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My sense is that the Rambam endorses free market ideals on many points.
He says in numerous places that people are obligated to choose austerity and hard work, even in many lowly jobs, rather than accept a handout. And he also says that it is better to teach a man to fish than to give him a fish (in different terms).
Did the Ryevid disagree with him on these economic issues? Today’s Haredim have no qualms about going on welfare and they follow the Ryevid on many matters over the Rambam. Could this be one of them?
Whaaaaaaat?
Where in the world are you getting your info from?
(the first two paragraphs are correct, the last is off the wall)
Aside from the question at hand, accepting entitlement funding from a non-Jewish government is not equivelent to accepting a tzedaka handout.
See Hilchot Matanot Aniyim.
“entitlement funding from a non-Jewish government”
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When government gives money from their personal bank accounts, these money from government.
Welfare and any other programs – money taken from all taxpayers (Jewish and non-Jewish)
charliehall, that the best level of tzedaka is finding him a trade. yes. But what in the world is this Rayvid business?
that people are obligated to choose austerity and hard work
hmm. How about sequester and hard work?
The chareidim are the ones who follow the rambam. The rambam writes at the end of hilchos shmita v’yovel:
???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?”? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ?????, ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????. ????? ?????? ????? ?????. ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?????, ??? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ??? ????. ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?”? ????. ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????. ??? ??? ??? ????, ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?”? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?”? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????, ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????, ????? ?”? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ??????. ????? ?? ???”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????. ??? ??? ?”? ???? ?”? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????
So don’t throw your rambams at me, because I throw it right back.
Poppa, that quote tells us that anyone make aspire to kesser Torah, and trust in the havtocho of divine providence. It does not indicate that an individual or community should sit and learn with a hand stuck out.
PBA: If the Charaidim were on that level, the they wouldn’t be complaining about the coalition and not getting funding. They are obviously NOT
???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????
Perhaps a select few are (such as Rav Chaim), but not the Hamon Am.
The economy today is so different it is impossible to apply modern terms to what the Rambam or any contemporary said.
Money as we know it didn’t exist 1000 years ago. They bartered using commodities, goods, and pieces of rare metals (gold, silver and copper in particular- which are really just commodities).
Due to globalization, crop shortages don’t result in starvation. Indeed, even in the poorest countries, obesity is the fastest growing public health problem. If some is starving today, it means their government is causing it to happen by some deliberate policy.
Jews have always had a propensity to stop working once they have enough to eat and spend more time learning. We have always been more concerned with how a job affects ability to do mitsvos than with making money.
Giving someone money so they can spend more time learning is hardly welfare. It’s a tradition. Whereas goyim learn only to find a way to get more money, we learn since the existence of the world depends on it. Among the Jews, only those who shirk their duty concentrate on getting rich, leaving the burden of Torah and Mitsvos to those who tend to be moser nefesh to have the time (and given today’s economy, it doesn’t take all that much meserias nefesh to find the time).
They bartered using commodities, goods, and pieces of rare metals (gold, silver and copper in particular- which are really just commodities).
Kefirah. The Torah defines money (as per the Gemorah Kiddushin) as a certain value of silver (or gold, as per the Machlokes in HaZahav). That is “Money”, and FRNs, NIS or Wampum is not.
Period.
RebDoniel: Why are you fixated on the Raavad? There are many Rishonim who argue on the Rambam on numerous matters. And who says anybody argues with the Rambam on this matter? And from where do you get that ridiculous assertion that the Rambam is generally not followed especially by Charedim?
No offence but you are way off here.
gavra_at_work=
The English word “money” as currently defined has nothing to do with Kesef, Zahav, etc. In fact, there is no word in the Hebrew language for “money”. The people of the time of the gemara (Jews and goyim) had no conception of what we in the 21st century refer to as “money”, and probably would think we must be totally insane to confuse what we call “money” with what they used for money (many conservative economists would probably agree with them).
The word modern Israeli word “kesef” actually refers to “silver”. Modern Ivrit has adapted it to refer to “money.” In modern English, money consists of entries in bank accounts, which exist in online databases (for the most part) and are typically exchanged via the internet. Some people still make limited use of paper certificates or coins made of worthless metal, but their use is being phased out. Kesef and Zahav are rarely used for commercial purposes on a daily basis (can you imagine offering a one-ounce coin to pay for pizza).
However since the modern economy totally runs on what in English is called “money”, which is a virtual unit of relative value with no intrinsic worth and certainly no fixed or stable worth – it is impossible to apply any psak halacha about what was used for “money” more than a few centuries ago to the modern economy.
Thus talking about Rambam and “Free market economy” makes no more sense than talking about Rambam and the telephone, or Rambam and the computer.
Poppa, that quote tells us that anyone make aspire to kesser Torah, and trust in the havtocho of divine providence. It does not indicate that an individual or community should sit and learn with a hand stuck out.
