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I was curious what YWN members think chassnim and kallahs should be doing during their engagement. I’m talking in regard to preparing yourself for your future life living with another human being. Is there any specific courses, books, seforim you would recommend reading/learning? Any shiurim to listen to?
Another thing I want to know is your opinion on this idea of mine. All chassanim and kallahs learn hilchas niddah before the wedding as well as haskafah regarding intimacy. What I’m proposing is that the kallah teacher speaks to the chosson (or the Chosson teacher who knows the chosson) in order for everyone to be clear who they’re dealing with in regard to frumkeit etc before teaching the person. (the same vice versa in regard to the chosson teacher speaking to the kallah etc) The reason I’m suggesting this is because I think everyone is for two reasons. One is because everyone is different and teaching every chosson/kallah the same thing won’t work. Some are more frum and some are less (I mean even in the same circles). The second reason that the two teachers should speak, is because I’ve heard of quite a few cases where the chosson is taught one thing and the kallah is taught something else which causes unnecessary tension and confusion. What do you think?
I think you meant to write pre-marital. (At least I hope you did–otherwise you better get some good pre-marital advice.)
I think your thread title is really funny. Yes, good advice will hopefully prevent fighting.
They should ask their rabeim what they should be doing.
I too believe a martial arts course for choosanim and kallahs would be an interesting innovation.
The shidduch crisis is because choosanim are too choosy.
The second reason that the two teachers should speak, is because I’ve heard of quite a few cases where the chosson is taught one thing and the kallah is taught something else which causes unnecessary tension and confusion. What do you think?
I agree that it’s an issue. I don’t have a solution.
The shidduch crisis is because choosanim are too choosy.
How are you defining “the shidduch crisis”?
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/defining-the-shidduch-crisis
lol
I think that the Dear Son and the Dear Daugher books are very good and I think both parties should read both books.
In terms of hilchos nidah and tznius, the chosson and kallah should agree on rov to whom they will ask shailos in advance and just agree to follow his psak.
All chosson and kallah teachers (especially kallah teachers) should tell their students that there are many different shittos and approaches in these matters and that they should not get upset because of they are hearing something from their spouse that sounds different than what they were taught.
Yes, intimacy and niddah issues should be discussed. Equally important, they should be instructed on:
Budgeting
Reconciling a checkbook
Acknowledge that they will have arguments; learning how to work through them
How to deal with in-laws
Men are from mars, women are from venus.
BTW, men; remeber that women are entirely different from men. the jokes you can tell a good friend , and good natured insults will make girls cry and hurt them deeply. your wife is the most wonderful, precious person you will ever know.learn how to treat her correctly
“Men are from mars, women are from venus.”
Correction: men are from Earth, women are from Earth. DEAL WITH IT!
from personal experience, it is EXTREMLY important to have the Kallah teacher speak to the chatan or the chatan teacher, as this very personal subject can become very uncomfortable if both sides wherent taught the same information.
The suggestions about material above are all good and needed. Here is one that was not mentioned, and may be as important as the others, if not more. There needs to be some spiritual clarity about who the other one is. IF the boy was put into the shidduch market as a learning boy, there will be an expectation (a reasonable one) that he also make it to minyanim on time, and not be busy with extremes of gashmiyus, technology, etc. If he is more “with it” and this violates the expectations the kallah had, the trouble has where to start really early. If the girl was put on the market as a really ruchniyusdige girl, and she is not, another trouble spot.
Basically, the masquerades that are employed to pull off shidduchim are potentially very destructive.
Couples need to have an approach to marriage that is much deeper than friendship. A shocking percentage of madrichim spend no time on this subject. Love should be a major discussion, not a passing mention. Expressing affection should also be addressed directly and openly. Remember, we have few role models on such matters (if any).
another important topic that is almost never discussed before marriage is the Expression of affection. in the community we grow up in this subject has to be addressed in a very clear manner prior to marriage. as ‘the little I know’ mentioned, this issue should be addressed directly and openly, even in earlier stages, before actually getting engaged for instance in seminaries and/or yeshivot
postSem:
I agree completely. There are ways to deal with this subject without being offensive, even to the “frummest”. It is a delicate subject to discuss with an audience of a classroom. Actually, there is growing pressure to begin the process of preparation for marriage in yeshivos and schools, to focus on the midos needed to manage a relationship. There are many subjects that can be safely addressed, such as communication, consideration for another, the merging of families with different values/patterns/minhagim, etc. If you are among those who are sitting back expecting yeshivos and schools to designate one of their faculty to create a curriculum and to implement it, I hope you are not holding your breath. But there is outside pressure, and I wish it much success.
Meanwhile, the batei din, toanim, and matrimonial lawyers are all very busy.
