Peace Plan

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  • #1607346

    Avi K
    Participant

    00646, I did not write that it will be done only that it should be done. However, those countries are going to have to get immigrants from some place.

    DY, we have already gone through the non-starter of the shaloshet hashevuot several times. Not to mention the fact that there are two mashiachs and according to Rav Kook Mashiach ben Yosef as already arrived.

    #1607347

    000646
    Participant

    NevilleChaimBerlin,

    The Palistinians in the West Bank and Gaza are there because that’s where they lived when Israel seized control of the area. They aren’t there because they are “the crazies that nobody wants”. How is forcing them to move to another country (assuming Jordan would even take them) fair?

    You seem to be suggesting that Israel should just kill them all. I think most people would agree this is not a moral solution.

    #1607349

    Doing my best
    Participant

    If we do a one or even two state solution, the population of the land mass of Israel will double, who’s paying the trillions of dollars for brand new cities and infrastructure?

    And also if you think Israel should kill all Palestinians the “goyish college liberal” is probably right that you’re evil. I don’t believe even 75% of Palestinians are all into terrorism or there would have been 4 million at the Friday protests, not just a couple thousand.

    #1607365

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Avi, I figure you’d go for the first option.

    I don’t want to derail the thread, but just because there’s no room in your head for a different opinion, doesn’t mean it’s a non starter.

    #1607341

    Joseph
    Participant

    New York Times, April 4, 1966

    New York Times, 1966

    #1607423

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    000646 me and avik have already answered your questions and questioned your conclusions and facts. Repeating the same thing again doesn’t warrant a new response. The only new thing I will reiterate is that all the Arabs together – Israeli Arabs, gaza and West Bank – amount to 5.8 million (at most. They do tend to inflate their numbers for the sake of foreign aid etc so not necessarily true,) Jews number over 6.5 million. Those are the numbers as you say whether you like it or not.

    And we wouldn’t have all of them living in Israel according to to the plan mentioned. And yes it is perfectly fine to expel people who would like to lynch you (which isn’t all but a significant portion). They can go live in other like minded violent Arab countries.

    #1607431

    000646
    Participant

    AviK,

    So yes in Theory it would solve the problem if those countries gave them citizenship. It’s not happening though and we all know this. It seems like you know it as well from your last post. Besides Jews demanding that the Palistinians move to another country would be like Native Americans coming into crown heights and demanding that all the lubvitchers move back to Russia. It’s not fair, right or practical.

    ChabadShlucha,

    There are about 4% who identify as “others” you’d have about 6.2 million non Jews vs 6.5 Jews. In a democracy a few hundred thousand more Jews is not going to keep the countries Jewish character. More people then that don’t vote. You’d end up with a Palistinian prime minister the first election after making them all citizens. There is a reason why Israel never offered them citizenship, it was never ever on the table for them, and it never will be, unless Israel gives up on the idea of being a Jewish state.

    #1607432

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, there has already been a bat kol. The only deniers are the NK and the BDS.

    #1607434

    000646
    Participant

    ChabadShlucha,

    You still haven’t addressed my points:

    1.) How is it fair to maintain military control over millions of people and not give them a say in the government or their own state. Israel never has and never will offer them citizenship because the Jewish character of the state would be lost if they did that.

    2.) No other country will take them. It would be nice if Canad or rich Western European countries would but they won’t and have never given any indication that they will.

    3.) Why should any other country take them, and why should they be compelled to go to another country? They lived where they are now before the modern state of Israel came onto the scene. Should Native Americans be able to come into crown heights and force all Lubavitchers to move back to Russia (or even Israel for that matter). It would seem that Native Americans have just as strong a claim to crown heights as Jews do to the West Bank and Gaza.

    #1607453

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    ” I don’t believe even 75% of Palestinians are all into terrorism”

    You’re right, 75 is not correct. According to polls over 90% of them support the terrorism. The moderate ones went to Jordan. And, by the way, I’m using the word “moderate” lightly here. They’re still mostly probably Antisemites.

