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  • #1077751

    Bais Yaakov maydel
    Participant

    adding to nobodys “tznius comes from within” just in hebrew: “kol kevuda bas melech—penima.”

    and i think nobody should change her name to somebody for that insightful comment–“any girl can become a woman. not every woman can become a lady.” something like that.

    kol hakavod

    #1077752

    JAPP
    Member

    tznius is a very important aspect of our life and we should be gaurd it very carefully

    #1077753

    Bais Yaakov maydel
    Participant

    maskim 100%. way to go JAPP

    #1077754

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    what qualifications do the moderators need???

    #1077755

    Bais Yaakov maydel
    Participant

    i think s/o asked that question in another topic…check it out…or just wait for a moderator to answer

    #1077756

    xerox
    Member

    check out ‘YWN MODERATER’

    #1077757

    Will Hill
    Participant

    shindy: there is a small pamphlet-like book that is probably sold in eichlers or a judaica/ torah treasures place….its called “Hee Tishallel (in hebrew) A Practical Guide to Tznius” by Rabbi Yaakov E. Forchheimer from Lakewood. he writes that “The men should speak to the men, and the women to the women. Although this woman may be your best friend’s wife, to you she is an eshes ish, and therefore an erva….The same is true for the women….By the same token, men and women who are not related should not call one another by their first names.” (page 37)Rabbi F. cites this from the Ibn HaEzer (Ibn Ezra), biShem the Maharshal.

    hope this helped.

    Thank you so much Bais Yaakov maydel. That is so true. Thanks for your pure words.

    #1077761

    Bais Yaakov maydel
    Participant

    thank you Will Hill, but those are the words of Rabbi Forcheimer, based on the Ibn Ezra, based on the Maharshal. i am only the messenger 🙂

    #1077762

    “I am not sure why YWN allowed your comment to be posted as it is clearly against Torah values.”

    I was not aware that YWN censored postings for content (aside from those that would clearly be inappropriate on a family site.) I have noticed that posts here are generally edited or deleted a) for clarity- spelling etc or b) for tone- personal attacks are not tolerated. However, I wrote a very long post in response to the replies I got to the last one that was published, and it has not appeared here. This upsets me, as I insulted nobody in the post. Since when is there a serious problem with pluralism, which was the main idea of the post?

    Now for the rest- I will (again) defend my position as best I can, assuming the moderators see fit to allow me to do so.

    “Atheism, the Reform, and Conservatives are incompatible with Judaism and the Torah.”

    I have already addressed this issue in other threads and I am not going to repeat myself here. Anyway, 000646 said it better than I could have.

    ICOT, I appreciate your sentiments and you have made me look at the issue in a different way. However, after some thought, I stand by my conclusion. I have had some really positive interaction with the Conservative community in Baltimore, and I noticed that a good deal of those who drive on Shabbos drive only to shul, not to the mall or grocery store, and furthermore, those who do drive to shul drive there because they do not live walking distance. I can think of at least two families who used to drive to shul and have since bought houses closer to shul so that they wouldn’t have to drive anymore. Granted, not all of them are like this, but many are. (This is part of why I get so upset when people make blanket statements like “all Conservative people are wrong and deserve Gehennom.”) As I have stated, I am not in the same position as these people are- some of them are also of the type to take that deal to strike the match on Shabbos so that they could use the wealth to do more mitzvot. It’s the same logic as driving to shul, that one aveirah will enable them to do a hundred mitzvot. Again, I don’t agree with it, but I respect it just as much as I respect those who are to the right of me. There seems to be this concept in the frum community that everybody to the left of X (say a typical frum Jew) is sinning terribly and preventing Moshiach from coming, while everybody to X’s right has just decided to take on more chumras. Maybe they’re unnecessary chumras, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with them. (Alternatively, everybody to X’s right is a tzaddik and X strives to be more like them! But never do I see such harsh condemnations expressed with regard to the extreme right as they are with regard to the extreme left.)

    Mrs. Beautiful, your point about atmosphere works with regard to a camp, but not with regard to an entire city or even a neighborhood (like Boro Park, which you cited as an example.) Clearly, one can find out the dress code of a camp beforehand and decide not to send children there if they are not prepared to abide by it. But in terms of the city in which one lives, are you actually suggesting that people move out if they do not like the unspoken “dress code” by which most of the residents seem to abide?

