Our Society And a Developing Crisis

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  • #630044

    Joseph
    Participant
    #630045

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    never crossed my mind that God couldn’t provide. but does He always? check out the streets of Israel. there’s your answer.

    and you didn’t really answer my question about nissim. it is 100% assur to rely on a nes in order to fulfill a mitzva. (with a few exceptions like the ner tamid and isha sota – if i remember correctly) but i believe the mitzva of pirya ve’rivya does not fall under this category. and don’t tell me all these people have 100% emuna and bitachon. i won’t buy it.

    #630046

    Bais Yaakov maydel
    Participant

    dw, i dont believe sem “brainwashes” people. it merely influences for the better. if someone doesnt want that, they see it as negative and call the system brainwashing. whats brainwashing about Torah? because as far as i know, that’s the only thing they teach in sem

    #630047

    Joseph
    Participant

    brooklyn, Its as clear as the sun that they do have bitachon. In this crazy day and age when birth control is forced down societies throat and living the good life is (lhavdil elef havdolos) the new G-d, anyone courageous enough not to use birth control is openly and inarguably demonstrating their full bitachon in Hakodosh Baruch Hu.

    #630048

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    100%??? no way.

    #630049

    Bais Yaakov maydel
    Participant

    yes way. just because its hard for others to understand (not talking about you specifically), doesnt mean its impossible

    #630050

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    all those people. i’ve met some of them. some you could believe it. and some i just have a hard time with this theory.

    #630051

    Joseph
    Participant

    brooklyn19: due to your limited understanding. The fault lies with you, not with the holy Yidden who are mekayim pru urvu to the fullest extent.

    #630052

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    whatever you say, Reb Joseph. i’m not convinced.

    #630053

    bored@work
    Participant

    Im with Joseph, its the truth just depends when you learn that…

    #630054

    intellegent
    Member

    I am disgusted by this whole discussion (disgusion) Brooklyn19, your ego will get in the way of your understanding. If someone is having difficulty, let them consult their rav. It is not up to decide if masses of people should stop having children or not. No one is really interested in any of your opinions and I know I’ve taken part in discussions that had no real tachlis but I think this one is somehow over the line.

    #630055

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Joseph, to be mekayem the mitzvah to the fullest extent, you need one boy and one girl. That’s it.

    I’m glad you think you know more than the Rabbonim in Lakewood, who are telling people there to ask about birth control, because it is an option – something that many people (you included) never thought was possible.

    Saying things like this just highlights your ignorance.

    #630056

    Joseph
    Participant

    Feif, putting your foolishness aside, please don’t invent sheker regarding the Rabbonim.

    #630057

    bored@work
    Participant

    Feif, yes the mitzvah d’oraisa is to have one boy and one girl, but everytime you do have another child it is d’rabanon which is also a nice thing to have if you are able to do it…

    #630058

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Joseph, I’m not. I have 3 brothers who went to Lakewood, and they told me it’s part of your chosson classes nowadays – the Rabbonim tell you it is an option, and you shouldn’t assume it’s assur – ask!

    Also, I happen to be related to one of the main Rabbonim in Lakewood who teach the halachos to chassanim. I verified it.

    #630059

    It is beautiful to see families with large number of kids- I dont care what you say about birth control. After the chorbon in Europe, we need to reproduce the gedolim that we lost….

    But, if a family is having hard financial trouble… talk to a Rav. STOP PASKENING IN THE CR!!! since i dont know who you are anyways, how could I know where you are in the spectrum and if I can trust your opinion?!?! it is one thing to debate hashkafos, but halacha is where it must stop already! Lets stick to how it used to be… hashkafa, random questions, riddles/jokes and news/current events.

    #630060

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Opinionatedbubby – I disagree with you. Its not only a matter of nickel and dimes – but people should be prepared for how hard it is (at least to some degree). I think the same is true of marriage. I got married before a bunch of a my friends and when they were ready to get married I told them that marriage is hard work and tried to prepare them for it. One of my friends laughed and said “Its only hard if you make it hard.” Boy was she in for it! She called me later to ask for lots of advice when she hit a rough patch. Is marriage worth it? Yes! But its good to know what challenges lay ahead so you can prepare for them. I am a fan of honesty – its important to understand what you are getting yourself into.

