November 29, 2017 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1415440
You could ask the same question about shelo asani goy or shelo asani eved.November 29, 2017 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1415470
I can’t believe that last time I read this thread, I missed Popa’s post about atheists.November 29, 2017 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1415473
Yes if an isha is “sheasani kirzono” – negative, so the ish, in order to be negative like the isha, should say “shelo asani kirzono” … tongue in cheek, of course.November 29, 2017 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #1415598
Women yenta more in 30 days then a guy does in 30 yearsNovember 29, 2017 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1415643
Bored souls nothing to talk aboutAugust 26, 2018 9:49 am at 9:49 am #1579942
Should a woman say Amein if she hears a man make the brocho of Shelo Asani Isha? If so, why?August 26, 2018 9:56 am at 9:56 am #1579992
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Just curious – why don’t you ask the question whether a Yisroel can answer amen to a Kohen’s brocha of asher kid’shsnu bik’dushaso she Aharon?August 26, 2018 10:45 am at 10:45 am #1580029
Just curious – why don’t you ask the question whether a Yisroel can answer amen to a Kohen’s brocha of asher kid’shsnu bik’dushaso she Aharon?
I dont see the connection. One is a personal bracha and one is a klall bracha.
Also why would you answer a question with s question?August 26, 2018 10:45 am at 10:45 am #1580030
It does not have to be true to the replier but they are saying that the blessing is true to the blesser.August 26, 2018 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #1580068
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I dont see the connection. One is a personal bracha and one is a klall bracha.
Why would that make a difference? Either way, it’s a bracha which the person answering amen could never say on their own, yet can still affirm someone else’s bracha.
Also why would you answer a question with s question?
Why wouldn’t I?August 26, 2018 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #1580124
According to the Mahral, men are more spiritual than women or in his words the Ish is the tzurah & the Isha is the Chomer. (this by the way is why women are more bound to the cycles of time then men are, they are more connected to the physical world than men are.) It was a modern invention of (Rabbi) Dr. Norman Lamm to say woman are more spiritual than men.
According to Chaza’l, if your going to be born then the best situation is to be born a Ish Yehudi, second is an Isha yehudis, 3rd, an eved, 4th) aino yehudi.
It’s not about who is better, it’s about who was given the most spiritual potential in this world.August 26, 2018 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #1580131
The brochos go in order of being m’chuyov more mizvos and thus being able to earn more s’char. A Goy has only 7, a slave has the same as a woman minus a few obvious ones and then is the woman.
A lady says sheosani kirtzoino. This isn’t a ‘replacement’ blessing – it’s a brocho that she is able to fulfil her life’s tachlis which is keeping the mitzvos of a woman.August 26, 2018 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1580143
Acc.to M”A 611
only men can reach level of a mal’achAugust 26, 2018 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1580262
Oy. Ladies I hope you are not offended. Anyone making denigrating belittling comments about women is simply using distortions of different mekoros and missing out on the core understanding of Torah hashkafa that learning pnimius HaTorah, as the Zohar terms it, the neshama of Torah, would provide.
It also seems that these mens wives have also possibly missed out on their education, because when a woman is educated with full hashkafa, not just be a good girl so the neighbours won’t chatter, she will clearly be the Rochel of her home, whose men clearly recognise that my Torah and your Torah belong to her. Women have always upheld the Yiddishkeit of the Jewish nation by encouraging their husbands to grow and imbuing their children with core values since they raised the Tzivos Hashem way back in Mitzrayim.
