Reb Moshe on Shabbos Clocks

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  • #1469625

    laskern
    Participant

    Moderator: The order of my posts matter. You put reply 1469551 before 1469549.

    #1469647

    msh
    Participant

    I think people are missing a point, Rab Moshe on his Tshuva assurs the timer on a D’orayso, an air conditioner is a D’Rabonon, I don’t think that this is included on his reasons to be machmir.

    #1469655

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The reason why his Psak would be different today is because when you walk past a house an you hear the air conditioner go on, you don’t even assume that someone just turned it on. The factors that go into making something a Zilzul Shabbos have changed.

    #1469726

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The reason why his Psak would be different today is because when you walk past a house an you hear the air conditioner go on, you don’t even assume that someone just turned it on. The factors that go into making something a Zilzul Shabbos have changed.

    You seem to be conflating maris ayin with zilzul Shabbos.

    It’s possible that assumptions can be related to zilzul Shabbos, but Rav Moshe gives a different explanation for why timers are zilzul Shabbos (he says having melocho done automatically on Shabbos is a zilzul, and then explains why leaving food on a blech to cook is different), and nothing changed.

    #1469941

    laskern
    Participant

    DaasYochid I can truly say you are a Yochid Mumcheh.

    #1470335

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Riding in a car is biblical according Chasam Sofer for violation of resting.”

    OK, if you can show me a psak from the Chasam Sofer about cars I’ll give you all my money and be your slave forever.

    Joking aside, turning on most electrical appliances is probably a d’oraisa on Shabbos. I don’t think that’s a key point here. It sounds like the only reason timed lights were given a heter was because of the troubling, preexisting custom. I suppose you could argue that people using Shabbos clocks for other stuff has become a new troubling trend. Just to be clear though, I am not saying that.

    #1470351

    laskern
    Participant

    I agree the psak was about a steam ship where the person is being rocked. I think a car would have a similar ruling. Other poskim are matir for that reason.

    #1471047

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Moderator: The order of my posts matter. You put reply 1469551 before 1469549.”

    If the order matters, it is best to put the replies in one post. The new system orders posts based on when they were approved, unlike the previous system that did it based on when it was submitted. You can tell which were submitted earlier, even if they were approved later, since the earlier posts are assigned a lower number even if approved by a moderator later.

    #1471089

    laskern
    Participant

    Joseph, thank you for clearing up how the order is created for posts.

    #1471098

    laskern
    Participant

    DaasYochid, please explain isn’t A/C similar to cooking that once it is turned on, no action is necessary?

    #1471097

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Its possible that there is no psakfrom gadolei yisroel in the pre war/ post war era dealiing directly with AC systems given that most since very few shtieblach had central air conditioning systems. There were occasional references to fans but those don’t generally deal with whether they would be treated in the same way as lights for purposes of whether it was OK to have the shabbos goy turn them on/off. Likewie, the issue is futher complicated by whether using a programmed thermostat to turn on the AC systems would be a question o maris ayin or zilzul shabbos. Very few batei medrash/shtieblch in the Alte Heim had AC systems with thermostats so it wasn’t an issue

    #1471103

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DaasYochid, please explain isn’t A/C similar to cooking that once it is turned no action is necessary?

    Yes, that’s why I think the same way Rav Moshe assered having food cook on a timer (that’s the case in the teshuvah), he would asser a/c.

    #1471108

    laskern
    Participant

    I think the opposite that since no action is required once you put the pot on erev shabbos, you can use a timer by cooking.

    #1471113

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The use of a timer by definition means you don’t need to do an action on Shabbos. The timer does it for you, just as in amira l’akum, the non Jew does it for you.

    #1471117

    laskern
    Participant

    The Reb Moshe mentions the Nimukei Yosef in Bovo Kama that the whole action is already finished erev shabbos. It is true that Tosfas in Shabbos answers on hasroas safek that it is not considered because it will cook automatically if you don’t remove the bread from the oven.

    #1471122

    laskern
    Participant

    It is not the same the melocho is finished erev shabbos but amira leakim the action is being done on shabbos by a goy. It is true that the opposite true when putting it off which might be a melocho sh’eina tzerica legufah.

    #1471140

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    When you put a pot of food on the fire before Shabbos, the cooking process begins before Shabbos, and we view the rest as taking place on its own.

    Rav Moshe views setting it up on a timer not as if the process already, but as setting it up so that the process will begin on Shabbos.