    Intellegent, there is a big difference between someone who has their children and someone who decides to bring more children into a situation that they already cannot afford. And yes, it does effect me – after all, they ask for my money to pay for food for these poor children. I think ultimately the choice is between each family and their rabbonim, but I still think its irresponsible.

    For those of you who have kids already, do you remember what its like to have a baby waking you up all the time? My son is 11 months old and still wakes up 2X at night. If I had another kid, I don’t know what I would do. Taking care of kids is hard work. So yes, you can have one after another after another…but the psychological health of the parents and other children in the family should be placed high on the list. There are also forms of birth control that require no contraception (such as Natural Family Planning) which just requires charting different changes in your body – I have no idea if this requires a heter or not, but I cannot imagine it really would.

    Also, there is another pitfall to having many kids – often, you don’t get to spend quality time with each one. You churn them out, and then the oldest children help raise the others. I’ve seen this many times and its always unfair to the older children. Its one thing for your kids to help out (and they should), its another to make them into parents at 9 years old.

    #630062

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Since this seems to have degraded into a discussion on birth control…

    There are Gedolim who allow it, there are Gedolim that do not.

    Those who say no one allows it disrespects those Gedolim who do allow it.

    As usual, ask your OWN LOR who knows YOUR situation. Be aware that it may be a halachicly valid option.

    Also don’t disrespect those who get a Psak that they may not use it.

    #630063

    Joseph
    Participant

    Bitochon Yidden, Bitochon.

    #630064

    oomis
    Participant

    “Also, there is another pitfall to having many kids – often, you don’t get to spend quality time with each one. You churn them out, and then the oldest children help raise the others. I’ve seen this many times and its always unfair to the older children. Its one thing for your kids to help out (and they should), its another to make them into parents at 9 years old. “

    This bears repeating in its entirety. There are several women in my neighborhood who have families upwards of 13-17 children. The moms are always pregnant (don’t even WANT to think about what that must feel like), and the older children are the ones who care for the little ones. I virtually NEVER see the moms with the kids, only older siblings taking care of the younger ones. You know what – the older sibs did not ask to become unpaid nannies, especially when their job is supposed to be to do well in school and learn how to be productive members of society. How much time can you really give a child who needs attention, when there are 8 or ten others in the family, also in need, especially when they are very close in age? I have kinehora five children by birth, as well as the two who married my children, and it is a huge juggling act, even when they are all adults. This one needs me to help proofread a paper, that one needs me to babysit, the next one, who does not drive, needs to be brought somewhere and picked up (car service is unreliable, and at night that is especially problematic), and so on. I would have loved to have more children, though Hashem took the decision out of my hands (VERY wisely, I might add), and I am happy with the ones I have, B”H.

    #630065

    feivel
    Participant

    “the oldest children help raise the others. I’ve seen this many times and its always unfair to the older children”

    ive seen it many times as well

    how beautiful it is.

    how healthy it is.

    how it strengthens the “parents at 9 years old” to be strong caring sensitive parents of their own children.

    you might like to read “all for the boss”

    #630066

    anon for this
    Participant

    SJS,

    From what I understand about natural family planning as a contraceptive method, practically speaking it isn’t compatible with halacha.

    #630067

    Bais Yaakov maydel
    Participant

    “how it strengthens the ‘parents at 9 years old’ to be strong caring sensitive parents of their own children.”

    these children can grow up this way, or they can think, what a burden. why would i ever wanna have so many kids?

    #630068

    What about children being children? by not being carefree and on a n important part of life- being carefree. by forcing them to grow up early- it can be damaging to their growth… Responsibility is good, but forcing them to be adults at 9,10 or 11 years old is crazy and abusive. There is a balance that must be kept and if one chooses to have many kids, they should be able to take care of them or afford babysitters. Why should the children be mothers to their siblings? Why should Bais Yaakov girls be free labor (as chessed hours) to members of the community who cannot take care of their children? I understand when their is a new birth or a crises in the family to use BY students for chessed. These chessed hours can be used to help people who did not choose to be in their situation- illness, death, disabilities, divorces or the many crises that unfortunately plague our communities.