    You terrorist-lovers need to get 1 thing straight: people generally tolerate varying shittos here (even though we argue) from the religious-right, 3-oath types who are b’shittah against the medina to the Avi K types who assign religious significance to it. But, if you’re going to come in with full-fledged political support for those who want to exterminate the Jews simply for left-wing Antisemitic reasons, you should face nothing but contempt here. I am proud to make you feel unwelcome.

    #1607455

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    My mistake, I found the source of the poll I referred to in my last post in the number is actually 87%, not over 90.

    Nonetheless, if 87% of them support murdering Jews, why would you want to reward them?

    Also, I should point out, the Arab-Israeli conflict is probably the only conflict in history where self-defense is labeled as “immoral.” You guys are actually explicitly saying that Israel should not be able to fight back against the terrorists and that they only thing they should be able to do is give them a state so that they can build a huge Nazi-style army.

    #1607488

    philosopher
    Participant

    000646, go back to where you came from, you Jew hater!

    You ask how is it fair that the Fakestinians dont have their own military power and goverment?! They need military power to kill more Jews?! Are you insane?!

    You are a disgusting Jew hater! They are out to kill us! Whatever land the liberal crazies in Israel has been turned into hotbeds of terrorism! They can’t govern decently the “government” they already have! Are you going to blame Israel too for the subhuman government they have?

    And stop with your stupidity that Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank can’t be under Israel’s control because THEY WERE ALREADY under Israel’s control. The problem is that these violent people were not controlled well enough.

    Now go back into your hole, go visit the Jew hating, Fakestinian issue supporting forums ( they don’t care about the Fakestinians only the fact that it’s an anti-Jew platform to spewing hatred and lies) and be busy how these “poor Falestinians” don’t have military power and a state ( so that they can shoot more rockets at Jews and stockpile more weapons…)

    #1607479

    000646
    Participant

    NevilleChaimBerlin,

    I may be mistaken but it seems to me that you are advocating killing them all out, or keeping them stateless under Israeli military control indefinitely. There is no place for them to go (in spite of the wishes of people like Avik & CS no other country will take them) and your definitely not advocating making them full citizens of Israel (something that Israel has never put on the table in either case).
    Advocating the killing of 4 million people, men, women and children is thankfully an extreme minority position even among the most right wing religious Zionists. Its a hard position to defend from a moral perspective. I don’t think one really needs to say much to see why this is so.

    Keeping them stateless under military control is just not possible forever (besides for being morally wrong and not fair, shouldn’t the people who live in a land have a say as to how they are governed?)

    So without getting all hyperbolic and accusing anyone of antisemitism can you either defend one of these positions as moral and fair or explain another option that I am not seeing.

    #1607514

    000646
    Participant

    Philospher,

    Your really aren’t addressing any of points. Israel seized control through military force of the land in which the Palestinians live. They won’t make them citizens of Israel and there are no other countries that will take them. The Palestinians are very upset about this because they have no say in the Government or control over the land in which they lived and are now stuck living in. These are facts. Facts cannot be antisemitic.

    #1607517

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    They aren’t innocent people. They are all part of a massive terrorist enterprise and there is nothing immoral about defense by force. It doesn’t matter if the number of enemy combatants is 4 million or 100 million, Israel has the right to take out anyone coming at them. So, I don’t see why you think repeating that number over and over is going to help your case.

    P.S. I’m not a religious Zionist. As you would know if you hadn’t just created an account here for your university newspaper piece, I generally fall on the anti-Zionist, chareidi side of the fence religiously. I argue with Avi all the time on the CR. This might be hard for you to grasp as a goy, but those of us with that shittah aren’t opposed to the medina because we love Hamas. We still hate anyone who wants to kill the Jewish people as any real Jew should.

    War is never pretty. Do you think WWII would have ended without the allies bombing the daylights out of Berlin? And, by the way, the civilian casualties there were probably ACTUALLY innocent, unlike your beloved Muslims.

    #1607538

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    000646 When they stop trying to kill us maybe we can treat them like human beings.