    On Tuesday night, I went to visit a friend of mine who grew up in a much more right wing home than I did. She is in seminary in an ultra-Orthodox neighborhood. I got off the bus and walked down the street to get to her apartment, realizing as I passed others that I was the only woman around wearing pants. This made me a little uncomfortable for a moment, and then I shrugged and kept walking. So what if I am more liberal than the majority of the women who live there? Should I have worn a long skirt just to “fit in”? It’s not as if I even live there, I was just passing through, and anyway, if I had done that, I would have felt as if I was hiding who I am and masquerading as someone I’m not. I should never be forced to abide by anyone’s standards other than my own. Anyway, they were comfortably loose-fitting pants which I wore with a long-sleeved shirt. It’s not as if I paraded in the street with a bathing suit on!

    “I didn’t realize that I mentioned in my post that I look down on people who have different opinions.”

    So you don’t feel that a statement like “your hashkafos are SKEWED” (notice the capital letters you put in to emphasize the enormity of my supposed error) consitutes you looking down on me for having a different opinion from you?

    For everybody who’s trying to bring in Chukas HaGoyim, think about where black hats came from first.

    Moderator, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about and writing this post, and I respectfully ask you to close this thread if you’re not going to publish it. I deserve the opportunity to defend myself against those who are challenging me, and if you’re not going to give me that opportunity, then at least prevent them from issuing further challenges which I will be similarly unable to answer.

    __________________________________

    NOTE FROM YW-MODERATOR: please have patience, when extremely long posts are presented on a newsday as busy as today, it may take longer to see it appear in the thread.

    #1077763

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    i’m kinda new around here, & i just don’t get the joseph obsession. can you enlighten me on why you all are so obseesed? thnx

    #1077764

    Will Hill
    Participant

    JF2:

    You fail to grasp that as much as you would like otherwise, the views you espouse fall outside the daled amos of Torah Yiddishkeit. Your long post above makes this abundantly clear.

    This site (YWN) falls squarely withing Torah Judaism, and hence you should not be so surprised that your comments raise so many red flags.

    #1077765

    000646
    Participant

    Will Hill,

    As you do not have the intellectual honesty to admit on the thread (and probably to yourself also) when you have been proven wrong (as in the thred about girls learning)

    and you also probably have no logical reason to beleive what you do beleive

    it would do you good not to talk down to peopole who at least actualy think about what they are doing and why they are doing it (as it is apparent j fem does.)

    even if the rabbonim who it makes the most sense to you to follow or that you brought up to follow (those are the only 2 reasons you can hold as you do) would disagree with what she may be saying.

    #1077766

    000646
    Participant

    Will Hill,

    If i am wrong and you are thought out then please answer how you KNOW that j fem’s ideas are not what Hashem wants (or that they are “outside the daled ammos of torah yiddishkeit”)

    #1077767

    favish
    Member

    will hill..a step further, if its without torah its not judaism. there is no such thing as torah judaism and other judaism. is chri..ianity judaism for that was one of the first ‘reform ‘ movements against torah..? so what jf2 is practicing is not judaism but her own thing what she feels comfortable with. we dont have our own ‘narrow views’, judaism is what the riboni shel oilom gave on har sini which consists of the torah s’beksav and its explantion which consist of torah s’bal peh codified in arba chelkai shulchen urech. also the term ‘live and let live’ is against one of the 613 mitzvas of the torah.also when one ,lets say , decides to cook on shabbos because fresh cooked food tastes better then one left on ‘shabbos blec’ and decides to do because of ‘onek shabbos’ according to jf2 its alright,no diff. than one drives car so can go to shul. by the way if you dont believe in torah she bal peh there is no torah,and nothing to worry about .where is it mentioned not to cook, bake, sow, reap ,any of the 39 melochos,why go rosh hashana to shul, blow shofar where in the torah is it mentioned to blow shofar on R.H. maybe ‘teriah’ means with clarinet. do you eat only kosher slaughtered animals? why? where in the torah is it mentioned the ‘5 hilchos shichte’ and whats called treifa ’18 trifos’. no where in the torah is it mentioned one may not eat,only torah shebal peh. ‘vinesem es nafshsaychem’ maybe means you should bang your head in the wall etc etc.