    #630070

    oomis
    Participant

    “the oldest children help raise the others. I’ve seen this many times and its always unfair to the older children”

    ive seen it many times as well

    how beautiful it is.

    how healthy it is.

    how it strengthens the “parents at 9 years old” to be strong caring sensitive parents of their own children.

    you might like to read “all for the boss”

    I haven’t read this book, so I speak from ignorance, probably, but it is still just the author’s opinion (is the author by any chance a man???). There is nothing beautiful about turning a 9 year old into a slave. Now, it is one thing to ask a child (and this is a CHILD, not a responsible adult, for heaven’s sake), to watch a younger sib for a short while as the mom is cooking, but that is NOT what is happening. The mothers are having baby after baby, and they are NOT taking responsibility for those babies. HOw could they, they are exhausted from being pregnant every year and recuperating from childbirth. Many suffer PPD after they give birth. It is borderline child abuse, to expect the children who are youngsters themselves, to be responsible for a live creature whom they should not have to worry about for at least another 10 years or so. And it is neither beautiful nor healthy for anyone in that family, least of all the baby, who is being taken care of by another baby. Give the kids some responsibilities, but don’t turn them into the parents.

    #630071

    mazal77
    Participant

    All for the Boss was a wonderful book written by Reb. Ruchoma Shain, about her beloved father, Rav Yaakov Yosef Herman. She writes about her childhood growing up in the lower East Side. I highly recommend reading this book. It is a classic in English Judiaca and a must read for every jew.

    #630072

    Joseph
    Participant

    oomis1105

    Read “All for the Boss”

    You will have all your questions answered.

    And you will never regret reading it. I guarantee that.

    #630073

    mazal77
    Participant

    This book is highly inspiring. Many people, frum and non-frum. even non-jews have read this book and were inspired. It is well written and written from the heart. Oomis, try to get your hands on this book. Her father, came to America, as a child, his family sent him from the old country by himself to stay with realitives. When demanded he pay rent, he resolved to be on his own. This was at the time where you either had to work or shabbos or find a new job every week. He had complete faith in Hashem. He was the father-in-law of one of our current gedolei Hador, Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, Shil’ta, may he be well.

    #630074

    I read the book and enjoyed it. But I hate to break the news to you..most parents today are not Reb Shain. They do not know where the balance is and do cross it. my questions are not answered since i did read this book!

    #630075

    oomis
    Participant

    I’ll try to read it, though I am imagining it will not seriously change my mind about certain issues, though I am sure it is very inspirational. Given the context of the times about which she writes, it sounds like it is really not so relevant to today’s reality, as much as I am certain there is much wisdom contained in her work.

    #630076

    The Big One
    Participant

    I am truly disgusted by the comment above complaining that its hard to have more than x number of kids. I understand it limits how many movies you can go out to, but fech. and to refer to the holy mitzvah of child bearing as “churn them out” and mocking our hold Jewish women for being “the moms are always pregnant every year, don’t even WANT to think about what that must feel like” is disgusting and unforgivable. THESE ARE OUT HOLY WOMEN IN KLAL YISROEL, BRINGING UP OUR FUTURE.

    birth control borders on murder. the blood of the unborn cries out. all their future generations that were stopped cold by a would be parent who thought they are smarter than G-d.

    the guy above who said they teach about birth control in the choson shmooze needs a few good petch for peddling such dangerous shtus. i know half a dozen chohsove kollel yungermans who give choson shmooze in lakewood and elsewhere and maybe a hundred guys who went to choson shmooze. they encourage chasanim to have bonim u’bonos, never chas v’shalom anything bordering on birth control.

    #630077

    Will Hill
    Participant

    The next thing down this slippery slope, is you will have people come here arguing in support of parental-rights to euthanize unwanted offspring, utilizing all the same pathetic arguments made by a few above — you can pay more attention to the remaining children, you can’t afford as many children as you have, it was too hard with sooo many children, etc.

    This is the road this is leading to fellows.

    #630078

    intellegent
    Member

    all for the boss is a great book. Let’s talk about it instead of this horrible discussion that was going on till now. I am not taking sides. Some opinions are right and some are wrong. But they are all wrong in being expressed on this site. If you are really bothered by a situation speak to someone who you think can really do something about it. otherwise just keep it INSIDE.