    #1607604

    000646
    Participant

    NevilleChamberlin,

    Ok. So your argument is that Israel should kill all the Palistinians in the lands it seized control over in 1967, because they are all part of “a massive terrorist enterprise”. The problem with that argument is that it simply isn’t true, there are millions of women and children who would have no bone to pick with anyone who wasn’t trying to control the land in which they live against their will. Besides they were living there BEFORE the IDF took control of the land. They want their own country or to have a say in the government that is controlling where they live. How is this unreasonable of them?

    I’m just saying that I think the only moral and practical solution here is to give them their own state and be done with the whole thing.

    P.S. I’m a Jew from Lakewood and have been a member here for years.

    #1607609

    philosopher
    Participant

    000646, Jew hater, you are repeating your garbage continously. The Arab Muslims had their chance of self-government when Palestine was devided in two, for Jews and Arab Muslims. But the Muslims ATTACKED the Jews and the Jews won the war. That is why Jews ended up governing these lands. And the Fakestinians still continuously attack Jews and are engaged in violence and the “struggle” to gain back ALL of Palestine and throw Jews into the sea. We don’t care about the “rights” of such a violent people , where land given to them turns into terrorist bases so they can continue their goal in killing Jews. But you don’t care about Jewish lives, all you care about is that the Fakestinians have a military. That makes you a Jew hater.

    And these Fakestinians have a “government” that they voted in, corrupt, violent, terrorist officials. So stop being busy about them not having a government, they have the kind of government they voted for.

    And you are ignoring the FACT that the Bedoiuns, Christians, Druze, Muslims and other non-Jewish minorities living in Israel have full citizenship and if the entire Arab Muslim population would be peaceful, those Arabs living Gaza and the West Bank under Israeli so-called “occupation” would be granted Israeli citizenship which you claim they hadn’t had. What is the problem now? They are under the PLO and Hamas governments and their responsibility now, not Israel’s. So stop harping on the citizenship and government issue. And the PLO is armed, as well as Hamas. So exactly what is your point of them “not having an army”? Do they need to defend themselves against Jordan, Lebanon or Egypt? No, it’s just that you wish they had more leverage to fight the Israelis so that they can fulfill their dreams of throwing Jews into the sea. Disgusting, filthy, Jew hater. You people chatter and plan and wish for our people’s destruction but God is greater and we will always be around.

    #1607621

    000646
    Participant

    Philospher,

    Lol. I’m a Jew from Lakewood. What are you even talking about?? Stop with the dramatic grandstanding and just make your points.

    I never said anything about not having an army. They have no control over the land in which they live, and no say in the government that controls the lands in which they live. They want a state or to be citizens of the state that is controlling the land in which they live, which is Israel. Now of course if they were to become citizens of Israel they would vote and it would no longer be a Jewish state. You can’t have a democratic state also be a Jewish one unless Jews make up an overwhelming majority. So Israel will never make them equal citizens and it never gave them the option.

    These are facts, not opinions. They can’t be Antisemetic.

    #1607622

    Avi K
    Participant

    000646 (BTW, what is the meaning of that number?), FYI the ENTIRE Ottoman province of Palestine was given to the British ym”s by the League of Nations to establish a Jewish state. They partially reneged by creating Transjordan (now Jordan) in 1922 in order to reward Abdullah I for services rendered in WW1. They then further reneged by severely limiting Jewish immigration while allowing unlimited Arab immigration. Thus Jordan is Palestine. Judea and Samaria should be part of Israel. Read the Faisal-Weizmann agreement and the Levy report.

    BTW, the Jordan Times, which is mostly owned by the government Social Security fund, recently published a pro-Trump article by veteran former diplomat Walid M. Sadi . Look for a plan for Jordanian citizenship to be restored to the Arabs and some sort of joint administration.

    #1607625

    000646
    Participant

    AviK,

    646 is the gematria of my first and last name.

    The point is that the Palistinians living in the lands now controlled by the Israeli military don’t have a say and haven’t been given one. The Palistinians and Jews who were living there are really the only parties whos wants matter here. The British and any other country had the least rights of anyone to do anything with the land. They should never have been there in the first place. From the perspective of a Palistinian living in IDF controlled lands the British or LON giving the land to Israel would be like your neighbor giving your house to his cousin.