I could respond point by point or with fuller explanation but I think I already have on numerous threads so don’t see a point of repeating the same things unless someone has a specific point they want addressed. Feel free to link to the posts I have already written on men and women hashkafa wise on other threads.August 26, 2018 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1580271
Chabadshlucha, can you be so kind and specifically point out which of the above cited mekoros, if any, are “distortions”. All the ones I see are legitimate. How are the cited Torah sources “belittling” in any way?!August 26, 2018 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #1580279
According to the Kol Bo women are exempt from time dependent mitzvos because of their family obligations.August 26, 2018 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #1580282
The brocho שעשני כרצונו Hashem created me according to His will tells us that women fulfill the will of Hashem by their existence.August 27, 2018 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1580762
Laskern, that’s why the question is why don’t men say it?August 27, 2018 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1580772
We are strong proponents of double standards
Rather than washing it away for public consumption
,we should’ve offered”take or leave it”
And it goes both ways e.g.Draft
Women should definitely not be drafted into army, especially in the Jewish Land of Yisrael. This just proves how brainwashed people have become who don’t the basic laws and traditions of our Torah and our heritage
For the male draft on the other hand
it is more blurredAugust 27, 2018 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1580834
Hashem created this world not for his benefit, but for ours. He shares his wealth with all of us wanting that we should do the same. Hilel says אם אין אני לי מי לי if I am not for myself who is כשאני לעצמי מה אני but if I am only for mysellf what am I. The purpose of a man is to work on himself and then on others. If he doesn’t follow this, it would be better if he would never be born because he doesn’t follow the purpose of creation. His existence does not necessarily satisfy the the purpose of creation. The women were created to be a partner to the men satisfying their purpose by their existence. The brocho of the women is not appropriate for the men. The women’s main purpose is to build a family.August 28, 2018 7:33 am at 7:33 am #1580950
The secular world believes men & women are equal in all ways & anyone disagreeing is a misogynist. Torah Jews are not misogynist but believe there are clearly different life roles for men & women. Adam was the main creation of “man” while Chava was to be his helper. Together, they are complete & ready to fulfill their life’s mission of connecting to Hashem.
The feminists have denigrated the role of Chava as the child bearer so they gave women the role of Adam. Frum women are proud of their special role & are equal partners in their accomplishments together.August 28, 2018 7:33 am at 7:33 am #1580932
“I think R’ Moshe is learning (and the lashon of the Rambam sounds this way) that the added kedushah is not b’etzem, it’s a product of the extra chiyuvim. Kohanim, OTOH, have their extra mitzvos because of the higher level of kedushah.”
I don’t think that’s correct. R’ Moshe says explicity the opposite of that. See here:
“The mitzvah of You shall be holy, which is followed by a recitation of several of the fundamental mitzvos, is not of the same type as the mitzvos that follow it. This mitzvah means that every Jew should realize that he is sanctified with the holiness of the Jew, and it is only because of that holiness that we were given the Torah and obligated to do the mitzvos. As I have often written, mitzvos cannot be fulfilled properly unless the doer has the holiness of the Jew. The Kohanim, who have additional mitzvos, must have the particular holiness of Kohanim. This is why we make a blessing before mitzvos and say, “Who has sanctified us with His mitzvos”; and Kohanim, before doing mitzvos that are limited to Kohanim, say, “Who has sanctified us with the sanctity of Aharon.” The expression “Who has sanctified us with His mitzvos” should not be misunderstood as meaning that mitzvos are the source of the sanctity. It is self-understood that the sanctity the blessing refers to is the underlying sanctity of every Jew — that which enables us to fulfill the mitzvos.”
Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt’l, Darash Moshe, Volume II, p. 154, Vayikra, KedoshimAugust 28, 2018 7:36 am at 7:36 am #1580930
לֹּא עָשַׂני אִשָּׁה…שֶׁעָשַׂנִי כִּרְצוֹנוֹ – The Tanna Rabbi Meir instituted the recital of the ברכוֹת השחר. In Rabbi Meir’s time the study of Torah was prohibited by the Romans, who executed any man who studied it since they recognized that Torah study kept Jews from assimilating. Women on the other hand were generally spared by the Romans but were instead taken into captivity. Through instituting this blessing, Rabbi Meir expressed gratitude to God for being a man and therefore having the privilege to sanctify God’s name in death. The blessing of שׁעשׁני כרצוֹנוֹ was introduced by women in the Middle Ages, because during the Crusades men and women were massacred alike. Women now shared in the privilege of dying al kiddush Hashem, sanctifying His Name, and therefore instituted their own blessing.