    If you tell a non Jew before Shabbos that you want him to do melacha on Shabbos, unless you later tell him not to, the melacha will be done, yet we don’t view it as if you set the process in motion before Shabbos, we view it as being started on Shabbos.

    Rav Moshe considers a timer to be in the same category.

    #1471149

    laskern
    Participant

    Sorry, Why does he mention the Nemukei Yosef where the action is considered finished erev shabbos?

    #1471152

    laskern
    Participant

    Reb Moshe compares cooking to the Nemukei Yosef different than anything else, why?

    #1471182

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Reb Moshe compares cooking to the Nemukei Yosef different than anything else, why?

    I don’t understand what you are asking.

    #1471198

    laskern
    Participant

    I get the impression that by cooking where no action is involved it is permitted to use a shabbos clock but not by anything else besides putting on a light.

    #1471218

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I get the impression that by cooking where no action is involved it is permitted to use a shabbos clock but not by anything else besides putting on a light.

    If you’re getting the impression that that’s what Rav Moshe is saying, you’re getting the wrong impression.

    #1471258

    laskern
    Participant

    I told you that you are a Yochid Mumcheh. I did not read the whole Teshuva so I jumped to conclusions.

    #1471260

    laskern
    Participant

    There are others who are matir. I think the difference is that a goy has a mind doing it, even if told erev shabbos, on shabbos for the benefit of a Jew, whereas a shabbos clock has no mind.

    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by  laskern.
    #1471279

    laskern
    Participant

    The isur is not the goy doing a melochoh on shabbos because he can do it for his own benefit, but doing a melochoh for the benefit of a Jew.

    #1471304

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Why is a timer different then a thermostat in a fridge,oven,ac,heating, hot plate, crock pot. Both dont have thier own minds yet we are only concerned with only a timer, even though both are going off and on at different intervals.

    #1472298

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Why are people mixng up zilzu shabbos with chillul shabbos d’orysa?

    #1472331

    Joseph
    Participant

    Zilzul Shabbos is chopped liver?

    #1472354

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why is a timer different then a thermostat in a fridge,oven,ac,heating, hot plate, crock pot. Both dont have thier own minds yet we are only concerned with only a timer, even though both are going off and on at different intervals.

    Good question, but I think the appliances cycling on and off is considered part of the running of the appliance, which started before Shabbos, but when a timer activates, it’s viewed as the appliance being turned on on Shabbos.

    Why are people mixng up zilzu shabbos with chillul shabbos d’orysa?

    Who? Where?

    #1472352

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Chopped liver is oneg Shabbos, not zilzul Shabbos.

    #1472360

    laskern
    Participant

    DaasYochid, Does my distinction (chiluk) between amira leakum and a shabbos clock make sense?

    #1472621

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Good question, but I think the appliances cycling on and off is considered part of the running of the appliance, which started before Shabbos, but when a timer activates, it’s viewed as the appliance being turned on on Shabbos.
    ——————-
    Are u saying this as accepted in halachach or is this your personal sevara?

    #1472738

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Are u saying this as accepted in halachach or is this your personal sevara?

    The generally accepted halachah is to permit Shabbos clocks; I am saying what I think is a simple distinction which even R’ Moshe, who assers Shabbos clocks, would agree with.

    It’s clear that R’ Moshe didn’t have a problem with having a refrigerator on on Shabbos. If the normal cycling on and off of an appliance were the same as a timer, he would not have allowed it, as the compressor cycles on and off.

    You can call it my sevara if you wish, but I think it’s a simple and clear distinction, and not really a chiddush.

    #1472791

    laskern
    Participant

    There is an accepted psak to open a refrigerator only when the fan is going.

    #1472914

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Svara of Reb Moshe that you can run a factory is not original. The Gemara refers to this as Avsha Milsa. This is not Maris Ayin. It is Zilzul Shabbos due to the fact that an overt Melacha is happening. We don’t care about Shvisas Keilim but something that we see as a Melacha is Zilzul Shabbos.

    Therefore, this situation can and did change regarding air conditioners. Having a timer run a drill is Zilzul but having a timer or thermostat run an air-conditioner is just as good as leaving it on.

    This is why I said that you don’t even assume someone turned it on. I’m speaking about a weekday. The sound of an air conditioner going on is not anymore the sound of Melacha.

    #1472956

    laskern
    Participant

    Halevi, you are correct. See the Misneh Berurah 252:48 about starting to mill before shabbos.

    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by  laskern.
    #1472937

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    HaLeivi: You’re saying in Reb Moshe’s time AC units either stayed on or stayed off (ie. they didn’t turn on and off with the temperature)?