    Also all these plans don’t explain why a Palistinian who has lived his whole life and whos family very likely lived in what is now Israel for generations would want to move anywhere. And why should any other country want to take them?

    Its also just practically not realistic to expect any other country to take them in, it’s just not going to happen; and in the meanwhile the situation gets worse and worse as you have more and more people who are put in a situation where they are stateless and miserable and see the military force that is controlling their land against their will as a mortal enemy.

    #1607635

    philosopher
    Participant

    000646, you think Jews can’t be Jew haters? There were enough Jew haters , meshumadim who caused many tzuras for our people, and kapos and leftist liberals who always stuck up for our enemies. Even those in full Chassidish levush, the NK’s are Jew haters. If you care about those who want to destroy us and you don’t care about the the lives and safety of Jews then you are Jew hater, period.

    Yes you DID say that they don’t have their own military. So they have a semi-military with their weapons aimed at Israel. They have their own governments, Hamas and PLO, they are not under Israeli control so what exactly do you want now?!
    What exactly are you blaming Israel for now?

    If you are talking about Israeli Arabs, then learn some history and you will see many, many regions all over the world, don’t have the same government today as they had in the previous century. That doesn’t mean citizens can be terrorists and kill others because they want a government from the previous century . And btw, in the case of the Fakestinians, was the Ottomans or the British, they NEVER had their own government so they can’t even demand to get their “independence” back.

    Now, just cause you are a Jew does not mean you are not a traitor to our people and that you are not a Jew hater. You want our enemies to have a military, which YOU DID write that earlier. Don’t you care that these are the people that continously say they want to wipe out the Jews? If you were not a Jew hater you wouldn’t be busy writing so many posts in favor of the “poor, opressed Fakestinians” who the majority of them are animals on two feet, full of violence and hate against Jews.

    #1607646

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Over a year ago, we heard from the Trumpkopf that his middle east team (lead by his son-in-law and real estate lawyer) would be putting forward his secret middle east peace plan “soon”. Sadly, every action he has taken has set back the likelihood of any plan being adopted in the foreseeable future. But who cares, like everything else Trump, don’t believe what you see or hear him say. Don’t trust your lying eyes…

    #1607637

    philosopher
    Participant

    000646, you don’t even sound like someone with an anti-Zionist shittah. Anti-Zionists are focused on why Jews can’t have their own government and they unrealistically pedal the plan of goyim being the government of Palestine. As if Jews didn’t suffer enough from the Europeans and Muslims, they should now govern Israel. But that is basically what anti-Zonists are busy with.

    But you are busy caring for the “plight” of the Fakestinians. You care about these “poor people” and you don’t give a damn hoot about the terror they are committing and the fact that they say outright that they want to kill Jews .

    #1607651

    000646
    Participant

    Philospher,

    The Palistinians are absolutely under Israeli military control. Literally nobody denies this. All I’m saying is that keeping millions of people under military control against their will is not practical and not right. The people who live in a land should have a say in who controls them and should have the right to self determination. I have never said anything about them having a military.

    You give the impression of have never read the arguments against any of the positions your taking here.

    #1607656

    000646
    Participant

    Philospher,

    You also seem to not understand that the Palistinians in the West Bank and Gaza are NOT citizens of Israel like the Israeli Arabs and were never given the option of being Israeli citizens. They are under Israeli military control without any of the benefits of Israeli citizenship, any representation in the government, and they also can’t travel freely in and out the areas where they live. Again these are just facts. Nobody denies this.

    You really should take the time to read arguments of those who disagree with you sometimes.

    #1607664

    Avi K
    Participant

    000646 (so why the triple zero – does that signify the value of your comments?), there has never been a country called “Palestine”. It is the name given to EY by the Romans in a futile attempt to erase our ownership). In fact, when Mark Twain visited here the land was almost empty, as he describes in The Innocents Abroad. The ancestors of the Arabs who are squatting on our land came when Zionist settlement opened up economic opportunities. They are a fake people.

    Dor, maybe the Trump team realizes that there is no practical solution being that the Arabs and Europeans see it in their interest to prolong the status quo. Have you ever wondered why Abbas does not declare state nor soes Hamas? They prefer their present kleptocracies.

    #1607666

    A56
    Participant

    The only solution to this and all problems is for Moshiach to come.

    #1607667

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    ‘@000646 Did you read the first page of this thread?
    I clearly said I would have no issue living in a dual state co-run by palestinians and Jews that protects both nations. The only problem is most palestinians want this entire country, to themselves. They do not want any Jews running the country, perhaps they’d allow a couple thousand to live here and who knows how those would be treated and if their government would protect them.

    Our loyalties first lay in our own nation and country before we can think about helping others. A country needs to first protect it’s own citizens.

    #1607668

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    If you are truly interested in what REAL palestinians think and if they’d be willing to co-run a state, etc. You should look up: corey gil shuster. He interviews real people off the street, palestinians from Israel, Gaza, and Israelis and asks them what they think.

    He once asked palestinians what they would do with female israeli prisoners of war, people that would get stuck in their territory in a theoretical war, and most said that they would take them as a wife and other said they would abuse them too.

    #1607710

    Avi K
    Participant

    Shopping, what is the difference between the two groups?

    #1607723

    000646
    Participant

    AviK,

    The only thing that matters is that they were living there when the IDF took control. I’m not saying they have more rights then the Jews living there. I’m saying that one group of people keeping another under military control without giving them a state or equal rights is immoral and not sustainable.

    Philospher,

    I’m not against the idea of a Jewish state. I just think the status quo is not sustainable and the only fair solution that is practical is to give them their own state.

    Shopping613,

    Being ok living in a non Jewish state in the region where everyone is equal is not an option for the Israeli government. The entire point of the Zionist enterprise is to have a JEWISH state. Not just a democracy in the Middle East.

    Finally I think my analogy to Native Americans (I’m comparing the Jews to the Native Americans) is perfectly sound. I’ll repeat it here for clarity: Imagine that a bunch of Native Americans put together a military and took back New York. Would it be fair for them to drive those living in New York out? Or keep all the people not of Native American descent under military control with no say in the Government?

    #1607725

    philosopher
    Participant

    000646, it is completely false that the Fakestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are under Israeli control. That is a lie. The Fakestinians are prohibited from entering Israel without permits, they are prohibited from tunneling and trying to force their way over the border like they are doing now, but they are absolutely not under direct Israeli control. The Israelis TRY to control Hamas from getting weapons ( it is helping only to a certain extent) and control what goes in and out of Israel. They cannot control what happens in Gaza or the West Bank. It is Hamas and the PLO who control Gaza and the West Bank.

    Your concern over the plight of the plight of the “poor Fakestinians” make you lack reading comprehension. I wrote that if the they would be a peaceful people they would be given Israeli citizenship. It is the Fakestinians who rejected Israeli governship and therefore they did not get citizenship.

    It is mind boggling that you over and over again repeat the same arguments in support of a people who continue to express their wish to kill Jews.

    #1607729

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Two flaws in your analogy:

    1) Hashem didn’t grant New York to the Native Americans. He did grant Eretz Yisroel to the Jewish people.

    2) The Native Americans aren’t currently running New York. The Jews are currently running Eretz Yisroel.

    Furthermore, even if the moral thing to do would be to give the Palestinians a state, it’s not practical. It would be suicidal. We’re dealing with a people which educates their children to hate and kill Jews.

    #1607734

    Avi K
    Participant

    000646,

    1. Given the fact that the other parties will not agree to the best all around solution – paying them to emigrate t countries that need immigrants, the present situation is the best (and BTW, Arabs who have clean records work in Israeli enterprises in Judea and Samaria at much more than they can dream of getting in the רשעות הפלסטינאית.

    2. The status quo has been sustained for over 51 years.

    #1607763

    000646
    Participant

    Daas Yochid,

    The Israelis weren’t controlling E”Y until they took it over either. In my analogy the Native Americans put together a military and took control. I don’t know exactly what Native American beliefs are regarding how they came to live in America but they probably believe they had a god given right to be there too.