(R. Isaiah Wohlgemuth, Guide to Jewish Prayer, pp. 59-60 in the addendum to the Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik Siddur. It is not clear if this is being said in the name of Rabbi Soloveitchik)August 28, 2018 8:54 am at 8:54 am #1580986
Posts like “only a man can reach the level of malach” on a thread that is about a Brocha, not about malachim, are, in my opinion a manipulation of sources and distortion of Torah hashkafa as it doesn’t provide the why, or the corresponding quality in women which makes her unsuitable to reach the level of malach (escape the world), but better suited than men to make the physical world G-dly.August 28, 2018 8:54 am at 8:54 am #1580985
If any woman (or man) is bothered or offended by any of these posts, please let me know and I’ll answer. Otherwise I think I’ve addressed it on other threads.
@haimy Hashem created Adam as one male / female figure, and blessed them as Adam. Then He separated them.
The gemara learns from this that man is not called Adam and is incomplete until he is joined with his other half, woman.
Yes we have different roles which have different qualities and which are superior in some ways and inferior in others. But one is not inherently better than the other.
Aizer knegdo does not imply that she is beneath man inherently. If anything Knegdo implies she is there to keep him in check and together they reach balance.August 28, 2018 8:54 am at 8:54 am #1580983
They are distortions because a person reading it comes away with the impression that men are everything in Yiddishkeit and women are second place, merely yentas,servants or property etc. It’s not about quoting sources necessarily, it’s about the context they are quoted in.
For example I could list ten examples of women in the Torah and portray them in this way:
1) Hashem told Avraham to listen to everything Sarah says as her nevuah was greater. This was the first Jewish woman.
2) The women were the ones in whose merit we were redeemed from Mitzrayim not the men.
3) Chana is the one we learn how to daven from.
4) the men failed by chet haegel and the women stood strong.
5) the women were the first to donate to the building of the Mishkan.
6) the women all got to go into eretz Yisrael whereas that generation of men died because they chose to believe the 10 miraglims bad report while the women trusted Moshe rabbeinu.
7) Hashem told Moshe to speak to the women first regarding Matan Torah
8) the woman makes the child Jewish
9) the chachamim preferred Chulda over Yirmiyahu because, as a woman, they hoped she would be able to invoke more raisin from Hashem regarding the churban.
10) its in the merit of the women that moshiach will come.
Great. 10 sources. Now you tell me: by reading these sources does that depict the correct roles of men and women in Yiddishkeit? Or its a distortion by lack of context?August 28, 2018 8:56 am at 8:56 am #1580928
“Haven’t heard this from anywhere, but maybe we are thanking Hashem for making us into men despite women being on a higher spiritual level.”
Women are NOT on a higher spiritual level. That’s a myth. See Maharal Tiferes Yisroel 4 and 28. He says men are on a higher level.
Of course the bigger they are the harder they fall, so you need both kinds of people.August 28, 2018 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1581119
Chabad shlucha: Adam was created first, Hashem took his rib away and made Chava from it. Chava owes her life to Adam for sharing his rib.
After Chava fed Adam from the Eta Hadaas Hashem Said “venue yimshol boch” he will rule over you. As chazal tell us “Isha kesheira oseh ritzon baalah”
A wife is meant to be subservient to her husband as his eizer.
He is to be treated as a king while he treats her as his queen.
Feminism has made us think that there are 2 kings in the home, that is a recipe for divorce. No organization has 2 ceo’s, the same goes for marriage.August 28, 2018 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1581222
Haimy, I explained the word nisuyin meaning elevation such that each partner should put the other on a pedestal.August 28, 2018 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1581225
The Shevat Sofer explains that you need disagreement to come to the true avodas Hashem. By her being knegdo she becomes an ezer avoiding tunnel vision through being able to see the other side of an argument.August 28, 2018 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1581607
“Adam was created first, Hashem took his rib away and made Chava from it.”
Yes that is true and one interpretation of “tzelah” and one chazal about the creation of woman.
The other equally valid and true chazal is the one I mentioned above (which also sheds light on other pesukim).
