Proper Etiquette or Against Halacha?

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Controversial Topics Proper Etiquette or Against Halacha?

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 136 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #597153

    Sharpie282
    Member

    Last night, I went on a date with a yeshivish boy who deliberately wouldn’t hold the car door open for me or any other door for that matter. Especially when entering into rooms, he would always go first.

    Being the blunt person that I am, I questioned his behaviour, in a nonchalant way of course. He told me its a halacha not enough people take seriously, where men can’t walk behind women.

    Where can I look up this halacha inside? Why is it that not enough people practice it? Isn’t it only menchlach for a boy to hold the door for his date?

    A while back I went on a date with some other yeshivish boy who held the door open for me as I entered the car and he told me his Rebbie told him this is something that he must do on dates …What is the right thing?

    #773532

    shlishi
    Member

    Why do you feel entitled to go in first?

    #773533

    shlishi
    Member

    BTW I think he is correct about there being such a halacha.

    #773534

    Shlishi are u married?

    #773535

    If the other boys rebbe told him he should open the door, then I think u should date boys from that yeshiva.

    #773536

    aries2756
    Participant

    Never heard about this before but I believe his Rebbe is not helping him in the Shidduch situation or maybe he would be better of with a beshow and not a real date.

    #773537

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The gemara disparages men who walk behind women. Manoach is called an am haaretz because he walked behind his wife.

    In any event, it is completely normal on dates that the guy opens the door and precedes the girl in, holding the door.

    #773539

    rekorf
    Member

    its brought down in kitzur shulchan aruch, siman kuf nun beis (152), seif ches. enjoy and good luck. let us know what happens with him. I personally havent seen so many people makpid with this for some reason.

    #773540

    shlishi
    Member

    I find it strange that the OP would stand on principle in demanding to be first. Even if b’shittosai you feel it to be “etiquette” to have the door opened, a) perhaps that feeling is not shared by your date or even (as he said) there is a halachic issue with it and b) even putting that aside, to demand this honor for oneself from a date is a haughtiness that I would think would rightfully result in the boy terminating the dating with her.

    #773541

    aries2756
    Participant

    PBA, maybe from a male perspective but from a female perspective it is rude. I believe we had this discussion a few times before on other threads.

    #773542

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    True, a man should not walk behind a woman. However, when this concept gets so warped to point where it interferes with proper manners and respectful behavior, one really has to make a level headed decision and think about what REALLY is important. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with a man opening a door for his date. It is proper, considerate, and honorable. So many problems are caused by people who think certain stringencies are more important than anything else. Really, the only time a boy MAYBE shouldn’t open a door for his date is if he has mastered all of Tanach, never speaks Lashon Hara, always judges people favorably, etc. Only THEN might he be able to take this upon himself. For the rest of us: Let’s focus on more important things, first.

    #773543

    good.jew
    Member

    aries2756, sorry, but halacha doesn’t change based on male or female perspective.

    #773544

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Middlepath: What you are proposing is not the middle path. It is ignoring halacha.

    #773545

    BaalSechel
    Participant

    There is a Halacha that a man should not walk behind a woman. There is no Halacha that he should not open the door for you. I would check his middos carefully with his roommates and close friends. If he is mentchlich with them I would not be too concerned about the car door. If he is somewhat self centered you may need to think hard about whether he is worth your while. Hatzlacha!

    #773547

    wanderingchana
    Participant

    Sharpie, I think you should ask your Rav everything you asked here…

    #773548

    aries2756
    Participant

    Then he should open the door for his date count to ten and then walk in himself. That way he wouldn’t be walking behind her and can be polite to boot.

    BTW, I wonder if he were going onto a bus, train or in any other doorway does he follow this halacha as well?

    #773549

    shlishi
    Member

    aries: Should he tell her to continue walking as he counts to ten? Otherwise she may just stand in the doorway, waiting for him as he is counting, defeating the purpose.

    #773550

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    aries:

    For blazeds sake, what is wrong with him going in and holding the door for her behind him?

    (And if you recall, I am in favor of opening the car door, but then walking away while she gets in.)

    #773551

    TheGoq
    Participant

    i think we should encourage young men to wear horse blinders on dates to avoid such situations just remind them to say neigh when the bartender asks if he wants a beer.

    #773552

    Why would one rebbe say it is fine to open the door and even encourage it. Something tells

    MeThe rebbe has a better understanding of this Halacha then the yeshiva student as well as the majority of people

    Here

    #773553

    shlishi
    Member

    Mike: Not every anonymous report of an anonymous rebbe is necessarily accurate. And why are you giving greater credence to that report, than the bochor’s own report that his rebbe taught him it is not permissible (and as several posters above cited from halacha)?

