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do you think that mesivtas should have a strong secular department. how long do you think the hours should be? my opinion?
i personally think that the english department in yeshivas should be a bit strict to make sure that kids just don’t cut class all the time and such. but it shouldn’t be so long, like not more then 2 hours or so. i think that if english is too long like over 3 hours or so it causes the bochurim to give an importance to it, and it will take away alot from their learning. a bochurs mesivta years are very prime years of learning, getting a chasek to learn. if such importance is put on to secular studies, he’ll say, look, the secular world is important cuz one day i need to go to college and learning wont be so important to him. Also i think that finals in the middle of the year is a total disaster, it causes a massive amount of bitul torah. bochurim taking all their free time and c’v seder to study, it’s a bizayon hatorah. For the same reason as mentioned earlier there shouldn’t be such heavy testing, ofcourse there has to be tests but there shouldn’t be so often they shouldn’t be sooo hard, everything should just be enough for the regent (if in NY) and not more. Also the secular studies teachers should be frum people that are shomrei torah umitzvot. otherwise these apikorsim or goyim could come and put bad ideas into the kids heads. So CR what do you think
However much time you need to teach the material that you want to teach.
“For the same reason as mentioned earlier there shouldn’t be such heavy testing”
Jewish schools should have HIGHER standards, not lower standards!
“Also the secular studies teachers should be frum people that are shomrei torah umitzvot.”
The kind of model you describe will not produce shomrei torah umitzvot people who are at all competent to teach in yeshivas. You will be stuck with non-frum people and non-Jews.
I think you are touching on some very good points. It should be taken taken seriously, and not too long. If they would have more Bakovodike teachers that you can respect it would make a difference. Part of the reason Bochurim don’t take it seriously is because they see that it is not taken seriously by the Yiddish department.
April 15 is tax day
This year I had an issue with my taxes, While I used the computer Software it was giving an oddball result.
I had to manually go through my taxes and figure out what the Math was that caused this result. I also had to read the tax Book the figure out what the math was
Is doing your taxes Bitual Torah?
You need to know english and math to do the tax return. While its not hard, it does require decent education to figure it out
Yeah, I know it’s a bit ad hominem — but considering this is coming from a high schooler, I’m not surprised at all. 🙂
The Wolf
Whatever program the yeshiva has, the students should be encouraged to do their very best and be given the tool to do so (which includes qualified teachers – qualified to teach the subject matter, not qualified by religious practice) anything else and the program is a waste of time.
Unfortunately, as mother of boys who sometimes started their days as early as 6:00 A.M., the secular part of education was a challenge. First there were the boys who were not interested and disturbed the rest of the class. Two, the teacher was frustrated and sometimes dealt very negatively in handling these unruly behaved boys. Some teachers coming from Public School after a long day with different elements would take the frustrations out on these boys too.
What i did with my youngest was homeschool him. We set up a program where we had frum accredited teachers come to our house(after yeshiva hours at 9:00P.M. and Friday afternoons) to teach him all material necessary for a Regents diploma. B”H it took 2.5 years and yes his diploma is in the drawer with other documents. If in the future he does want to go into such as CPA or other field for which a diploma is needed, he has the needed diploma. The teachers who came to our house were impressed and we had others who wanted to teach other subjects as our son was the perfect student, opposite of what they were faced with in the classroom(of a yeshiva). There was no funding for this, we paid cash for the service and his old High School let him take regents through their yeshiva for which we gave a nominal donation.
Let me mention that we a a chassidic family and boys go to what is considered ultra. The Rosh Yeshiva knew about our plan and agreed as long as it did not effect his Limudei Kodesh.
I think they should have serious learning (not at all what goes on in most yeshivos today) for a shorter amount of time and let it be serious rather than for 2 hours a day and fool around most of the time. does that make sense?