The first one emphasises the quality of extra tznius that was invited in women more than men. The second teaches us that although the woman’s role is the receiver, and the more private role, it is equal to the mans and one is not complete without the other. They are two halves of one whole.
“Chava owes her life to Adam for sharing his rib.”
Last I checked Hashem created them both and this was the way He chose to create her. Adam did not create her, he didn’t even help.
“After Chava fed Adam from the Eta Hadaas Hashem Said “venue yimshol boch” he will rule over you.”
Yes, that is a curse not a good thing. Do you try to fulfil the verse in Torah “Vhoyisa meshuga?” It is and has been the unfortunate reality of the golus world. But we don’t need to sanction it the same we we aren’t dying to be persecuted although that is one of the curses of golus. In fact, we do and should do our best to defeat it. Jewish men throughout history have prided themselves on treating their wives with respect UNLIKE the goyim. I’m not sure where this attitude of pride in vhu yimshol bach comes from.
As chazal tell us “Isha kesheira oseh ritzon baalah”
Yes but that is unconnected to the above. He is supposed to set the spiritual standards high in the home, and in that case, she fulfils his will as a good Jewish wife. If not, with wisdom, she can oseh, recreate, his will to be more in line with Hashems.
“A wife is meant to be subservient to her husband as his eizer. He is to be treated as a king while he treats her as his queen.”
No issue with that. It’s true and has the Torah balance. He is King and she is Queen. Not he is spiritual, a potential malach, master and she is… A yente and servant. Some posts above read that way and its a distortion of Torah values.
“Feminism has made us think that there are 2 kings in the home, that is a recipe for divorce. No organization has 2 ceo’s, the same goes for marriage.August 28, 2018 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1581620
*more rachamim (not raisins) from Hashem regarding the churban.August 28, 2018 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #1581618
“Feminism has made us think that there are 2 kings in the home, that is a recipe for divorce. No organization has 2 ceo’s, the same goes for marriage”
Agreed. To understand how vhu yimshol bach goes together in a Torah marriage with women being referred to as his other half, or plag gufa in the Zohar, it is helpful to understand the difference between the brain and heart.
Both are equally vital and important ; a person cannot survive with missing either.
However if there is a conflict between the brain and heart, like, for example with the heart desiring a sugary treat, and the brain claiming it is not good for health, then the heart should follow the brain *because that is best for BOTH of them.*
In the Jewish home, the wife is the heart. She creates the atmosphere of the home, and imbues her family and environment with the heart of Simcha, emuna, bitachon, ahavas Hashem, Yiras Hashem, ahavas yisrael etc.
The husband is the brain of the home: he gives the spiritual guidance and direction for the family.
In a case of conflict, the husband should have the final say as he is better able to make decisions that are not influenced by emotion, but it is his achrayus to show and explain to his wife how this is for her best interests as well.
This is a Torah marriage. Not a king and slave. And not two battling kings.
A man and woman are opposites, eizer knegdo and only through their opposite inclinations and influence can healthy balance be achieved. (I can give examples on their opposite attributes and how they balance each other if desired.)August 28, 2018 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1582484
Some of the major Jewish singers today have a song of “shelo asani goy”. If they came out with a song of “shelo asani isha” would that be any different/same or more or less offensive (or no different) than singing shelo asani goy? And, more importantly, why – given that they’re both brochos?August 29, 2018 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #1582903
Slominer, that is because women sing “Shelo Asani Goy” as well.August 29, 2018 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1583121
RebYidd23, good point. Singing shelo asani isha at a chasuna probably isn’t going to happen. But if Shloime Gertner, who sings shelo asani goy, sang shelo asani isha at a simchas beis hasheiva or released it on his next album or if it were sung at Yeshiva festivities or other male only functions (at a tish, Chanukah mesuba, etc.), you’d say that’s pretty much the same as singing other songs such as shelo asani goy?August 29, 2018 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1583147
“Some of the major Jewish singers today have a song of “shelo asani goy”. If they came out with a song of “shelo asani isha” would that be any different/same or more or less offensive (or no different) than singing shelo asani goy?”
It would be offensive.