    #630079

    squeak
    Participant

    havesomeseichel

    Member

    What about children being children? by not being carefree and on a n important part of life- being carefree. by forcing them to grow up early- it can be damaging to their growth… Responsibility is good, but forcing them to be adults at 9,10 or 11 years old is crazy and abusive.

    On a whole, children nowadays have too much free time on their hands. This is the number one cause of kids at risk (though of course we have seen countless people point to various micro-causes, I am stating the macro-cause, and I am sure of it). Some of us remember, while others can read about it in books (fiction and nonfiction), that not too long ago and going back to the beginning of time!!! children were EXPECTED to be productive even in their childhood years. Yes, we were children too, and were granted time to play, but we were always on call to perform chores – whether it was milking the cows, filling the water barrels, taking care of siblings (this was usually left to the mother, though), helping out in the store, splitting firewood, etc, etc. (I’m not saying that I did any of those things, but I had similar responsibilities)

    In fact, the main reason for summer vacation from school is because children were needed at home to help with the harvest (also because of lack of air-conditioning). So don’t start with this garbage about how kids should be carefree and not given any responsibilities.

    Now, there is a fine line that must not be crossed, and that is that we cannot expect too much from our children, or give them too many responsibilities. But in this day and age, we are so far to the opposite extreme that it is wild to even think that this line will be crossed. If a child has the time to sit in front of a television show every day, and play on the Xbox with his friends for hours at a time, have no fear that the child is being “forced to grow up too fast”. Many children in fact never grow up and continue playing on their Xbox into middle age, shunning responsibility.

    If a 9, 10, or 11 year old knows that when he or she comes home from school he or she will have to watch the little kids for an hour before doing homework, what is wrong with that? That’s not forcing them to be adults, that’s barely asking anything! Point to a kid who has to do that AND give the kids baths, AND put them to sleep, AND make supper for the family AND make lunches for everyone to take the next morning AND help all the kids get dressed and I will agree that the child is being abused. But having a DEFINED responsibility to younger siblings is NOT abuse and is one of many VERY GOOD ways to give a child responsibilies (if he or she can handle it physically).

    I am truly amazed at how much free time youngsters have and how strongly they feel that they are entitled to it. We live in a spoiled age B”H, but that does not mean that we should become lazy and unproductive.

    So, after that long megilla, I hope that I have managed to at least divert the conversation back to something that fits the title of “Society and a Developing Crisis”.

    #630081

    Feif Un
    Participant

    The Big One: I deserve a petch for peddling it? Ask R’ Felder in Lakewood if birth control can be allowed. Ask R’ Shachar, who gives chosson classes to hundreds if not thousands of boys. See what they say.

    My brother learned all the halachos from R’ Shachar when he was a chosson, and he told me that he was told birth control can be allowed, you just have to ask your Rav!

    Instead of attacking me when you don’t know anything, why not ask a Rav and find out?

    As for birth control bordering on murder, that’s just plain nonsense. Again, ask your Rav, and see what he says. Writing the way you do makes you look ignorant.

    #630082

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    The Big One – are you a man? Do you have any idea how hard it is to be pregnant? I was vomitting for the first 30 weeks of my pregnancy. So yes, I understand questioning how it must feel to be pregnant all the time. Post Partum Depression is really high nowadays – many women go untreated. Getting pregnant again is even worse for PPD because you cannot take drugs to help you. Unfortunately, most people do not take PPD seriously.

    birth control borders on murder. the blood of the unborn cries out. all their future generations that were stopped cold by a would be parent who thought they are smarter than G-d.

    Do you think you are smarter than the many rabbonim who allow birth control? (obviously the rabbonim decide on the situation) Doesnt the fetus not become a “halachic human” until 30 days? (or is it 40?) So how would birth control be considered bordering on murder? Unless you consider every month that a women doesnt get pregnant as if she (and her body) killed a life?

    Will hill, there is a drastic difference between birth control and abortion. Birth control prevents a possible life, abortion KILLS a life. There are even situations where an abortion is allowed/required according to halacha. The slippery slope argument is very dangerous because I could make that argument with almost everything that is allowed by halacha. There is a reason we have our rabbonim who pasken for us rather than go by your logic.

