists would believe in the tzelem elokim and intelligent design they would find out a lot more about the power of the spirit and its energy and how to heal it.
therefore many frum psychologists and even some believing psychologists understand people much better and are very successful in helping people.
Do not believe their theory’s and everything they say just use your seichel .
Remember Freud ended his life by committing suicide.
They do not even understand the nefesh habehamies.
Western schools and society produces so many criminals who fill the jails because their psychologists do not understand them. Every goy has a spirit and if you reach out to it and communicate to it you can help them.
Therapy is always a good thing.
Chemical control is often over used and has terrible side affects.
Some top phycologists are honest and agree that they don’t fully understand the brain and there is a lot more to be learned.
Its like going to a heart specialist for a general check up he will check the heart but not the rest of the body.
when we try to help people we have to look at the general picture starting from their parents the environment they grew up and their purpose and goal in life their capabilities and so on.
People who don’t know their purpose in life and aware of their unique capabilities to occupy themselves naturally become very depressed and crazy ideas float through their minds.
If they new what they are good at and enjoyed doing they would be able to overcome their difficulties .
as for all the apikorsos written in those idiots books I always tell them sure this computer also evolved itself and appeared in a big bang.
Remember Hashem gave us many mitzvos that imply we are capable of fully controlling ourselves.
I wish you lots of hatzloche in your career.
also regarding the last comment of frumnotyeshivish .
I would like to quote Yoideah Tzadik nefesh behamtoi.
before we try to heal our neshomo.
we have to heal and take care of our nefesh habehamy.
if we have a dysfunctional spirit our neshomo can not function.
just like we cant serve Hashem if our bodies are not functional.
you cannot take advice of someone bokey in hilchos Shabbos about money matters. only a small percentage of talmidei chachomim understand chochmas hanefesh. its mostly concealed.
the torah always promises schar for the nefesh hbehamy.
Matan1, your words: “If someone if suffering from depression, anxiety, OCD or any other mental illness, it is completely and entirely irresponsible and dangerous to think that the root of the problem is spiritual.”
Responsibility and danger aren’t what we are discussing. We are discussing truth and reality. No one said that the above problems are necessarily spiritually rooted. You said (or at least implied) that they are necessarily not. If responsibility were an issue I’d call that irresponsible. Because it isn’t the issue, I’ll just call it presumptuous. How on earth could you know that in all cases of depression and anxiety the root of the issue is not spiritual? You would need a huge amount amount of scientific and spiritual knowledge for that proclamation. I’ll [attempt to] save you the effort of trying to persuade me of your scientific knowledge by informing you that you do not have enough.
“There is no heresy in clinical psychology. It’s all about helping people. I[f] that’s apikorsus, then I give up.”
Your point is meaningless. Imagine if someone said “There is no heresy in the Catholic Church. It’s all about helping people. If that’s apikorsus, then I give up.” You’d laugh them out of the building because they did nothing to address the subject matter of what either is or isn’t heresy.
Matan1
1) who are you to say or decide that the mind and spirit are not connected how much time have you spent studying and observing the spirit did you read the books of Zohar Or other thousands of mamrei chazal which discuss how the spirit works ? You are making an argument with out any scientific proof. the mind is very closely connected to our spirits. (and I am not talking about the Neshome) our spirits don’t just care about our spiritual feelings they care very much about our physical state and comfort I suggest that you do a little reading and observing the people around you including your own spirit before you come to any stupid conclusions.
2)Freud ordered his own murder whichever fancy language you want to use.
3)Criminals I am trying to make a point. that Modern Psychology has failed !!! look at the results !! look at societies problems !! they do not have proper solutions. I personally have treated many criminals by helping them understand their spirits and mindsets and using it to be successful in their jobs and keep out of trouble every trait can be used to the good or bad.
4)I have watched some of my patients being slowly killed off by drugs. it should be the very last option.
5)if you read my post you will see I did not say its heresy I just said and will say again WHEN YOU WILL START BELIVING IN YOUR OWN SPIRIT. OBSERVE IT AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT DAVEN TO HASHEM TO GIVE YOU THE KOWLEDGE. YOU WILL SEE THE BIGGER PICTURE AND BE ABLE TO HELP MANY PEOPLE.
I am not attacking you that you are doing anything wrong trying to study phycology.