    #1077768

    Will Hill
    Participant

    000:

    You, and the other maskilim’s, tried & failed ideas have long ago been proven wrong. Yet your idealoges continue to think there right, despite all logic and evidence proving otherwise.

    #1077769

    Jent1150, if you believe that I am not practicing Judaism then I have nothing more to say to you. Why should I argue with someone who won’t even give me the respect of acknowledging my place in Am Yisrael?

    #1077772

    000646
    Participant

    Will Hill,

    please list some of the proofs that i am wrong, since you say i have been proven wrong.

    #1077774

    Every person as long as they believe that they are doing the best they can be in the circumstances they are in, and then Kol Hakavod. You have to be honest with yourself. The Yetzer Horah is strong. We live and aim to grow and to become better people each person according to his matzav. I once heard a mashal that we are all on ladders, every person starts though on a different rung, the greatness is not how high you are, since everyone starts out at a different point on the ladder. So then what is greatness, greatness is how many rungs you’ve climbed…

    #1077775

    000646
    Participant

    Will Hill,

    You claim all logic and proofs show that i am wrong, can you please list some of those proofs and explain some of your logic that proves me wrong?

    #1077779

    favish
    Member

    JF2..to be oiver an avairah so one can do other mitzvos..is assur min hatorah.and doesnt matter howmany hundreds of mitzvos one can do by being oiver 1 avairah. regarding the yesod hayesodos of judaism see igros moshe ohr hachaim simen 44 (?)

    #1077780

    favish
    Member

    ps that is ‘igros moshe ohr hachaim chelek 4’ ,by the way, its a tsuvah about the femminist movement

    #1077783

    oomis
    Participant

    “The point is not to be flashy, and slits are! It is so easy to make a kickpleat there is really no excuse for a slit. Someone told me that her usband is reallt unobservant but one thing he said that he really finds flashy is slingback shoes. Especially when the tight are a different color than the shoe. I can really understand that. Woman dont have as many Mitzvos as men, lets keep ours sacred”

    Just because there are people who subjectively believe slits to be flashy, does not make them right. There are people who think the color purple is flashy. And maybe women should not wear gold jewelry — that is WAY more flashy and attention getting. Oh wait, the women of dor hamidbar ( a higher madreiga than any of us will ever reachg, I am taught) all wore gold jewelry, earrings, bracelets, necklaces, NOSE rings (imagine a bas Yisroel doing that today!), and we know taht because they were lauded for not wanting to give up their jewelry for the aigel hazahav. If your friend’s husband thinks slingback shoes are flashy, that is HIS issue with the shoes. I find the very high heels that our FRUMMEST kallah maydlach are wearing are extremely problematic (not to mention sakanas nefashos to wear them, as more accidents and falls occur in women wearing them than other types of shoes). ANYTHING can be argued as being flashy. You want to know what calls attention to me? When I see a kallah wearing a deck tichel to the chuppah. Would you think I am right or wrong to be bothered by that sight? Everything is a matter of one’s personal perspective. And that includes many of the rabbonim of today. I had a rabbi tell me nail polish is assur.

    #1077784

    000646
    Participant

    Jent,

    you completley missed the point,

    if j-fem has another rabbi (modern orthodox or otherwise) who argues on R Moshe you have no way of knowing wich one is correct it is only your (or your rabbi’s) OPINION that he (R’ Moshe) is correct.

    You cannot look down on or blame someone who disagrees with this opinion the same way you woldnt look down on someone who disagrees with your opinion on what is considerd good food ect.

    #1077785

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Jent – jfem was NOT saying that its ok to do those things, just that she accepts what others do.

    There is a list of “acceptable” halacha to break in the orthodox community – this includes stealing (like tax evasion), cheating on your wife (so long as nobody knows), hordes of lashon hara…basically, as long as it can be hidden its ok. People just dont like when people can see what you are doing wrong. So tax evasion is ok, but driving to shul on shabbos is not.

    Now I am NOT saying that any of these things are actually ok. But just because someone does not drive to shul on shabbos doesnt make them a better Jew than someone who does. We dont know what tips the scale.