HIE: If the yeshivos do not provide adequate and rigorous secular studies, and push their talmidim to master these subject through tough exams and enforcing attendance, you won’t have to worry about the high school years being a bachur’s “prime years” to learn. That bachur will be unlikely to be able to hold down a decent paying job or support his family. So his whole life will be “prime years” for learning.
Whether the english program is 4 hours or 4 minutes, it is crucial that it is taken seriously by the yeshiva as well as the students. If not, it is bittul zman, which is probably worse than bittul torah.
thats where you are mistaken. a bachur should learn what he needs to learn in order to be able to be a functioning member of society, not in order to get a diploma. where in the torah does it say that anything outside of torah is assur? werent many of our greatest personalities doctors and scientists, and quite well versed in secular knowledge? what is the difference between then and now that makes this knowledge assur? as far as i know, in order to really understand gemorah, you need at least some knowledge of math and science. it relly bothers me when people say that learning things that Hashem gave us the ability to learn and understand is bitul torah. its not like high school boys (or girls by the way) are being asked to learn philosophy and evolution.
There is a well known mesivta in brooklyn that had signifigant issues in its “afternoon program”, so much so, that the leitzanus and chutzpah carried over to the morning.
There seems to be a “double” waste going on here.
Some consider learning English a waste of time. Even if the class is actually learning something. Waste 1.
The English classes seem out of control in some cases. The students are not only not learning their English subjects but are learning to be disrespectful of their teachers. Waste 2
HIE: sounds like you want to be a “Tzadik in Peltz.” Do a little research and find out what the Tanaim, Amoraim did for a living. Hint: many of them were not “in Kollel.”
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I am guessing the HIE that keeps commenting on this thread is son, perhaps even little bro, it is definitely not pops.
Trigonometry is total nonsense. its all about fake numbers.
I’m fairly certain that people who use trigonometry in their daily occupations would disagree with you that it’s “all nonsense” and about “fake numbers.”
no one can relate to chemistry.
No one? Have you ever taken any medication? Used almost any product?
The Wolf
Trigonometry and Geometry are nonsense?
How about when your wife wants to tile the Bathroom and you need to know how many tiles to buy.
Chemistry is Nonsense?
How about if you Have Heartburn and you need relief?
(Heartburn is caused by ACID) and you neutralize ACID by using a base (Baking Soda)
chemistry and physics and mathematics are all about the World that Hashem created
biology should be also but it has been heavily infected by evolutionism
“study their heads off”?
where does THAT happen?
More often than not the boys cram for a week or two before the regents, trying to absorb a year’s worth of material in a short time.
HIE, how do you plan to support a family? Just curious.
If you plan on going to college, trig is important. It is the basis for calculus.
trigonometry will NEVER help you in life!
glad you have a plan HIE.
hatzlocha to you!
a good secular education in high school prepares you for college. it is possible to do well in college despite a crummy secular education, but a solid foundation makes college easier. It’s not so easy to play “catch up” later.
trigonometry will NEVER help you in life!
… unless you want to go into acoustics, astronomy, biology, cartography, chemistry, civil engineering, computer graphics, geophysics, crystallography, economics (in particular in analysis of financial markets), electrical engineering, electronics, land surveying and geodesy, many physical sciences, mechanical engineering, machining, medical imaging (CAT scans and ultrasound), meteorology, music theory, number theory (and hence cryptography), oceanography, optics, pharmacology, phonetics, probability theory, psychology, seismology, statistics, and visual perception, education.
The Wolf
(taken from the Wikipedia article “Uses of trigonometry.”)
the trig that is learned in high school about 0% of the high schoolers learning it know whats goin on they just know a couple facts and formulas and somehow pass the regent. mark my word, i’v spoken to many people from many yeshivos.
You didn’t speak to me. I understood trigonometry in high school.
The Wolf
HIE, you want only 2 hours of English each day, not too many tests, tests that aren’t too hard, and no mid-year finals. To me that sounds like a recipe for a crummy education.