You asked what our feelings about it are as frum yidden.
I gave you my observation after reading many psychology books studying many years many sefarim on chomas hanefesh and a lot of practical experience.
you don’t have to accept it from me but keep your mind open and don’t come to conclusions before you study properly and look at results.
A Git Shabbos
Matan: In terms of formal logic, your first idea is severely problematic. In the spirit of other posters here, one might even say retarded. I have not the time to write why now, but if you desire, after shabbos I can go through it. The second one suffers from the same problems as the Idea you are tring to be more precise about. Your reasoning doesn’t support your conclusion. Have a great shabbos. I’ll be back in a few days…
Euthanasia is sometimes suicide. It depends who does it to whom.
“As a statistician, are you suggesting no significant deviation?”
I do not understand what you are asking. Care to explain?
“I’d also say that psychologists are not – as a group – particularly well studied on the functions and disorders of the soul. Do you disagree?”
Have you read William James?
Is William James a group?
According to Wikipedia:
William James was an American philosopher and psychologist.
He also trained as physician. Some people labelled him the ‘father of American psychology’!!!
The little I know: I would agree with what you’re saying only with regards to illnesses like psychosis and schizophrenia.
When it comes to things like lack of concentration (ADD), depression and anxiety, there are many observers who reasonably believe, on scientific grounds alone, that medications are over-prescribed for these conditions.
The idea that anyone experiencing depression should be on medications, and that this is the only way to relieve the depression, is not accurate. Changing one’s thinking patterns (whether through secular therapy, religious counseling or other means), diet, lifestyle, exercise, social interactions, volunteering, writing in a journal, etc. also have profound effects on mood, and in many studies the magnitude of the effect is similar to or greater than that of medications.
Recent meta-analyses of articles measuring the effects of psychiatric medications for depression concluded that most of them have virtually no effect. There is documented corruption within drug companies, throwing away studies that show their drugs have bad side effects or have no effect. Some medications actually increase the risk of suicide (and even have that printed on the package under federal law).
Medications may be called for in many circumstances, but there are certainly grounds for skepticism, for believing that they are over-prescribed, and for considering them a last resort rather than the first line of defense for mood or concentration problems.
yytz:
Your turn for some re-education.
I am not the one who pushes medication for anything, and the judgment that it is required needs to be a professional, qualified balance between risks and benefits. You are correct that schizophrenia and other psychoses require medication. However, there are biochemical substrates to many other conditions. Not all depressions should be considered for medication. Someone whose depression is characterological, related to life events of losses and tragedies, etc. might well not even respond to anti-depressant medication. The professional evaluator should know the difference. In addition, today’s psychiatrists have only one part of their practice that is not shared with their non-medical colleagues in mental health – pharmacotherapy. Today’s psychiatrists specialize in using medications, not any version of talk therapy. People go for meds, not other forms of treatment. You have a point in the overuse of medication, but because psychiatrists only prescribe today, and because people tend to seek the quick fix. For these cases, medication is rarely effective. No pill enhances self esteem or makes people use better judgment. There is no “happy pill”.
Your meta-analysis studies – please provide a link or reference. I have reviewed many studies, and none of them resemble what you describe. Same goes for the rampant corruption you describe.
As for concentration problems, one would be wise to seek the evaluation and direction from only those psychiatrists who specialize in this area. The medication choices are better than in years past, but not every patient responds to the same medication. Unfortunately, too much prescribing in this area is done by those with mediocre (that’s overly generous) training and experience in attentional/concentration disorders. Many psychiatrists are not trained to work with children, and pediatricians have minimal psychiatric training in their background. Yet, our schools mandate medication before allowing a child with issues back into the school, as if the yeshiva staff have the expertise to evaluate, diagnose, and develop a treatment plan.
Bottom line – medication might not be a last resort. It is either required, or not. When not, it will not help and possibly harm. We just need to insure that proper evaluation is done to discern whether meds are a reasonable approach.
Actually, CBT can actually fit very well with emunah involved therapy. For example, helping someone to think more productively and also working on positive thinking and faith ect
TLIK: For starters, see “Antidepressant Drug Effects and Depression Severity: Patient-Level Meta-analysis” in JAMA, which found no effect for mild or moderate depression.
