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I was wondering, why we dont seem to find any reference about self esteem in sifreiy mussar? It seems like the depth of this issue has surfaced in the last generation, maybe because ppl were more individual? Maybe cuz they had bitachon? have any of u real ppl out there though abot this?
holy brother
Actually the entire approach of the Alter of Slabodka, Gadlus Haadam was based on building up our self esteem.
hmmm…i know gadlus ha’adam isn’t self esteem…but its close…and self worth is discussed i believe…again not self esteem per se, but close enough
Isnt the point of mussar to break you down?
I asked several of my friends about this, and it appears that the concept of “self” is just not something jews really specialize in in and of itself. We are always part of something bigger (family, klal, ect) so everything gets tied to the something beyond your own personal space.
We need to be “ourselves”, but we are never “selfish”.
Maybe it is because being a Jew and having pride in who you are is a good foundation for self esteem. And maybe for generations the biggest factor in chinuch and in raising children was building self esteem without having to label it. I think the system has failed today’s generation and the error’s of its ways has finally come to roost and a lack of self esteem is only one of today’s problems.
Holy Brother
I think that self esteem comes automatically from learning mussar and working on oneself. The better person you are the more self esteem you will have.
You have a point, Holy Brother. But why, then is there no word or phrase in loshon kodesh (not ivrit, loshon kodesh) for the concept? I’m not trying to negate the concept; its just the word “esteem” is not one we usualy link to people.
And by the way, is your tag “holy brother” indicitive of your Carlebach leanings? If so, you are indeed a holy brother!
Maybe the sense of self was implicit.
Take v’ahavta l’reaicha kamocha. You can’t love another person unless you love yourself.
Rav Hirsch in Pirkei Avos, 5:13 (4 types of people, one who says what’s yours is mine, etc.) says that one can’t give unless one owns the object to begin with. There has to be a sense of ownership, discreteness in Jewish life.
Then again, as Rebbetzin Heller says, our bubbes didn’t stand by the river doing the laundry asking each other if they were self-actualized (and you can read Zalman’s Menorah to see just how hard life was for the whole typical family). We were too busy trying to survive! But there were other periods of plenty and discretionary time before ours. Maybe there are some writings from those tekufos to cull from.
Doesn’t the concept of v’ahavta l’rayacha kamocha speak to issues involving self esteem as well as esteem of others?
holy brother
No I mean the act of working on oneself, changing and becoming a better person will give a person more self esteem.
Heres something to boost all of our self esteems’
Modeh Ani: Chasam Sofer – Because Hashem Believes In You!
Day after day we struggle through our challenges. A bracha here, a favor there, making time for Torah, a kind word, restraining from Lashon Hara, and on and on with and all the daily challenges we face. Some days are better than others but we are far from angels. Night after night our tarnished Neshamos go up to Shamayim showing off our daily mitzvos but also in need of a good cleansing from the dirt that accumulated that day.
Our bodies lie lifeless in our beds each morning waiting for Hashem to return our refreshed and clean Neshama to us and give us a new day of life. But why should He? Are we so fantastic that Hashem owes it to us for what we have done for Him? No. Did we do something in the past that proves that we are up to today’s challenges and will do Hashem proud without causing Him any anguish? Probably not.
Well, Hashem see things otherwise. The last two words of Modeh Ani are Rabba Emunasecha. This is normally translated to mean that our faith in Hashem is great and we are confident that He will give us another day of life, regardless of the score. However points out the Chasam Sofer, Emunasecha may not be the correct word for that context. Instead he offers a mind boggling and encouraging thought that should give us the Chizzuk and strength to truly make this day a great one. Rabba Emunasecha means “Your faith” is great. We are granted another extension on our visa in this world because Hashem believes in us. He knows we can come through today and He is willing to bet another day of life to prove it. If Hashem believes it, it must be true. No more excuses, our days can all be perfect!
From Revach.net
Because if someone is sick he goes to the doctor, not a Mussar Sefer.
I do think we are more afflicted these days with emotional problems then in the past, but there was always someone there to speak your problems over with. There is a concept mentioned in the Rishonim and later, called Marra Sh’chora. Literaly it would translate as depression, but it is not limited to that. The Rambam and others, when discussing Midos, do mention that Anivus should not take you to Shiflus.
HaLeivi
Because if someone is sick he goes to the doctor, not a Mussar Sefer.
Where did that come from?
Where did that come from?
He’s saying (I believe) that depression is a physical/mental ailment and not a spiritual one.