Trigonometry will also help you trying to figure out how to put together a new peice of furniture, if you want to save money.
…as my teacher himself told us, you only need to know it for the regent, after that its useless.
And, as I’ve shown above, your teacher is dead wrong on this.
The Wolf
hie,
I agree with you but for this idea to work the teachers have to be very good and the students have to be mature and focused. So its not very practical for the masses.
“Is doing your taxes Bitual Torah?”
How can fulfilling a mitzvah be bitul torah? It is a mitzvah to pay the taxes you owe; all halachic authorities agree that it is an aspect of dina malchutcha dina!
“we were put on this world to become close to Hashem by doing his mitzvos.”
True. And many of those mitzvot require secular education. The Sanhedrin had to know seventy languages, and also astronomy and veterinary science.
“werent many of our greatest personalities doctors and scientists, and quite well versed in secular knowledge?”
Indeed. Many of the gedolim had university educations, including Rambam, Sforno, Rav Hirsch, Rav Hildesheimer, Rav Herzog, Rav Soloveitchik, the Lubavicher Rebbe….I could go on and on.
“chemistry. there is no reason the boys should have to learn this murder subject “
Rav Herzog would disagree; he earned a PhD in Chemistry at the University of London and used his knowledge to research techelit!
” its not like high school boys (or girls by the way) are being asked to learn philosophy and evolution. “
Philosophy — at least that of our greatest sages — should be taught in Limdei Chodesh! We need to teach our young people what our greatest thinkers like Rambam, Rav Hirsch, Rav Kook, and Rav Soloveitchik wrote.
“trigonometry will NEVER help you in life! “
It has been essential to my career. The Lubavicher Rebbe had to master it in order to complete his electrical engineering program.
“it pays to just learn it in college if your going for one of those majors. “
Nowadays if you want to enter one of those fields you start out way behind if you haven’t taken CALCULUS in high school, not just trigonometry. And you won’t get accepted into any engineering school without at least completing trigonometry with a good grade.
Actual line my hubby heard in a yeshivah from one of his students- “I don’t need to learn this. My parents said it is not important because when I learn in kollel my wife can work and I don’t have to.” That line as well as the low pay and principal support is the reason why yeshivahs cant hold down properly educated teachers. We both are educated and licensed to teach in public school however due to Bloomberg we cannot. If the yeshivahs want frum people they have to value them which means decent ON TIME pay and benefits.
There are children in yeshivas, who, for various reasons, are not doing well in their Torah studies. After many frustrating hours they go to their secular classes which are treated as a joke. The result; poor skills in Torah studies, poor skills in secular studies, and a prognosis for many problems later on.
charlie,
“It (trigonometry)has been essential to my career.”
Which field did you choose?
if a yeshiva is offering a secular education, it should be done in a serious manner. the teachers should know their subject matter and be capable of teaching it. the boys should know that they are expected to behave and to pay attention, and that if they put in the necessary time studying, they will likely get decent grades.
HIE, are we on the same page?
by the way, if bittul Torah is a big concern of yours, what are doing here?
“If the yeshivahs want frum people they have to value them which means decent ON TIME pay and benefits.”
Given that paying your workers on time is a mitzvah written explicitly in the Torah, one might have thought that we would be particularly makpid about keeping it. But no, we are just like the heterodox in that we pick and choose which mitzvot can be ignored. They say that keeping kosher is optional, we say that keeping financial halachah is optional.
“Which field did you choose?”
Biostatistics. Calculus was and is essential, and trigonometry is essential for calculus.
HIE
Your opinion is rife with grammatical errors!! That is what happens when you lack a proper secular education. ALL of us, male and female should have basic reading, math and communication skills. With these skills we will have many options when determining our means of parnassa. It is not bitul Torah to be able to support one’s family; to be active in the community “l’ztorchei tzibbur” and not come across as an ignoramus. I might also suggest some classes in common courtesy.
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