On the issue of over-prescription and not reporting negative studies, see “Drug Companies & Doctors: A Story of Corruption” in the NY Review of Books.
Psychology is easy and a lot of fun. most people who go for the degree usually go because they want to fix something of themselves and others they usually dont end up making enough money to support a family because too many people want the degree.
MsPrincess,
While there are weak programs in psychology as there are in most fields, the top programs in psychology are probably the most competitive doctoral programs in the world. I looked up admissions rates and none of the top ten psychology doctoral programs in the United States accepted even 3% of the applicants.
that is true but as someone who is a 4.0 student in psychology and always does the best in the class for me it is easy and very enjoyable.
While I’m not questioning ur intelligence (something you hav been very into letting everyone here know) im guessing u took an intro to pysch course and u think u can open your own private practice?
Many people major in psychology in undergrad simply b/c it tends to be shorter and easier than other majors. However, Psychology on a professional level is extremely technical, and is a real art.
bk613 – no i took 2 psychology courses and i really enjoyed them and thought they were a “piece of cake”.
MsPrincess- that’s because psychology classes tend to be a piece of cake. And bk613’s points stand- (1) you are an amateur at best, and you consider yourself a psychology expert (2) psych is one of the easiest and quickest majors, requiring approximately 33-36 credits.
I’ve also taken 2 psych classes- I’ve actually taken more than that, even though I’m a math major. I have also read several psychology-related books. Does that make me an expert in the field?
So u agree with me that u have no knowledge of the field?
technical – thats what i said. im very impressed that your perfect at math wish i was are you an actuary? (then your perfect at math – at least compared to others) where did you get your degree from? if it was from a high up school im even more impressed. pre calc was very difficult cant wait for calc 1 (exaggerating). i actually love calc and hated pre calc. is calc 2 and 3 similar to calc 1 or more to pre calc? i studied some calc bymyself because i just cant stand pre calc and love calc much more.
bk613 – how much harder can the psyc classes get? even all math majors think its a joke and even tho sometimes im good at math i still ace psychology and sometimes dont do well in math.
Who said I’m perfect at math? I certainly didn’t. I love math and I think I’m pretty good at it, but I’m by no means a math genius. I’m going for my master’s in math education right now, and hoping to continue to a PhD. No, I didn’t go for the prestige, I went for the practicality and the all-girl undergrad; therefore, I went to Touro Flatbush for my bachelor’s, and Touro for my master’s.
Calc 2 and 3 are really entities unto themselves, independent of Precalc or Calc 1. I guess they’re more similar to Calc 1. (I could be wrong, though, since I never had to take PreCalc.)
Psychology classes are very different than fields in psychology. Understanding human psychology doesn’t come from taking a few classes; it comes from a combination of a high EQ (which is much more important than IQ in the long run), natural insight into human nature, experience, and also intense study.
i barely study for psychology. touro does not have a good math program at all no real analysis which is for real math majors.
Im not sure how to measure the difficulty of a profession, but there is a reason why a doctoral program is 5-7 years.
Just because you are better at math than psychology doesn’t make mean that everyone finds its easier too.
MsPrincess: Psychology is easy and a lot of fun.
run that by me again?
bk613 – im the exact opposite better MUCH better at psychology than math and i think MOST people are that way.
Hashem is reading – exactly like how it sounds. psychology is fun as in interesting easy as in easy a easy papers easy tests.
From a Torah perspective, the role of the psychologist is to bring the patient to a state where they can be mekayem taryag mitzvos. This includes ivdu es Hashem be’simchah, the mitzva of kibbud av ve’em, taharas ha’mishpacha and the mitzva of limmud torah.
If one of these needs to be broken as a stop-gap measure, it needs to be fixed in the long run.
So the therapists job is not finished till he has tidied up after himself.
MsPrincess- there you go again; “I barely study for psychology.” And you never say you’re better than anyone else???
Psychology as a subject may be easy on paper, but it’s much more complex in real life. If you fail to understand that, then you fail to understand human psychology.
Touro has a math program that is geared towards actuarial science majors. It’s actually very good for that purpose- and oh, yes, there is analysis. The difference is that since I went for math ed, I could’ve used other classes more geared toward that, but they don’t have too many.
Saying psychology is easy and a lot of fun is like saying if I read Newton’s Principa Mathematica then I am qualified to work in a nuclear reactor.
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