    If a 9, 10, or 11 year old knows that when he or she comes home from school he or she will have to watch the little kids for an hour before doing homework, what is wrong with that? That’s not forcing them to be adults, that’s barely asking anything! Point to a kid who has to do that AND give the kids baths, AND put them to sleep, AND make supper for the family AND make lunches for everyone to take the next morning AND help all the kids get dressed and I will agree that the child is being abused. But having a DEFINED responsibility to younger siblings is NOT abuse and is one of many VERY GOOD ways to give a child responsibilies (if he or she can handle it physically).

    Squeak, I know plenty of families where the latter is the norm. There is a big difference between helping out, and shouldering major responsibility. My cousin’s daughter is allowed to go away once a year for shabbos because her mother just cannot spare her help. She is the oldest of 10 (followed by 8 boys and then a girl) and has major responsibility. My step-neice is the oldest of 9 and has a ton of responsibility. She is in seminary this year and told me she is never going back home (to live) because of the burden she has to bear. My cousin was barely allowed to come over and play (or vice versa) because she was watching her siblings. From a young age, she also helped her parents run their store from their house.

    #630084

    squeak
    Participant

    SJS, I don’t doubt that you may know a case (or more than one) where the parents heaped responsibility onto a child to the point where it became abusive. But I would suggest that this is a rare exception. I hope that you won’t deny that. As I said, there is a fine line and it is not often that it is crossed these days, but no one should be allowed to cross it. I’d also add that in a case where it appears that the line has been crossed a professional should be consulted (or a competent Rov) to determine if the situation is as serious as it appears. Most of the time people make judgements by comparison rather than factual analysis.

    #630085

    feivel
    Participant

    “(is the author by any chance a man???)”

    no its a woman, Ruchoma Shain

    who understands the lifestyle of a family devoted to Hashem (the “Boss”)

    #630086

    mazal77
    Participant

    I think responbilty for children is good for them. In your Step-niece’s case, it is very excessive and a Rov should be consulted. I think some parents don’t realize what they are doing. No matter how many children you have, they need to be treated properly. I try to have some time with each child alone. Whether going to the store together, or ice cream, or a walk. Yes, it is hard to make the time, but you have to have your priorties.

    #630087

    oomis
    Participant

    “In fact, the main reason for summer vacation from school is because children were needed at home to help with the harvest (also because of lack of air-conditioning). So don’t start with this garbage about how kids should be carefree and not given any responsibilities.”

    Big One, you are a little strident soudning, and you are also speaking in extremes. Children no longer help with harvesting, and those who did, did not live the type of life that our frum kids do. No one says kids should not have responsibilities at home. But it is NOT their job to be slaves or become parents at age 9 or 10 (and let’s get real, in these homes it is usually the DAUGHTERS who are so designated). If those Holy Women in Klal Yisroel want to keep having children, it behooves them to take care of them. By the time many of the oldest female siblings grow up, they are burnt out. For you to think otherwise, much less criticize people who have that opinion, and for you to essentially equate birth control with murder, shows a singular lack of sensitivity to what pregnancy and motherhood are. Are you a man or woman? I honestly cannot believe that you could be a woman. Or else, you are very young, because only a young, extremely idealistic and inexperienced person could say what you said, in the loshon that you used. And if you are not a young person, then your words show a lack of tact, and you should know better.

    #630088

    Bogen
    Participant

    The Big one and Will Hill are right. Someone using birth control is depriving these children and all their future generations from life.

    #630089

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    So to those who are vehemently against birth control – do you think you know more than the rabbonim? When they say its ok, are they wrong?

    Squeak and Mazal – unfortunately, with the people I know in large families, the oldest kids get huge responsibility well above what they should have. The only case where its not, is my friend whos family is really rich and can afford all the help they need. I don’t know if others know people who just help out, but I know too many kids who are overworked.

    Anon, do you know why NFP is against halacha? Just curious.

    #630090

    anonymisss
    Participant

    Bogen- I wouldn’t feel comfortable making such a statement. There are many different reasons people might be using birth control and most likely it is being done with the consent of their rabbi.

    #630091

    kiruvwife
    Member

    Quite fascinating how the “developing crisis” went from Yissochar/Zevulun -kollel life to using birth control. (although i do see how it evolved)

    I assume most people posting here have a Rov they consult. Leave it up to your Rov to decide these things, not anonymous posters.