“And, more importantly, why – given that they’re both brochos?”
Nothing to do with the fact that both are brachos, and everything to do with the motivations of the songwriters and singers.August 29, 2018 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1583161
Avrom, isn’t the other song/brocho similarly offensive to a goy?
Also, I question whether it is really offensive. The reason for the brocho is because they have more mitzvos. So why is it anymore offensive for the chazan to say the brocho in shul with the women saying Amein than for men to sing it as a song when women are around? Or, especially, to sing it when at a men-only function.
The motivation would be the same motivation for singing shelo asani goy. Or the motivation when saying the brocho itself and appreciating the reason Chazal instituted it.August 29, 2018 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1583185
“Avrom, isn’t the other song/brocho similarly offensive to a goy?”
Other than anti-Semites, nah.
“So why is it anymore offensive for the chazan to say the brocho in shul with the women saying Amein than for men to sing it as a song when women are around?”
Shelo asani goy I can understand as Jewish pride, but why sing shelo asani isha as a song? Male pride? That’s idiotic.August 29, 2018 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1583199
If there was a sheva mitzvos bnei noach event, shelo asani goy would be an insensitive and definitely offensive song to play despite the bnei noach knowing that we have special mitzvos and even status in Hashem’s eyes. It would be really wrong and can’t imagine it giving Hashem any nachas to say the least.
The reason why these song exist is more celebrating the Jewish life and the meaning it gives us (like in the Yiddish one Avraham fried sings.)
Its not bad middos because we only play it at Jewish events and even with the goyim there, we assume they don’t understand Yiddish and Hebrew.(And in the rare exception s/he will understand that they werent meant to understand it so no offense was meant.)
Whereas men and women are one family unit. We are not different societies, like the Essenes were, nor are we meant to be. A Jewish life is family life where men and women share their lives together. As such, a song celebrating shelo asani isha would definitely be in bad taste and middos even though we know and are not offended by the actual Bracha and the fact our men say it.August 29, 2018 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1583228
Avrom, when you quoted my comment you left off the last part. That part answers your question. (Q – Shelo asani goy I can understand as Jewish pride, but why sing shelo asani isha as a song? A – the motivation [for singing would be the same motivation as] when saying the brocho itself and appreciating the reason Chazal instituted it.)
Chabadshlucha, I also asked about it being sung at a male-only event. (I gave some examples.) Based on your comment it appears you’d see that the same as singing shelo asani goy at a Jewish-only event.August 29, 2018 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1583227
In the old days(70s)
they used to sing to the chosson
‘tan l’meisav tan du..’
she only agreed to marry him because she was
tired of being single
everyone took it in jest
to ChossonAugust 29, 2018 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1583201
Not every Bracha is meant to be celebrated and sung. Some things we emphasise some we don’t although we appreciate them and even make a Bracha for them. I think a great example is the miracle of how Hashem makes our bodily functions work. We even have a Bracha for it – asher yatzar. However as of yet, no singer has decided to make this a wedding song, and there’s a reason why… Same here.August 30, 2018 8:36 am at 8:36 am #1583338
How do you decide which brochos you celebrate and which you don’t? And how have you decided in these examples that one you celebrate and the other not?
If it is a brocho why not celebrate all? Even the asher yotzer example is something certainly worthy of celebrating for that great kindness Hashem bestows upon us everyday. Every brocho is worthy of celebrating and singing Hashem’s praises about.August 30, 2018 8:36 am at 8:36 am #1583339
<<Not every Bracha is meant to be celebrated and sung.>>
agreed, the tur says on the bracha c’ritzonoh that its signfies that the woman “accepts a din ra’ah alehah”. Let’s just translate that as a difficult decree.August 30, 2018 8:38 am at 8:38 am #1583325
<<They are distortions because a person reading it comes away with the impression that men are everything in Yiddishkeit and women are second place, merely yentas,servants or property etc >>
Careful now not to bring it the other way. That’s not acceptable either. As to your points:
We don’t learn to daven from Chana. We learn to daven outloud from her. The Avos set up the davening and much of the siddur is from Dovid. The Amidah is from the Anshe Keneset HaGadol.
