Regarding Israel: What’s wrong with you?

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  • #1784494
    devny
    Blocked

    To those of you who back the United States’ support of Israel, yet at the same time, are hyper critical of Israel and declare it a state that has nothing to do with Judaism… what’s wrong with you?

    That’s like buying treats for your neighbor’s dog, but you hate dogs.

    #1784528
    smerel
    Participant

    I’m not so anti-Israel as the current secular population is mostly Tinokos Shnisba.

    To answer the question, however, there is a big difference between opposing Israel in a religious context and opposing it in the secular context. They have little connection or common ground.

    Religious opposition is for religious reasons. Like declaring it a state that has nothing to do with Judaism. There are very few secular people who take that position or are bothered by such a thing.

    Secular opposition to Israel is because of very one-dimensional support of the Palestinians in the Israel-Palestinian geopolitical conflict, with little concern about what will happen to everyone if the Palestinians win. There are very few frum people who take that position.

    #1784540
    Goldilocks
    Participant

    Devny: I would say it’s more like buying treats for your neighbor’s dog, while hating your neighbor.
    Some people may want the United States to support Israel, for the sake of the people living there. At the same time, they may dislike the Israeli government.
    Whether or not they are correct in disliking the Israeli government is a separate question. But at least their position does make sense.

    #1784543
    akuperma
    Participant

    There are good dreasons to favor American support of Israel, in particular that without American involvement the situation could escale into a much larger war getting many or most of the Israeli killed (as well as most of the Arabs, though that isn’t our concern). Even the most anti-zionist opponents of the current regime do not want a full scale war, and without American “keeping the lid on things” that would be the likely result.

    #1784559
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Maybe your neighbor insists it’s one breed and it’s really another.

    #1784568
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “That’s like buying treats for your neighbor’s dog, but you hate dogs.”

    A better analogy would be feeding trolls when you hate trolls

    #1784569
    chash
    Participant

    whats wrong with me is that apparently truth isn’t popular.
    I back united states support for Israel because Israel, as far as democracy goes, is a stalwart democratic nation besieged by radicals and extremists. And any democratic nation should be supported by peers.
    Furthermore i have a special place in my heart for Israelis because they are my brothers and sisters.
    However, being an observant Torah Jew, who believes in the values and adheres to the laws of the Torah (i try every day at least), i completely oppose the state of Israel. They are anti-religious, they see religiousness as backward, they blatantly disregard the dictates of the nation they claim to represent, at the same time claiming its our land given that very same authority! So yes, i”m anti – Israel. That doesn’t mean i wish them bad/harm or anything, quite the contrary! And furthermore I am anti-terrorist so by no way am i in the “pro-Palestinian” group. But to be pro Israel? they stand for nothing as far as Judaism goes that i identify with.
    So there you have it, now tell me… WHATS WRONG WITH YOU?

    #1784595
    lakewhut
    Participant

    You can do both. US Gov’t support of Israel displays their support for Jews. We have internal problems with the govt e.g. mandatory draft laws, Chillul shabbos, conversions, etc.

    #1785149
    devny
    Blocked

    Meh. Bunch o’ weak points made above.
    Bottom line, y’all are lit bonkers if y’all think you can have yo’ cake and eat it too. ‘Specially if the cake is actually dog food.

    #1785208
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Very strong point, actually. You can dislike having a secular state, but not want harm to befall Jews. It’s a very simple concept, actually.

    Sort of like feeding your neighbor’s dog so that it won’t bite you.

    #1785215
    Joseph
    Participant

    If it were attainable, the best resolution would be the peaceful dissolution of the State of Israel if the safety of the Jewish residents of the Holy Land could be secured under a post-Israel solution.

    #1785210
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “A better analogy would be feeding trolls when you hate trolls“

    😆😂😆😂😭

    That made my day!

    Thank you

    #1785327
    chash
    Participant

    So Denvy, whats weak about my point?

    #1785344
    interjection
    Participant

    “Sort of like feeding your neighbor’s dog so that it won’t bite you.”

    …. while at the same time being able to sleep better at night knowing there’s a watchdog that lives next door.

    #1785396
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    The Joseph’s of this world want to have both sides of the argument. On one hand, they maintain that Israel is a se6cular Zionist ,not a Jewish, state . Yet they complain when israel does not observe Torah and mitzvahs to their liking. If it is not a Jewish state, as you claim, why should they act as you demand?

    #1785398
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s not both sides of an argument, it’s the same argument. They don’t keep the Torah, so it’s a secular state. The reason they should act “as you demand” is because Hashem commanded, not because anyone else demanded.

    #1785404
    Joseph
    Participant

    AJ: While DY answered you cogently, as even if the state exists illegitimately they still are required to otherwise be Torah observant, see my comment four comments above your own.

    #1785412
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Devny
    If you are actually looking for an intellectual answer (I’m sorry, but I have my doubts)
    Pick up the 2014 and 2015 editions of dialogue magazine (dialoguemagazine.org) and read Rav Aahron Feldmans discussion on the matter
    If I remember correctly it starts in the first chapter of the 2014 edition and was a discussion between him and the head of a large secular jewish pro israel organization. By the end of the discussion he has the secular jew worried that he has wasted his life (Rav Aahron assured him that his work helped many and he has a large award awaiting him, but draws distinctions between supporting the people and the government)
    The 2015 edition has a letter to the editor from Rav Adlerstein and Rav Feldman’s rebuttal.

    #1785484
    devny
    Blocked

    Yawn. You guys really need to kick it up a notch.
    The only good argument made here was by ubiquitin. Well done.

    The rest of you should stop taking life so seriously. Or take it more seriously? I dunno, it could go both ways. 🙂

    #1787973
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Dear dev
    Did you forget your meds again?

    #1788403
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Kluger,

    What meds? Who said meds are taken

    #1858690
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    People could LIKE to support Israel from one sense, and fight it from another. But when both FEELINGS go to the root of what the state is, that shows they never made peace with what Israel was and still is. One should not claim strong opinions about something until they are fully aware of it’s nature. It tends to backfire. It happens all the time that Pro-Israel & Anti-Zionists have to pretzel themselves.

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