Quite the contrary, it is precisely saying the community must support them, as well as relieve them of sharing all societal burdens, like shevet levi.
GAW: I disagree with you about the reading. Parak me’al tzavaro means they decide not to engage in productive activity, and rely on the community like the leviim, as I noted.
akuperma: With all due respect, there are halachic ramifications as per what is “halachicly” considered “money”, even vs. “Shave Kesef” (such as the actual value of a Perutah, or being Mekadesh an Isha with an FRN, or Pidyon of Ma’aser Shaini).
I’m not dealing with the Rambam (which I believe I have sufficently in my response to PBA. I also believe (IIRC) that the Gaon in Yorah Dayah (246.9) makes your point regarding a wealthy society.
Besides, I believe it is Muchrach like you, as the Rambam did not deal with Tuition payments (re: the Ramabam in Talmud Torah 1:14).
GAW: I disagree with you about the reading. Parak me’al tzavaro means they decide not to engage in productive activity, and rely on the community like the leviim, as I noted.
Like all good Satire, PBA does a good job in convincing us that he means this (even though he is obviously incorrect as far as the words are concerned. If he is given, he has no need to be Zoche.).
That is sort of condescending of you; but I’ll respond anyway. The rambam says Hashem will be mezache to them, like He is zoche to the kohanim and leviim–which are communal obligations.
PBA: After a thread like this one:
You have to expect that. Sorry if you don’t agree.
Please somebody? anybody? give me one rishon who ascribes that everybody should be learning not working and taking tzedaka to support his family. Just 1 rishon.
Please somebody? anybody? give me one rishon who ascribes that anybody should be working not learning and not fulfilling their potential to become a talmid chochom /posek/ rosh yeshiva. Just 1 rishon.
Yes Popa, there is the concept of asara batlonim, and private Yissochor Zevulun relationships. And you are indeed talented in reading things into the Rambam that are not there, and not reflected in the pesukim quoted
on the ball, maybe ask Reb Doniel for citations, or look it up yourself. The Rambam is a rishon, no?
on the ball-
You must be joking. Start with Ramban, Rambam Rashi just to name 3. These rishonim had professions and learned. No rishon says everybody should sit in yeshiva whether they are REALLY learning or not. Maybe only an elite few the Rambam says could spend all their time learning. But certainly nothing like we are seeing now.
And you still didnt answer my question: 1 rishon that says everybody should be learning and not working.
“Money as we know it didn’t exist 1000 years ago. They bartered using commodities, goods, and pieces of rare metals (gold, silver and copper in particular- which are really just commodities). “
Ohhh, yes it did. The first metal coins were minted in Lydia (in modern Turkey) in about 640 BCE according to most historians and numismatists (though I wonder about it, because it doesn’t take the machatzis hashekel into account) and they were minted, they had set values, and they were NOT traded as commodities (they weren’t even considered bullion- even though they had precious metals, there was less of it in each coin than the value of each coin) but as actual money. The Greeks and Romans indisputably had coins (you can buy them cheap on Amazon, they’re that plentiful) and I have no idea what kind of currency the Arabs used at that time, but money was NOT a foreign concept.
Money, of course, when it’s not based on a bullion-coin system (as very few civilizations have ever had), is pretty subjective- perhaps today more so, but it’s really a difference of degrees.
All of which is just the response of an amateur numismatist who got riled up. My real question: SO WHAT? Does the fact that money can be moved from one person to another without a single coin, bill or chicken being transferred, just a bunch of signals on the internet, mean that money doesn’t have the same purpose and that a handout is a handout and a salary is a salary? What exactly is the Rambam saying that can’t be applied today? There may be something, but the currency and definition of money is NOT it- as he’s not talking about money, he’s talking about the means to live, which is relevant whether you’re trading gold, beads or credit card information.
Of course the Rambam says that one who can should learn- but is his definition of who can the same as ours?
Musser zoger, acharonim like Radvaz and R’ Moshe Feinstein and others have stated that nowadays it is practically impossible to emulate Rishonim in combining full Torah knowledge with working.
So read my question carefully again and then give me 1 rishon.
“Please somebody? anybody? give me one rishon who ascribes that everybody should be learning not working and taking tzedaka to support his family. Just 1 rishon.”
***
If EVERYBODY will be learning not working – WHO will give tzedaka?
cv: calm your liver. Nobody today thinks everybody should be learning. And indeed, not everybody is learning. If there is ever a time when everybody is learning, then we will worry about it.
musser zoger, the Rambam poppa quoted clearly says that whoever wants may join shevet Levi in full-time learning, ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????
On the ball, please provide quotations and citations for the alleged statements of R’ Feinstein, etc. about combining Torah and work.