    #773554

    Sacrilege
    Member

    I like how all of a sudden the men are so frum…

    #773556

    I wish the Coffee Room had a LIKE button the way that facebook does!!!

    #773557

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    Popa: What part of my post exactly was ignoring halacha? I did not say anywhere a man should walk behind a woman; Quite the contrary. I started out by saying that should not be done. Everything I proposed can be done in accordance with halacha. However, my main point should not be obscured.. Which is- that we should focus on important things that can change us beneficially before things that sacrifice our good manners.

    #773558

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Popa: What part of my post exactly was ignoring halacha?

    True, a man should not walk behind a woman. However, when this concept gets so warped to point where it interferes with proper manners and respectful behavior, one really has to make a level headed decision and think about what REALLY is important.

    Hmmmm. When “true…” is followed by “However…”, one is not following halacha.

    #773559

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    Popa: That is not always the case. But your’e right, my choice of words could have been better. I should not have used the word “However”. I should have used another word to illustrate the idea of delving into a statement further to find its essence and where it applies and where it doesn’t. Perhaps you can help me find a better word. But I think you’ll agree with me that aside from that word, the main points of my post are in accordance with halacha and, in my opinion, the correct method. If others want to disagree with me, fine. That wont change how I feel.

    #773560

    Eizena Kup
    Member

    1) Todays girls forgot how to operate a door handle?? Did it ever occur that maybe, just maybe, the princess in questions should show SOME manners, and offer to hold open a door?!?

    2) Yes/ It IS halacha. A man (male, boy bochur or man) does not walk behind a woman. HIS OWN TOO! To do so is boorishness. Any modern-day ‘gemutlichkeit’ is not correct middos. <<BOMBSHELL>> We are commanded in our Torah to wipe out amalek. ‘What?!’, you counter, how could you do such a thing. Where’s middos, proper manners? Kill out a whole ??? ??????!? How could you do that? Murder?!? Well, thats your answer. Middos tovos come to us from ????, not from modern-day etiquette. That’s what ?????? explain why we preface ??? ??? ???? ????? to Pirkei Avos. Look it up! Halacha certainly does not bow AN IOTA to ‘modern-day-mannerism’. (Where’s those with the ‘Women are holier then men’ opinion? If they’re holier, shouldn’t they understand a basic Torah principle??)

    #773561

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I see what you are saying.

    I will agree that this halacha is probably something that would be balanced in halacha against other considerations.

    I will disagree though, that the considerations you raise are valid. To whatever extent it is considered proper etiquette to allow a woman to walk before you, that is not a torah hashkafa, and is indeed anti-torah. And not because of tznius, Manoach (shimshon’s father) was criticized for walking behind his own wife. It is because men are more chashuv, they are supposed to go first.

    #773562

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    Let me quickly explain something I just said a little better: When I said “The correct method”, I DO NOT mean it to be for everyone. Merely, for the circles I myself am in. It may not work for others.

    #773563

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    What does the Halacha say is not permitted?Is it walking behind them or looking at them from behind them??

    #773565

    Master
    Member

    Considering the halacha and all, I think the proper approach depends on how the door is designed. If it is a pull-out door, the girl should open it for the guy and follow him in afterwards; if it is a push-in door, the guy should open it and go in, and hold it open for the girl.

    #773566

    2qwerty
    Participant

    Notice that only holding the door into a room may cause this problem. However, as the previous date mentioned opening car door should still be done since then there is no excuse of guy walking behind.

    #773567

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Master: That’s called someone with brains.

    LIKE

    #773568

    Englishman
    Member

    2qwerty – Actually a car door is an even larger problem, since it provides the greatest amount of exposure when seating herself in the vehicle.

    #773569

    2qwerty
    Participant

    Englishman, no one says he should look. Just open it and leave.

    #773570

    lmnop
    Member

    Rashi

    ?????? ??? ?”? ???? ?”?

    ?? ???? ??? ????. ????? ????? ??????, ???? ????? ????? ??????….

    #773571

    Englishman
    Member

    2qwerty – I understand your point, and I suppose it would work if he does as you say, opens the door and leaves before she gets in, and she closes it herself. Although I should point out I’ve never heard it done in this manner. From what I’ve seen there are only two situations, either he opens and closes it for her (in which case the aforementioned problem is present) or he doesn’t open it for her altogether. Your idea of him opening and immediately leaving prior to her getting in would work in theory, but in practice once he opens it he may feel compelled by social pressure to wait for her to get in (with the aforementioned consequences that you’ve acknowledged.)