The Wolf (who’s really not qualified to discuss anything in this thread at all)
WolfishMusings
He’s saying (I believe) that depression is a physical/mental ailment and not a spiritual one.
There are 2 types of depression. One that is a mental condition due to some inborn mental imbalance, and a depression that comes from the way a person is living their life.
The depression that comes of living an unfulfilled life is a spiritual depression that requires a spiritual awakening inside the person.
A Rabbi and some mussar seforim can heal a spiritual depression.
Right, and I’m sure you’d agree that the Shaarei Teshuva would be the wrong place to look for bipolar treatment.
There are 2 types of depression. One that
Yeah, well… like I said, I’m not qualified to talk about anything in a thread about self-esteem… so forget I said anything.
The Wolf
The point of Sifrei Yir’a is to let you know what the right attitudes are. Few Sefarim give actual tactical advice of how to be able to overcome certain things. And even then, by todays standards, it’s not helpfull enough. We need speakers that can make jokes and tell stories. Most often, the Sefarim are convincing you that you should work on these things.
They speak about Simcha and can even tell you what to happy about, but they don’t make you happy. If someone has a problem with himself and can’t control certain things, he shouldn’t open the Sefer for a remedy, he should consult someone who can help him.
WolfishMusings
When you say stuff like “I’m not qualified to talk about anything in a thread about self-esteem… so forget I said anything.”
When you say things like that it really makes me want to talk some sense into you. I dont know if you really have a low self esteem or not, but if you do, your self esteem can grow by working on it. Read the dvar Torah that I brought above from the Chasam Sofer, Hashem believes in you, how dare you not believe in you?!
If Hashem gave you life that means He knows that you can be great and do great things. For those who have no purpose left to accomplish they are taken from this world. You have greatness inside you and Hashem today has given you the opportunity to grow and polish yourself and reveal more of that greatness to yourself, to your family and to those you come in contact with.
your gotta beleive in your self there is nothing wrong and if you beleive in yourself you’ll beleive in others and in your children.there is a saying “mind over matter” it’s all in your mind and if your phrase it right it will be given over right,it’s not considered being a big shot. good luck to you all it aint at all easy.
wiy- yes you said it well and wolf- come on get a grip be proud of yourself and others will see what good qualities you have.its important in life in order to function right to have a right attitute, and then,you’ll see you’ll be matzliach.
Joining the bandwagon:
Wolf, if you really do have a low self esteem, it is a puzzle. Just from your posts, we can tell that you are intelligent, thought out, have alot of common sense and a straight head, have a stable job and contribute to your business’ value. You actually stick up for your positions. You do believe that you are at least up to par with anyone here that you converse with. How do you reconcile all that. Perhaps you are just thinking about yourself too much. What’s the difference what you are, be happy and look ahead.
One of the Slonimer Rebbes said that you should look at yourself as a fly amongst flies. Perhaps you’re something, perhaps you’re nothing; what’s the difference.
As far as your Neshama is concerned, you obviously agree that it is holy and your job is holy. Use that as a pride amongst the nations. Even if you feel that you are far from fulfilling your purpose, there is no reason for feeling down or below that. Look ahead and plan ahead. If you don’t like what happened until now, focus ahead. If this situation repeated itself many times, so what? Doesn’t the Gemara say Ad Me’a Pe’amim? Besides, perhaps the reason you don’t feel satisfied is actually a product of a hidden Ga’ava! You set a goal for yourself that is farther than realistic. If that is the case, don’t grump saying, see, I’m a failure; change it.
Yeeesh… I didn’t mean for this thread to turn into this.
I greatly appreciate your thoughts, everyone. It’s just something I deal with from time to time. Like most people I have my good days and my bad days… and I have things that set me off and turn good days to bad days (and vice versa).
How about returning the conversation back to its original topic?
The Wolf
When I read Wolfishmusings’ comment the first thing I got was HE IS JOKING!
I never derived from that he really suffers from low self esteem! From his posts its obvious he is self confident, calm and composed even on highly neurotic topics, at times.
Anyhow, can anyone here really claim they are fully esteemed in their own self image? At least he was being honest. WE need to weigh ourselves at times, and do an honest check.
Holy brother, as for why we didn’t hear much about self esteem “way back” was because if you are following the commandments asked of you, plus extras like Sefer Orchas Tzaddikim and working consciously on middos, etc, you will naturally have a positive self image of the good person you have become.
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