    #1077788

    intellegent
    Member

    SJSinNYC,

    What makes you think that all those things mentioned are “acceptable” in the orthodox community? Did you ever hear of a Yetzer Hara? As far as I know, most people I know have got one. The problem is that most people know that and try to work on themselves, but if someone has an ideology against the Torah, what will make them work on themselves?

    Yes, I speak Lashon Hara unfortunately, but I also learn the sefer shmiras halashon every night and am trying to work on myself but if someone drives on shabbos and thinks that they are doing a good thing because they are going to shul, they are wrong.

    No one is saying that someone who drives on shabbos is a worse Jew, but they are definitely mis-guided. We may not judge them (who knows where any of us would be had we grown up in a different situation) but we cannot accept their views as being correct at all. If it is against the Torah it is unacceptable.

    #1077790

    The Big One
    Participant

    Jent is exactly correct. A Reform “rabbi” (or a so-called “orthodox” one that talks like a reformer) has NO validity. Sorry to have to say it so bluntly, but it is as simple as that.

    #1077791

    The Big One
    Participant

    “But just because someone does not drive to shul on shabbos doesnt make them a better Jew than someone who does.”

    That is laughable. Someone who drives to shul on Shabbos is oiver Shabbos M’daraisa.

    #1077793

    oomis1105, It is very hard to have such a public forum on Tznius since everyone comes from different backgrounds where different things are accepted. One person could be wearing something that she finds very tzniusdig, while someone from someplace else can think that that person looks rather unrefined. Even is the same town you can have 2 different schools with completely different tznius gedarim.

    In general, a lot of Tznius gedarim are a matter of sensitivity, if u have that sensitivity Kol Hakavod, if you are careful to project an image of a true Bas Yisroel no matter what today’s styles are, Ashrecha! If u don’t, certainly don’t mock someone that does. Respect them and hope that one day u will reach that level.

    #1077794

    heimesheyid
    Member

    Mrs. B, I agree that in such a public forum how can one person say “dont wear…” I mean I am from BP, the styles u see in some of our neighboring communities would not be acceptable in my neighborhood.

    It’s very important though not to look down upon those that are not on ur level of tznius. In fact by being friendly and warm to EVERYONE, u r actually encouraging them to dress and behave in the modest way that u do.

    #1077796

    oomis
    Participant

    “In general, a lot of Tznius gedarim are a matter of sensitivity, if u have that sensitivity Kol Hakavod, if you are careful to project an image of a true Bas Yisroel no matter what today’s styles are, Ashrecha! If u don’t, certainly don’t mock someone that does. Respect them and hope that one day u will reach that level. “

    You just made my point for me. Do not mock someone who also is reflective of the style of a BAs Yisroel ACCORDING TO THE HALACHA, though it may not be your own concept of what that style ought to be. And above all, no one should hold himself or herself higher because they choose to adopt a more stringent view of something that is already muttar. Sensitivity is a two-way street. Just remember that Muslims think that women should be covered from head to toe. If they could find a way to cover the eyes

    without having the women walking blindly, they would do that, too, probably.

    #1077797

    oomis
    Participant

    ” In fact by being friendly and warm to EVERYONE, u r actually encouraging them to dress and behave in the modest way that u do. “

    I agree that one should be warm and friendly to everyone. But I also think some people need to lose the attitude that ONLY their level of tznius is acceptable and that somehow we are in need of being “fixed” by them and brought ot a higher level. I dress in long sleeves, long skirts, non-flashy colors,nothing too tight. So if I wear cap sleeves under a long sleeve shirt, or a slit at the bottom of my skirt, that makes people who don’t do so on a higher madreiga? Please. that type of thinking is extremely divisive in the frum world. We need more achdus, not more harchaka.

    #1077798

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    I just got on here and I know I’m cropping up in middle of an (obviously!) animated discussion. But one quick question. (even though I have a million comments and questions)

    What genius has the chutzpa to argue a Rav Moshe?!?!?! It’s not like it’s even in the name of another gadol. At least name a source if you want to be taken seriously!

    #1077799

    000646
    Participant

    Brooklyn 19,

    Think about what you are saying, are you saying nobody ever argues on R’moshe? thats simply not true and i think you probably know that.

    besides for the many times that other chareidei gedolim disagree with him on some issues,

    there are probably thousands of modern orthodox rabbis who argue on alot of what he says

    you may be of the opinion that those rabbis arn’t as big as R’ moshe or you may value R’ moshe’s opinion over theres wich is fine, but if somone disagrees with that opinion there is really no way you can say that you know they are wrong or even look down or be offended that they disagree with you.