    #773572

    Master
    Member

    ZeesKite: Thanks for the stamp of approval. I should add a benefit to the approach I mentioned is that once they leave the building it would reverse itself. Whoever opened the door when they came in, would now have it opened for them by their date when they are going out. Since if it was a pull-out coming in, it will be a push-in going out (or vice versa.) So in this manner both parties have the opportunity to open the door for their date, either coming in or going out.

    #773573

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    From what I’ve seen there are only two situations, either he opens and closes it for her or he doesn’t open it for her altogether.

    Actually, everyone in my circles opens the door and walks away. It is quite common and normal.

    I don’t mean to be confrontational, but just how much have you looked into this that you say “from what I’ve seen”?

    #773574

    Englishman
    Member

    popa_bar_abba – I don’t pretend to be an expert, if there ever was one. And I’m sure our experiences may have different nuances on this side of the pond. Nevertheless, from the admittedly limited experiences I’ve encountered, the folks that are subscribers to chivalrous practices would be quite remiss to force their princess to exert herself in closing the door.

    #773575

    hanib
    Participant

    i went out with both kinds of guys and had no problem with either; it said more about what kind of background they were coming from, rather than a statement of their etiquette.

    usually, the guy who went forth would explain his behavior and/or make a joke about it or something.

    #773576

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Oh I see, you are actually English. My bad.

    Well, in any event, in the former empire, it is much more common to have guys on dates who open the door and walk away.

    In fact, until recently, I think that was standard practice even among the highly yeshivish. And some of the highly yeshivish still do.

    (I know, my relatives have excellent highly yeshivish creds, but I’m not calling them out on this forum. But trust me, you’d agree.)

    #773577

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Well, he always has the option of following in backwards.

    GABBAIM, the problem is only walking.

    #773578

    Sabzi
    Member

    Master, I totally agree…. also, maybe ladies wouldn’t feel so disrespected if they learned a little halacha

    #773579

    Shlishi if you read the first post you will see that on one count the brochur has made the decision on his own while on the other side the first brochur was given direct instructions from his rebbe. I am not choosing one over the other. I am choosing what the first brochure rebbe said. So yes I’m going to go with the rebbe and not some student with a far less understanding of the Halacha….

    #773580

    m in Israel
    Member

    I’m actually with popa on this one! When I dated my husband he opened the car door for me, stood in front of it while I entered the car (i.e. with the car door between me and him), and then closed it for me. When we entered a door, he entered first, holding the door open for me behind him. If the door opened towards him, he held it until I entered the room. If it opened toward the outside, I would hold the door as I entered so he could let go and we wouldn’t have an awkward “traffic jam”! I knew this Halacha, and I assumed that’s how all people who were shomer halacha did it.

    mikehall — The “other guy’s” rebbe is quoted as saying he should open the car door. That is very easily done without violating this Halacha, as has been explained. He is not addressing the issue of going through doorways, which involves walking behind a woman, which is the Halachic problem.

    Middlepath — What “stringency” are you referring to that people are considering more important than manners? Not walking behind a woman is Halacha, not a “stringency”. I am completely confused by your original post. Why would someone not be obligated to keep Halacha unless he “mastered all of tanach, never speaks L”H. . . ” as you say? If this is Halacha, it is not something you can “take upon yourself” — we all took it upon ourselves to follow Halacha at Har Sinai!!!! (That doesn’t mean one can’t open a door under certain circumstances, such as when the door enters inward and the man goes first and holds it for her — as long as it follows Halacha)

    #773581

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Didn’t we have a long thread on this already?

    No matter what you do, please try to open heavy doors for people who appear to need the help (the elderly, pregnant, people holding packages etc).

    #773582

    oomis
    Participant

    ?? ???? ??? ????. ????? ????? ??????, ???? ????? ????? ??????….

    You are quoting a RASHI to make the wrong point, in my opinion. If you think about what Rashi was pointing out, this had nothing to do with etiquette/halacha about who shouls preceed whom, and everything to do with Yaakov Avinu trying to protect (an act of chivalry, by the way) his wives from the possibility of being assaulted by Eisav. Eisav cared little about his women, so like Osama Bin Laden, he let them walk out first, just in case someone wanted to attack him.

    #773583

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    speaking of awkward situations, i go to college and we have a few frum men in the program. one day last week i reached to doors 2 seconds before one of the man, so i held the door for him. BUT NO!!!!!!! chas v’shaloim he should walk through a door held by a single girl. needless to say the elevator ride up was really awkward and he bolted the second the doors opened

    i learned in HS that the only problem is a man/woman walking behind the opposite gender, and that walking diagonally behind is OK. is this true or not?

    #773584

    canine
    Member

    yenta: There’s no problem with a woman walking behind a man. (In fact someone has to be behind if she isn’t his wife.) And there is a problem with a guy walking behind whether it’s diagonal or not.

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 136 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending