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They need to be advised not to come to shul on Shabbos if they will drive.
Chillul Shabbos is a capital offense. The penalty for violating Shabbos is death. We NEVER encourage Chillul Shabbos in order to come to shul.
Not a single kiruv worker will ever advise someone to come to shul by driving on Shabbos. CHAS V’CHALILA!! They will all advise to better stay home!
“The penalty for violating Shabbos is death.”
Not anymore. Nobody is talking about driving to shul two thousand years ago, or two thousand years from now. The topic at hand is driving to shul in today’s times, when we do not have Mashiach or a Beit Hamikdash or a Sanhedrin, and when there is no death penalty instituted for violating Shabbos. I’m not saying that it’s a less serious transgression now- of course it’s not! But please don’t use anachronisms to make your point.
I never said any kiruv Rabbi would tell them to drive to shul.
BUT! Kiruv Rabbis do recommend taking on one thing at a time and going slow. Talk to any baal teshuva and they will probably tell you that. So while no one says “Yes go out and break this halacha” they do tell baalei teshuva to start with one thing (like, trying to keep shabbos on friday night until they are comfortable with that).
Feel free to pretend to misunderstand my point, but I am sure you get it by now.
The penalty for Chillul Shabbos. Period.
Unfortunately we do not have Beis Din that can ENFORCE it today, with eidim and hasraa, but the LAW is still the same.
And ANY kiruv worker will tell EVERY Baal Teshuva (including very new) NOT TO DRIVE ON SHABBOS, and better miss minyan.
Joseph,
it depends on thne situation. I agree with you that no kiruv person would outright tell someone to drive on shabbos, and I agree also that if asked they would tell the person that its better to stay home. However if the person doesn’t ask specifically about this then I’d agree with SJSin NYC that if the person would find it hard to break from the conservative congretation he’s belonged to for years then it may be better to take it slow and not tell them right away to stop driving there. Maybe first get them comfortable keeping shabbos on friday night, then maybe dropping the saturday afternoon trip to the mall or the movies, and only then dropping the drive to the conservative temple on shabbos morning.
****”The penalty for violating Shabbos is death.”
Not anymore.*****
the penalty for violating Shabbos is death. TODAY, right now, the penalty is DEATH. certain conditions are necessary for carrying out the sentence, (b’mazid, witnesses, warning, Sanhedrin, etc) but the penalty hasnt and never will change
SJSinNYC,
We do not believe in “the end justifies the means”. That is the main point that I am trying to bring out.
I’m not discussing about a Rabbi telling a BT to take it slow. I can’t imagine it would be possible for someone to start keeping every single halacha in one day! What I mean to say is that it is wrong to think, that driving on Shabbos can be a GOOD thing. It is not (no matter what benefit can come out of it).
If you are saying the same thing as me, great! It sounded to me like you were arguing my point, but I guess I was wrong.
Intellegent, we agree 🙂 Just a semantics thing!
GOOD!
Random Question:
Who was the 13th President of the U.S.?
the one 3 before abe lincoln….one minute
ok it was millard fillmore
Next Random Question:
What was the conflict between America and Briton that triggered the War of 1812?
ujm: it was something with territory from what i remember!
000646-
The answer to your question about how to gauge who can argue on Rav Moshe, the answer is nobody in this generation. This is based on the principal of Yeridas Hadoros – We cannot argue on Rav Moshe, Rav Moshe cannot argue on an Acharon etc – this is when they can to a conclusion or a psak. The only way a rav today CAN argue on a gadol from a previous generation, is by “holding” of a psak of a different gadol or rishon/acharon who was either an equal of their generation, or was a gadol from a previous generation (and greater by the concept of yeridas hadoros – and closer to the mesora from matan torah).
That being said, if you are going by a Rav, asking details of how to follow tznius (or how your wife should) from him, and he is a G-d fearing Jew who is knowledgable in Torah (no labels or distinctions here! The ones who are not acceptable are not G-d fearing…!), then good for you, and you don’t have to argue with others about this…as long as everyone does “aseh lecha rav” and asks them, and FOLLOWS their psak!
As per the point about gold/jewelry, etc being more “showy” – I’m pretty certain the underlying point to these things is that if it’s not an eyesore by “minhag hamakom” (the accepted practice of that place) AND it is befitting a bas melech (daughter of THE king) – i.e. – not streety, shlumpy, etc….for anything beyond the basic coverage & not tight – then it fits with tznius. I believe when rabbonim say slits are assur even below the knee, their intent is that the way it attracts attention (with the peekaboo effect) is somewhat streety and not befitting a bas melech. There is no question that being covered in the basics come first. And if women are not ready to take on all the “proper” tznius beyond the basics at once (or change makom and the minhag hamakom is different and it’s too much to take on at once), you should ask the advice of your rav what to choose first and in what time frame, that you can handle, to take on more of it (just like a baal teshuva has to with mandatory mitzvos.)
Like someone else said in a earlier post, A Jew’s tachlis (job) in this world is to better themselves – no one is asking that you do too much for yourself, as long as you are “moving up”…and if some do ask too much, they have unrealistic expectations – but growing in Torah & mitzvos is trying to grow in doing what G-d wants from us…
Chazak v’Amatz!
This is a question for anyone who has a daughter who came home from seminary in June. Is your daughter recieving tzaddakah mailings addressed to her? It seems that they are getting a hold of the seminary lists. She just got one letter from a place that already spoke to her seminary while they were in Israel (at least that is what they claim). My daughter is not working, so although we are a family that gives plenty of tzaddakah (and my husband is very generous), I am mildly annoyed at this new leval of marketing their cause. Maybe soon they will send home letters to the pre 1A class, or come speak to them year after year about their cause? Sorry, I am just overwhelmed with all the appeals, mailings, phone calls….I feel guilty saying no and tossing mailings out…anybody relate?
something to do with louisiana? spanish?
Weren’t the french involved?
The British (who were at war with the French at the time) were boarding American ships and impressing their seamen
Random Question…
Was the battle of Hastings in 1066 or was it in 1066 that the battle of Hastings was?
What’s today’s date?
Who’s the president of the United States of America?
dveykus,
what you are saying is simply not true as there are plenty of cases were rishonim achronim & gedolim argue on people that were niftar hundreds of years before them.
as for somthing not befitting a bas melech that is subjective to the society you are in as i said in an earlier post
“The British (who were at war with the French at the time) were boarding American ships and impressing their seamen.”
my great great grandfather was a seaman on an american ship during those times, he said no one was very impressed with the british, he said they spoke funny.
what color was george washington’s white horse???
what year was the was of 1812 in???
who fought in the french revolution???
asdfghjkl,
Who’s buried in Grant’s tomb?
anon
that’s like asking: what’s buried in dumbledore’s grave?
(or is it?!?!)
brooklyn19,
Actually his wife, Julia Dent Grant, is buried with him.
feivel: was that a joke, or you really dont know what impressment means??
ujm: im pretty sure the war of 1812 was because of the fight over Canadian territory and the borders of the 49th parallel. no one won that war (i know that in Canadian textbooks it says that no one won, but in US textbooks, it says that the US won. lol)
anin fot this:
nice one!!!
wahington’s horse was brown cuz it slipped in the mud!!!
lol really? i had no idea. well it’s still like the dumbledore question. cuz he never got married.
do ya know all 43 us presidents???
try listing them in order!!!
we never learnt that song. my fifth grade teacher had a baby in the middle of the year 🙂
anyway, if you’re gonna include obama we’re up to 44.
ya but he aint the prez yet!!!!
Thank G-d Obama didn’t take over yet. Maybe we’ll still be lucky.
well, i did learn the song in fifth grade so here goes:
washington, adams, jefferson, madison, monroe, adams, jackson, van-buren, harrison, tylor, polk, taylor, fillmore, pierce ,buchanan, lincoln, johnson, grant, hayes, garfield, arthur, cleveland, harrison, cleveland, mckinley,roosevelt, taft, wilson, harding, coolidge,hoover, roosevelt, truman , eisenhower,kennedy, johnson,nixon, ford, carter,regan, bush, clinton, bush, and……O(y)BAMA!!
its been a while since grade 5 so if i made a mistake, please cut me some slack!!
chasid-of-hashem
nice work!!! well done!!! impressive!!!
wow it’s a good thing this site keeps us anonymous. cuz joseph would have the secret service at his tail 🙂 good job, though!
anyone got any other history questions??? history was always my favorite school subject!!!
asdfghjkl: What years did Julius Ceaser reign?
what happened on december 17th 1862?
…and don’t google it – it’s probably there!
in what state is there no speed limit whatsoever?
000646 – when they argue on some1 from before them, it’s because they have a precedent (or derech) that was set by SOMEONE in an earlier generation, so it is true. I won’t argue this with you, ask a Rav.
as far as minhag hamakom we seem to agree – just, as I said in a different post, this is decide as per derech hatorah by our rabbonim, not our immoral surroundings!
asdfghjkl
Yeah…Why was the wall of china built?
Who is the only president that ruled for 2 terms, though not consecutively?
chasid-of-Hashem: if i counted correctly (im not going thru that a second time), there are 44 presidents? (not including Obama).
asdfghjkl: so whats in ireland, do you have a government or youre controlled by the US? (isnt it Great Britain?) lol
Random Question #3:
What is the sum of the coefficients of
( [3x – 3x^2 +1]^744 ) x ( [- 3x + 3x^2 +1]^745 ) ?
Dveykus,
With all due respect what you are saying just isnt true, there are plenty of cases were gedolim of diffrent generations argue on eachother without depending on someone else.
dveykus,
you said “this is decide as per derech hatorah by our rabbonim, not our immoral surroundings!”
Then why would we assir somthing just because it is considerd to show hefkeirus or be loud & attention grabbing in the society we are in?
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