    #1077800

    Yanky55
    Member

    Jfem02- I noticed you used the expression “(sic)” a number of times.

    Do you really think those who post here and can barely spell an English word would know what that means?

    #1077801

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    000646 –

    how many people are on the level to argue with a someone like rav moshe? intellectually? not so many, but you might find a select few. however, to argue with a man like that you can’t just be a genius. you have to be a gadol.

    maybe i’m being closed minded but i’m gonna say this anyway: i don’t believe there are any modern orthodox rabbis that are up to disagreeing with rav moshe. not that they aren’t smart or knowledgeable, but they’re definately missing something. you can’t even compare.

    and besides, i said if someone’s gonna try to argue, at least bring a source. cuz no one on this site is great enough for their personal opinion, that’s for sure.

    #1077802

    000646
    Participant

    Brooklyn 19,

    Do you have ANY proofs that there are no modern orthodox rabbis (or any other type of rabbis for that matter) who are up to disagreeing with R’ moshe? if you do please list them and we can discuss them,

    if not you are just stating an opinion that isnt even backed up by anything (wich you are of course entitled to do however you cannot blame anyone for thinking otherwise)

    #1077803

    abcd
    Participant

    Do you know what the definition of a good jew is?

    One who is trying to be a better jew!

    Why are we judging people? Every person is responsible to do the best that s/he can. We don’t know who’s the “better” jew.

    #1077804

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    but what does “trying to be a better jew mean?” it means being a torah jew! and a torah jew keeps mitzvos to the BEST OF HIS/HER ABILITY!

    #1077805

    I just wanted to first tell the “Queen of persia”, that I really respect her for coming on line and asking advice. Hashem sees all efforts, I havent read until the end of the posts, however, I hope your son is in Yeshiva or where ever he should be. I once had a friend that had a teenager home, out of school for a week or so. She was making a very big effort to get her in school. However, I told her not to let her stay at home, that she should take her to the gym, the park, to volunteer somewhere or whatever. It is very depressing to be at home. I am sure you are doing all you can.I just wanted to say it just in case! I dont mean to add to your pain G-d forbid. I once had to change schools with my kids, it is a very trying time. I wish you much peace and happiness and nachus!

    #1077808

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Intellegent, if certain things were not acceptable, “cash businesses” would not be allowed. As a general rule, orthodoxy has decided whats “acceptable.” I am not saying everyone finds these things acceptable but the communities will accept them. You dont see people in cash businesses being put in charem for stealing from the government (and thus all of Americans). But I bet if a frum person started driving to shul there would be some serious repercussions. Hypocrisy is part of how ALL religions are practiced. Also, I dont think anyone here said driving to shul is CORRECT, just that its not really for us to judge.

    The Big One – I stand by my statement that “But just because someone does not drive to shul on shabbos doesnt make them a better Jew than someone who does.” You dont know how Hashem judges everyone. You dont know if that person driving to shul brings them closer to follow Torah Judaism. And while we dont condone breaking halacha, its not up to us to decide who is the better Jew. Obviously, the goal is 100% halacha following Jews, but some people need steps.

    #1077809

    Yanky55, probably not. But I don’t like changing quoted material, and if I quote a sentence that has a grammatical error, I like to include the (sic) so as to indicate that the mistake was made by the original poster and not by me. A couple of people here have indicated that they felt offended by this, but it’s an MLA standard practice. I’m a writer, so I have ingrained grammatical sensibilities and perfectionist standards when it comes to correct usage of language, syntax, and grammar. Just today, I was in a class on Megillat Rut and the teacher misspelled the word “protagonist” as “protaganist”. I raised my hand and politely corrected her. She shrugged and continued teaching without rewriting the word on the board. My eyes kept darting back to the word every few minutes for the rest of class. It’s just a weird personal quirk, but I get very annoyed by these things.

    Anyway, I think we are going in circles again. Abcd, I think you said it best, and I’m not going to say any more on this subject.