Maybe this is what you have in mind (translation from R’ Eidensohn’s blog). Note that R’ Moshe assumes kollel payments are based on funds from generous donors rather than the government, welfare, etc.:
[that payment is prohibited]
For a number of intersting additional sources on the obligation to work and the issue of combing it with Torah study, see pages 7 through 10 (on Google books you can read it for free) of Torah Study: A Survey of Classic Sources on Timely Issues.
Here are Rambam’s two seemingly contradictory quotes.
“Anyone who decides to be engaged in Torah [study] and not to work, and will be supported by Tzedaqa – this person desecrates God’s name (*Chillel et Hashem*), degrades the Torah, extinguishes the light of our faith, brings evil upon himself and forfeits life in *Olam haBa* (The world to come); since it is forbidden to derive benefit from the words of Torah in this world. The Rabbis said (Avot 4:5): Anyone who derives benefit from the words of Torah in this world, forfeits his life in Olam haBa. They further commanded and said: (Avot 4:5) Do not make them [the words of Torah] a crown to magnify yourself or an axe with which to chop. They further commanded, saying: (Avot 1:10) Love work and despise positions of power (*Rabbanut*). And: (Avot 2:2) Any Torah which is not accompanied by work will eventually be nullified and will lead to sin. Ultimately, such a person will steal from others.”
just as He granted to the kohanim [and]
How to reconcile them? The most obvious way: the second quote is referring to someone living an ascetic life, based on minimal work, and not living off donations. Note that the second quote does not say that the person can completely abandon all business affairs and be supported by others.
This is lengthy, but it’s very interesting. It’s a quote from Sefer HaBris by R’ Pinchas Horowitz of Vilna on the importance of learning a trade:
Also, such a person can be confident that he will not miss even a single day of his service of G-d, since his means of support is always at hand, and his sustenance is available in his dwelling and his own city. He will not lie down at night without having eaten, because a tradesman is never without sustenance, nor will he need to travel to faraway places in other lands to seek his sustenance. For when travelling, by necessity a person must be neglectful of the service of G-d, as is well known; there is no way to turn aside and focus on Torah and prayer with concentration when one is away from his place and has set out on the road.
[work and Torah learning]
[of Torah]– Sefer HaBris 2:12:10 (2:13:2 in the DBS version)
How to reconcile them? The most obvious way: the second quote is referring to someone living an ascetic life, based on minimal work, and not living off donations. Note that the second quote does not say that the person can completely abandon all business affairs and be supported by others.
You are misreading it if you think he is still supporting himself on minimal work, since the entire point of the rambam is to say that these people gain the status of leviim, and don’t have to join the army or any other societal burden, and are given there food from Hashem the same way the leviim are (through an obligation on us to support them).
If you want to answer the contradiction, why don’t you take a look at what the acharonim say. I’m sure you’re not the first one to ask this. I would guess out of mein boich, that the difference is whether your intention in the learning is to be paid for it, or if you are just learning l’shma and other people are giving you money like their obligation is to do.
Popa, Rambam’s not literally saying that they will gain the status of Leviim in the sense that they should be supported by ma’aser. He would have said that specifically if that’s what he meant. He said G-d will support them, not that the people will support them.
As for the acharonim, the book on google.books.com I cited above summarizes some of their views on these issues, which are in many cases sharply opposed to those of the Rambam.
Of course he is not saying they will be supported by maaser rishon. Maaser rishon only goes to real leviim. But he is saying they are exempt from taxes, the army, and all sharing of societal burdens.
And of course he is saying that we are required to support them. Precisely the way we are required to support leviim–which obviously goes beyond just giving them maaser rishon if that is insufficient.
As far as acharonim, I meant you should look at how acharonim who are saying pshat in the rambam answer this contradiction; not at acharonim who are saying other opinions.
Are there Achronim that resolve the contradiction? I always thought that most understood that Rambam pshuto kemashmao, that you’re not allowed to take money for Torah (which includes learning Torah, teaching Torah, being the Rav of a community). Most argue with the Rambam, saying no one become Rabbonim if that were the din, but I didn’t realize there are those who try and reinterpert the Rambam. The Rambam in Hilchos TT only says they are potur from serving in the army, it says nothing of them being supported.
Popa, I don’t understand how you’re reading all that into Rambam’s rather vague statement. If he meant that the community were obligated to support anyone who deigns to declare themselves a new-quasi Levite, he would have actually said that. He was perfectly capable of laying out the halachic details, if there were any.
For those interested in following up on this topic, R’ Noson Slifkin has a good analysis of what Rambam meant (and didn’t mean) by his “Not only the tribe of Levi statement.” Here it is:
Sorry, copyright violation.
Also, garbage. But posting garbage is not against the rules; only copyright violations are. The guy couldn’t learn a rambam if he was the Sultan.
I always thought that most understood that Rambam pshuto kemashmao, that you’re not allowed to take money for Torah
R’ Moshe obviously accepts the possibility that the Ramba”m was not “p’shuto k’mashmao” – “even if you wish to say that this is not the view of the Rambam”.
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