    Is this actually true though? I thought he had specific psaks about letting hot air in near a thermostat AC, but I might be totally wrong; I’m not learned in this area.

    #1473010

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Neville, actually in my own childhood, IIRC, air conditioners didn’t completely shut off. The thermostat controlled the compressor.

    #1473004

    Joseph
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, Rav Moshe’s teshuva on Shabbos Clocks (timers) doesn’t mention anything about air conditioners. So how’s your point correct?

    #1473042

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Joseph, would you mind elaborating?

    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by  YW Moderator-100.
    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by  HaLeiVi. Reason: spelling
    #1473323

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    would you mind elaborating?

    Read Rav Moshe’s teshuvah. He doesn’t actually talk about air conditioners at all, and doesn’t mention noise at all.

    So to start talking about how air conditioners changed, or the sound of an air conditioner, completely misses the point.

    #1473390

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I didn’t speak of any noise.

    You are going through contortions to different bridge between a timer and a thermostat. Well, the difference is clear. It all has to do with the beholder. An I watching Melachah going on by itself or a Keili that’s left on.

    Soaking dyes over Shabbos can also be a factory in operation. However, it isn’t noticed. It’s missing the Avsha Milsa aspect.

    #1473396

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Where did Rav Moshe ever mention avsha milsa? He mentioned zilusa d’Shabbos, not avsha milsa.

    And yes, the normal cycling on and off, for example, of a compressor, is a keili left on, but a timer is not. Rav Moshe clearly addresses that a timer is not an appliance left on – “שאין להחשיבו למעשיו עכשיו בערב שבת”.

    #1473393

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I didn’t speak of any noise.

    “The sound of an air conditioner going on is not anymore the sound of Melacha.”

    #1473413

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    February 20, 2018 11:42 am at 11:42 am#1472738REPLY
    DaasYochid ☕Participant
    Are u saying this as accepted in halachach or is this your personal sevara?

    The generally accepted halachah is to permit Shabbos clocks; I am saying what I think is a simple distinction which even R’ Moshe, who assers Shabbos clocks, would agree with.

    It’s clear that R’ Moshe didn’t have a problem with having a refrigerator on on Shabbos. If the normal cycling on and off of an appliance were the same as a timer, he would not have allowed it, as the compressor cycles on and off.

    You can call it my sevara if you wish, but I think it’s a simple and clear distinction, and not really a chiddush.
    ——————-
    My question wasnt whether reb moshe held that a refrigerator was or wasnt a problem. We all k ow that he was ok with it. My question was : what is the difference between a thermostat and a timer. Both are going on and off at different intervals. Both can be mechanical or electronic. The fact that one maybe manufactured with it should not make a difference.can anyone explain why a t-stat is different in halacha then a timer.

    #1473417

    GAON
    Participant

    “recall, he states that the reason to permit them for lights is that since it was customary to ask a non Jew to put on a light for Seudah Shlishis, it is not zilzul Shabbos. ”

    Daas,
    Correct. The yesod of Rav Moshe is that it has the same status as אמירה לעכו’ם and מעיקר דדינא even candles for Seudah Shlshis should have been asur, but for whatever reason the minhag was to rely on the shitas העיטור regarding candles, see Rema 376:2, therefore regarding lights the minhag is still relevant when using a clock. But anything else we have the issue of Amirah..

    #1473418

    GAON
    Participant

    Regarding the heter of turning on lights/candles mentioned by the Rema , almost all Achronim prohibit it, but still mentioned that this is what the overall custom was to rely on the עיטור See Noda BeYehuda ch 32 regarding candles on Yom Kippur at נעילה י also see ישועות יעקב סי ש”ז, תשובות כתב סופר 116 .

    #1473419

    GAON
    Participant

    The only status that can be different is if you would say some AC’s electric are only a Rabanon, that will give it a status of
    שבות דשבות במקום צער או עונג שבת
    On that there are more shitas that permit Amirah leAkum.

    #1473462

    DovidBT
    Participant

    can anyone explain why a t-stat is different in halacha then a timer.

    A thermostat can be triggered by your actions. Open door, warm air enters the room, thermostat turns on the A/C.

    #1473490

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    A thermostat can be triggered by your actions.

    That should not make a difference here.

    No, the difference is as stated above, a thermostat is part of the normal function of the appliance, which was turned on before Shabbos. A timer is the appliance being turned on on Shabbos.

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