    #1607740

    000646
    Participant

    Philospher,

    Of course the IDF controls the area. The Israeli military goes in and out at will and completely controls the land. There are even Jewish settlements in the West Bank. I don’t think even the most right wing people in the Israeli government really deny this.

    The Palistinians in those areas were NEVER given the option of Israeli citizenship. They didn’t “turn it down” it was never offered and never will be offered, as long as Israel wants to be a Jewish and democratic state.

    #1607762

    000646
    Participant

    Avik,

    So you believe that in theory people like the Native Americans have a right to come back to lands they left generations before and keep the current population under military control until another country somewhere else takes them in?

    #1607774

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Another problem with your native American comparison : the people of NY are innocent civilians who never harmed the native Americans. The same cannot be said of the Arabs living in Israel who constantly attack and murder Jews at the first opportunity or gleefully celebrate when innocent Jews are murdered. Also there are no current native Americans living in NY so what gives them a right to kick out the civilians there who did nothing to them because their ancestors were kicked out? That is another hole. There were always Jews living in EY abd the Arabs attacked them before they even had a state (1929 chevron massacre for one)

    So here’s your analogy rewritten : the people of NY constantly attack indigenous native Americans simply because they don’t want them living there. One day the native Americans rise up and expel the new Yorkers.

    Yes that would be great. You would expect the new Yorkers to have faced the same lynchings the NA had undergone beforehand at the hand of the new Yorkers. They are lucky to just get off with expulsion.

    Also the only counterpoint you have made to the incentivized immigration plan is that no one will take them. 2 counter points to that:

    A) what makes you so certain no one will take them? Has it ever been tried? Especially if they’re coming with money given to them by Israel they are good additions to poor or rich Arab countries besides for the Arab loving Sweden, Canada eu etc? It is definitely worth a try.

    Besides the main reasons why the Arab countries keep them in refugee camps is to further the rage against Israel but also because economically they make allot of money off all the aid given to them. Close unrwa and all aid, give the Arabs money to emigrate and most probably they’ll sing a different tune.

    B) A only applies to Arabs who pose a demographic threat but not a security risk. For the violent terrorists and their supporters, we can just expel them. They are a danger to our lives and if they are penniless wanderers for the rest of their lives – they deserve it. Their actions caused it.

    Besides the Arab countries didn’t waste a second before expelling their peaceful, non terrorist, Jewish populations
    as soon as the state was founded. They certainly didn’t worry to see who would take them in. Non peaceful terrorists certainly do not deserve any better.

    #1607775

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Israelis weren’t controlling E”Y until they took it over either. In my analogy the Native Americans put together a military and took control. I don’t know exactly what Native American beliefs are regarding how they came to live in America but they probably believe they had a god given right to be there too.

    But now they are. If you want to go according to past history, it still belongs to the Jews. You are going according to one specific time in history, but both before, and after, it belongs the the Jewish people.

    Who cares what the Native Americans “probably” believe? Does the actual truth mean nothing to you?

    I notice you didn’t respond to my point that it’s not practical because of security.

    #1607783

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s exactly what the Palestinians want to do!

    Well, not precisely. They don’t merely want military control, they want to annihilate us.

    #1607784

    philosopher
    Participant

    000646, of course, you conviently neglected to mention that Gaza, the terrorist entity that the Fakestinians set up, because I assume you won’t go that far with your lies, and you know good and well that Israel has no control in Gaza. So why are you blaming Israel now that the Fakestinians have a government? And in the West Bank, the Israelis go in and out of Fakestinian controlled areas only with the coordination of the PLO.

    Of course the Fakestinians weren’t given an option of citizenship, since they they rejected Israel, why would they be given an option?!

    And you neglect to respond to the fact that when Palestine was devided between Jews and Arabs, it was the Arabs who attacked Jews. It really seems like you’d love that to happen again. You care so much about the Fakestinians, you want them to have a state so they can do what they say they want to do, attack Jews and get them out of the entire Palestine.

    You ignore the FACT that the majority of Fakestinians have not lived in Palestine for hundreds of years, most of them emigrated in the latecan20th and early 21 St centuries.