    #630092

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

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    ???????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??, ??? ?? ???

    ????? ??”? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????

    ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??”?, ?? ????? ?????,

    ????? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???

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    Igros Moshe Even Haezer Chelek Daled Siman Ayin Daled

    If anyone else has some facts (not speculation or fearmongering) please point them out.

    As Rav Moshe says, always ask your rav.

    #630093

    intellegent
    Member

    SJSinNYC,

    not sure what anon was referring to, but I would imagine that even if you do charts etc. there are certain times that you can’t prevent it. Know what I mean?

    #630094

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joseph:

    There is also the Mitzva of “Lo theu Beriah lasheves Yitzra”, which transends Peru U’rivu and in some cases is even more Chamur.

    I once heard a story from a Rebbe of mine on how parents of baalei teshuva do not understand how they can have so many children. The daughter promptly lined up all of her many children and asked the non-frum mother which one she thinks should not have been born!

    Just try to see both sides of the coin. Lkol Zman Ves Lkol Chefetz Tachas HaShamoim,

    especially in light of the gedolim saying it is muttar in some cases.

    I direct this at you, since the others who “argue” have applied to themselves the statement of Rebbi Yehudah in Gemorah Keddushin 52b, Tannu Rabanan, third wide line.

    #630095

    It is a vicious cycle- have many kids so the oldest daughter raises the youngest. She becomes burnt out so by the time she has her own children, she needs the help of her oldest….and around and around we go… but I am not supporting one thing or another. Just ask a rav, talk to your spouse, and KNOW YOURSELF and your limits!

    #630097

    Zalman
    Participant

    Regarding birth control for non-medical (e.g. financial or other) reasons…

    The Shulchan Aruch (Even Haezer 76, 6), Rambam (Ishus 15, 1), Chazon Ish, Maharam Schick, etc clearly states it is assur for a married couple to postpone the mitzva of pirya vrivya.

    The Chazon Ish amongst others states postponing the fulfilling of this mitzvah is Bittul Hamitzvah even if one later fulfils the mitzvah.

    In Igros Moshe Even Haezer vol 1 beggining of no. 64, Reb Moshe states that “spacing” children is completely assur.

    The Gemora in Yevomos 62b says that even after fulfilling pirya vrivya (i.e. one boy and one girl) one must continue to have additional children. This is based on Koheles 11:6 vloerev al tanach yodecha. In the morning you shall plant your seed, and in the evening you shall continue to do so.

    The Birkei Yosef in Even Haezer chap. 1 writes you cannot decide to discontinue having children.

    And today the wife has the same obligation as the husband of pirya vrivya (Lev Avraham #99 from the Chasam Sofer), since today the husband can only have one wife, whereas previously the husband could have multiple so if one wife wasn’t having children the husband could fulfil his obligation with other wives. The Avnei Nezer says this fact was true even before Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom.

    #630098

    Zalman
    Participant

    Regarding BC for non-medical (e.g. financial or other) reasons…

    The Shulchan Aruch (Even Haezer 76, 6), Rambam (Ishus 15, 1), Chazon Ish, Maharam Schick, etc clearly states it is assur for a married couple to postpone the mitzva of pirya vrivya.

    The Chazon Ish amongst others states postponing the fulfilling of this mitzvah is Bittul Hamitzvah even if one later fulfils the mitzvah.

    In Igros Moshe Even Haezer vol 1 beggining of no. 64, Reb Moshe states that “spacing” children is completely assur.

    The Gemora in Yevomos 62b says that even after fulfilling pirya vrivya (i.e. one boy and one girl) one must continue to have additional children. This is based on Koheles 11:6 vloerev al tanach yodecha. In the morning you shall plant your seed, and in the evening you shall continue to do so.

    The Birkei Yosef in Even Haezer chap. 1 writes you cannot decide to discontinue having children.

    And today the wife has the same obligation as the husband of pirya vrivya (Lev Avraham #99 from the Chasam Sofer), since today the husband can only have one wife, whereas previously the husband could have multiple so if one wife wasn’t having children the husband could fulfil his obligation with other wives. The Avnei Nezer says this fact was true even before Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom.

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