TLIK, boys who like technology and don’t come to minyan on time shouldn’t learn?
TLIK – “Couples need to have an approach to marriage that is much deeper than friendship. A shocking percentage of madrichim spend no time on this subject. Love should be a major discussion, not a passing mention. Expressing affection should also be addressed directly and openly”
It’s absolutely Not necessary. Most people get the hang of it. And besides, if e/o got the hang of it & there was no exceptions, you’d be out of a job (Mr. Shrink)!
It is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL!!!
love, respect, and a constant appreciation for all the wonderful things your spouse signifies . support,stability ,management, and the ability to make you a better person. boys, remember that even though it sounds mushy, tell your wife that you love her, and show appreciation for all that she does. shoichad ( bribery) and chanifa is a mitzva in marriage.
I think most people would get the hang of driving too, without any instruction.
If you notice – the only ones pro-marital therapy before marriage is the shrink & the women posters. The only recommendation, I’d make is to read Sarah Radcliff’s books beforehand, but it’s Not necessary!
I have a great solution thats in my head for a while that will help.
If the choson and kallah teacher would be a married couple. she teaches the girls and he teaches the boys, so first of all the choson and kallah would be on same page, and should any issues come up in the future it would be much more simple to solve cause the choson teacher will be able to discuss it with at the kallah teacher face to face in a timely manor and much more openly.
Im thinking of doing this myself and my wife for a while. She is perfect for this, a great teacher and communicator, I believe that any choson and kallah that will be coached by me and my wife will a great and long lasting loving relationship ,and avoid many issues that come up down the road
I want to add one more point, i think its essential that choson kallah go one year after their marriage back to their choson and kallah teacher .
Why don’t the chosson and kallah have classes together?
for the choson and kallah to have classes is not appropriate and not a great idea either . After they are married and go to a refresher course, then it might be good idea to have it together.
Matan1: 1. Because there are multiple students in the class, so they can’t be mixed. 2. Because the instructions are different to each. 3. Because some subjects are inappropriate for an opposite gender to teach even if it were one on one.
before the couple Is actually married- going together to classes would be (TO SAY THE LEAST) extremely uncomfortable and even immodest.
Why don’t the chosson and kallah have classes together?
Lack of tznius.
If there is a mechitzah, why is it a tznius problem?
The topic of discussion itself.
postSem – “from personal experience, it is EXTREMLY important to have the Kallah teacher speak to the chatan or the chatan teacher, as this very personal subject can become very uncomfortable if both sides wherent taught the same information”
Your personal experience Doesn’t make you an expert! If sometimes, most of the time Not, if after the marriage there is a conflict, they should go to their Rov. Hopefully, they can agree on which one to go to. The same as which therapist to go to!
PostSem did not claim to be an expert. And the earlier comment seemed to imply that being a woman or a therapist makes a person’s opinions not matter?
rabbi rokeach and his wife (from marine park) actually are both chosson (him) and kallah (her) teachers
so rabbi and mrs rokeach in marine park, and soon we will have rabbi and and mrs Biggolp from coffee room lol
re golfer’s remark about martial arts: A martial arts place near me was advertising “bridal boot camp.” It’s not clear whether this is for offensive or defensive training.
I don’t get it. If they are going to be married, why can’t they sit in the same class together?
Matan- you clearly are either not married, or have never been to such classes, because they are very OBVIOUSLY not appropriate to attend together prior to marriage..?????? ???? …
Mr. Yidd – “PostSem did not claim to be an expert.”
Her comment of “from personal experience, it is EXTREMLY important etc.”, implied that others should follow the same. Therefor, I made my comment!
“And the earlier comment seemed to imply that being a woman or a therapist makes a person’s opinions not matter”
There was No such implication! Don’t put words in my mouth!
postSem, while I have never been married and have never attended such classes, I believe that if two people are mature enough to marry, they can learn these halachos together.
I don’t see why this is an issue of tznius. Sure, it’s a sensitive topic, but the whole idea of marrying someone is a sensitive topic. If two people are going to live together, certainly they can learn together!
No, they’re not married yet.
Matan: As DY said, they’re not married to each other yet so it is inappropriate for the choson and kalah to be having a joint discussion on this topic. Additionally, the instructions are different for the choson than for the kallah. And furthermore, the topic itself is even inappropriate for a teacher of the opposite gender to teach it. (And whatever gender the teacher is, he/she will be the opposite of either the choson or the kallah.)
Am I the only one who thinks that the new couple has to be educated in matters they’ve never dealt with before? Typically, most couples under the age of 22 ( and older chassanim who’ve spent their adult life in full time learning ) have no clue how to manage a household, pay bills etc.
In addition, they have an idealized view of marriage and have to recognize that there will be disagreements and learn how to resolve those disagreements.
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