    #1077810

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    000646

    THAT was actually an opinion. You know what? I take it back. Let whoever wants to argue with Rav Moshe. I just hope no one gets offended when they realize they’re not taken seriously. That’s all.

    #1077811

    intellegent
    Member

    If you agree that driving to shul is wrong but aren’t judging the person. That is fine. But if someone states that she/he “accepts” that someone chooses to break halacha and accepts any way someone chooses to serve H-m, that is wrong. there is only one way to serve H-m and that is by following the Torah (which really means a bunch of ways of serving Him but all those ways have to be Torah True.)

    When you say, You dont know if that person driving to shul brings them closer to follow Torah Judaism. It doesn’t matter. You can’t do something against the Torah in order to do other Mitzvos. I still don’t say that you should judge these people. Maybe they deserve a much larger Gan Eden than someone who is supposedly very frum. who knows! But NOT because they drive on shabbos. It is despite it.

    #1077812

    000646,

    Anyone has the right to argue on Rav Moshe on halacha, but it is rather silly to do so if one hasn’t learned the entire shas, tur and shulchan oruch hundreds of times as he did. If your rabbi did, then kol hakavod! You mentioned that having a different opinion than Rav Moshe on halacha is like having a different opinion than anyone about any other topic. You are correct. A pulpit rabbi who doesn’t know shas and poskim inside out and then goes and argues on rav moshe is like a layman who once read a couple of science books walking into NASA and giving his opinion about how they should build the next space shuttle. He is free to express his opinions on the matter but nobody will take him seriously.

    #1077813

    000646
    Participant

    Charlie Brown,

    First of all are you saying that you know that none of the leaders of any other movements in klal yisroel know or knew as much as R’ Moshe?

    If you are how do you know?

    Second of all,

    There are plenty of things that arn’t clear cut as either the thing or situation may not have exsisted in the times of the shulchun oroch or gemara and we just depend on them ‘feeling’ (“Daas torah”) that this is what was meant by the torah.

    Third of all,

    by many things especialy those benogeia to science or tznius it is very possible that either they did not fully understand how the thing works or that they didnt realise the amount of evidence there is to somthing (by science things)

    or they considerd somthing to flashy or crude because in the society they were brought up in it would have been considerd to flashy or crude and it has nothing to do with knowing halacha (by tznius).

    #1077814

    000646
    Participant

    I also want make one other thing clear,

    I did NOT say “that having a different opinion than Rav Moshe on halacha is like having a different opinion than anyone about any other topic”

    I said that choosing to follow another rabbi modern orthodox or otherwise is an opinion just like any other

    #1077816

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    000646

    it’s not that they don’t know. le’havdil, the reform movement was run by brilliant men. they knew torah cold. that’s the only way they were able to thrive. would you call them gedolim?! no way! but no one ever said they were amei ha’aretz!

    le’havdil, any modern orthodox rabbi might be brilliant. and he might even know shas. but he’s still not on the same level.

    notice one thing. who are usually the ones arguing with gedolim? very often it’s the small-time rabbis. the other gedolim (who are far more competent) accept a gadol’s p’sak more easily. not that they never argue. but at least they’re better equipped.

    #1077817

    Will Hill
    Participant

    646 thinks the Reform is a valid opinion.

    #1077818

    000646
    Participant

    Brooklyn 19,

    You said: “le’havdil, any modern orthodox rabbi might be brilliant. and he might even know shas. but he’s still not on the same level”.

    On what do you base this statement, how do you determine who is on what level and how do you know wich rabbis have whatever it takes to be on a level were people should listen to them(besides for them agreeing to your outlook on how things should be.)?

    #1077819

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Intellegent, I think we are back to semantics 🙂

    When I say I “accept” someone – its that I accept that I cannot change what they are going to do. I “accept” that they will (drive to shul, run a cash business…) and I will not judge them for it. I understand that this is against halacha.

    You are wrong in one aspect though – sometimes, the end justifies the means. If the person who is driving to shul grew up conservative, and is driving to an orthodox shul to become a baal teshuva, we accept that they are breaking halacha to get closer to Torah Judaism. In fact, most rabbis encourage baalei teshuva to take it slow, which means they will still be breaking halacha.

    Why people accept the “cash business” from supposedly frum people is beyond me though. I think its time for Rabbis to take a big stand against stealing.

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