    Anyways, my point that you are continously ignoring is how can a Jew support a people that overwhelmingly say they want to kill Jews?! How can a Jew support a people engaged in constant violence angainst other Jews? There’s no excuse ever for this violence,but particularly now that they have their own government and army, so how can a Jew side with such a people? Shame on you, traitor to your people.

    #1607793

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, CS, Philosopher: If Israel annexes Judea, Samaria and Gaza, should the Arabs living there be granted Israeli citizenship and voting rights?

    #1607792

    000646
    Participant

    Daas Yochid,

    The Palistinians only had a problem with the Jews living there when the Jews started taking control of the land. They did live there before the land was taken over and if they were given a say in how it should be divided up I truly believe that more moderate voices would prevail. Right now you have millions of people with no say in the government that controls their lands and see the military that is controlling their land as a mortal enemy that wants them dead or gone because they are not the right ethnicity. The longer this goes on the worse the problem will become.

    #1607800

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Palistinians only had a problem with the Jews living there when the Jews started taking control of the land.

    Yeah, the Zionists got us into a huge mess. The solution isn’t to commit suicide.

    #1607802

    000646
    Participant

    Philospher,

    The IDF has complete control over everything going in and out of Gaza. Nothing and no one leaves or enters without the IDFs permission. How is that not being controlled by the IDF.

    There are Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Israelis live there. It’s completley under Israeli military control.

    Again, it’s not really relevant when exactly the Palistinians now living in the West Bank and Gaza moved to the area (though for many it certainly was hundreds of years) the point is that they were living there when the IDF seized control of it.

    #1607804

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    646: You actually aren’t arguing facts as you keep asserting.
    Israel did not invade and forcefully take over the land like you keep saying. Jews immigrated there and were attacked by the Arabs. They formed armies (it wasn’t one unified IDF at first) to save themselves. I’m sorry they didn’t allow themselves to all be killed like you would have loved.

    You also keep saying over and over that they aren’t bad people and are just upset about being occupied. More than one of us have referenced surveys now that the average Palestinian supports murdering/abusing Jews. Why don’t you just say what you believe: that those polls are all part of a big Jewish Zionist conspiracy and aren’t true. Just admit that you agree with literally all of the shittas of the Neo Nazis.

    #1607806

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Also, 646, I know I’m not going to change your rabidly Antisemitic opinions. My goals here are to:

    Make you feel unwelcome and hopefully leave the CR for good, or cross a line and get blocked.
    Make you feel less liked and worse about yourself as any anti Semite deserves.
    Make you realize that you have no allies: if you’re Jewish, the Arabs hate you, and thanks to your opinions, so do your own people.

    Sometimes these things have to happen for the greater good. No matter how tough you want to act behind your screen, the Achilles heel of all of you liberals is that you’re extremely sensitive and easily offended by anyone who doesn’t tell you how perfect and genius you are.

    #1607811

    000646
    Participant

    ChabadShlucha,

    The Palistinians that were living in what is now Israel before the Zionist movement started gathering steam had done nothing to the Jews, and the stateless Palistinians being born in the West Bank and Gaza definitely did nothing to the Jews either.

    America was absolutely taken by extreme force from the Native Americans who lived there. They were literally driven out by force, were brutally and viciously massacred and had their land shamelessly stolen from them. In fact whatever crimes may have been committed against the Palistinians pales in comparison by many orders of magnitude to what was done to the Native Americans. Israel wasn’t founded by people living in the land “rising up and rebelling” against a tyrannical regime. Israel was founded by Jewish people emigrating back to their ancestral homeland after having lived other places for 2000 years. (Much longer then the Native Americans have been gone from America) I think the analogy is perfectly sound.

    Find a rich country that they will want to move to that is willing to take them in and then your emigration plan can be discussed. Until then from their point of view and the point of view of the world they should be living with equal rights in the land they were living before the IDF took over.

    #1607814

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “The Palistinians only had a problem with the Jews living there when the Jews started taking control of the land.”

    The 1929 massacre disproves this.

    “They did live there before the land was taken over and if they were given a say in how it should be divided up I truly believe that more moderate voices would prevail.”

    So what happened to the partition plan in 1948

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