The merit of the women is one of the reasons we were redeemed from Egypt. The Midrash lists many others including the suffering of the children who the Egyptians buried alive in stone walls, to not changing our language and dress, etc. They are all reasons for the redemption says the parush marazo
The men failed by chet hagel because the men fly higher than the women. If you fly high you can fall. So you also have to credit the men for taking us on a higher journey, for setting up the Torah and Jewish life to the extent Hashem grants us that power. This is why Rav Hirsch says men as zachar, are the zicharon, the carriers of the tradition. I could argue that the women didn’t sin because they were sitting around talking. I wouldn’t say that about the great women of that generation but you get the point, falling has to be understood in context.
Women were spoken to first at har Sinai but the man was spoken to first in gad eden. the Maharal says in gad eden only one mitzvah was given and since women are less spiritual Chava was less able to handle it and you see she initiated the first sin. At har sinai a full system was being given so you could approach the women first and needed to to enforce in them the idea of the importance of Torah. Tiferes Israel 28
According to the Netziv, only Sarah’s ruach hakodesh was higher and that’s because she was in the tent and Avraham was exposed to the masses. But avraham’s navuah was higher. Rav A. Miller says the same and that of course Avraham was her rebbe. R’ Soloveitchik says the matter is limited to certain matters of social, familial relationships.
Bottom line is you are dealing with two types of spirituality. The woman has more of an emunah peshuta that works somewhat intuitively and has a certain stability to it. The man has more of a high flying spirituality (has more chochos hanefesh says the maharal) and can crash because of this but without him you don’t go on much of a journey. You need both types of people.August 30, 2018 8:42 am at 8:42 am #1583340
“Chabadshlucha, I also asked about it being sung at a male-only event. (I gave some examples.) Based on your comment it appears you’d see that the same as singing shelo asani goy at a Jewish-only event”
No its different. It is advisable and admirable to keep ourselves apart from the goyim so that we can retain the extra kedusha and standards we are expected to have as Hashem’s holy nation. Therefore the song is OK even as the message is we are not goyim, as long as it is sung in appropriate settings as mentioned above.
However as explained above, men and women are two halves of one wholesome persona and unit, and as such such a song or celebration of male advantages is just weird and bad middos as it comes across as bashing the females, even if sung at a male only event.
We are meant to work together and strengthen each other, quietly thank Hashem for our unique maalos and appreciate the others strengths as well, not tout our superiority in one area or another and bash the other gender.
There is also plenty of material to make male bashing songs based on women’s maalos. But Torah isn’t there to promote gaava, egoism and destruction of others… Quite the opposite.
Deracheha darchei noam vchol nesovoseha *shalom*.August 30, 2018 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1583429
Look at the Tshuva Meahava 13 who questions, why do we follow Chana rather than Eli? If that was the right way, why would Eli thing that she was drunk? He answers that we don’t follow her completely either. You suppose to hear yourself but others should not hear you when davening, not just moving your mouth.August 30, 2018 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1583434
CS, the reasons you’re citing not to sing it are also reasons you could equally cite why men should skip the brocho during davening. I’m arguing that the same reason why men say this brocho during davening, in appreciation to Hashem for this, is a reason why to sing this brocho anytime.August 30, 2018 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1583523
“Q – Shelo asani goy I can understand as Jewish pride, but why sing shelo asani isha as a song? A – the motivation [for singing would be the same motivation as] when saying the brocho itself and appreciating the reason Chazal instituted it”
Nah – we say the bracha because chazal instituted it. No more, no less. They didn’t tell us to make a song of it with microphones, guitars, drum-sets and whatnot. Do you break out the bongo-drums and sing hamotzi lechem min haaretz? Making a song out of a bracha comes from a motivation that we cannot pin on chazal. And again, I can understand the motivation behind the shelo asani goy song. We are in golus, surrounded by a non-Jewish culture that has veered between hostility and assimilating. I can even see a reason for a bongo-drum hamotzi, e.g., chinuch for a young child. I have yet to see a cogent reason for making one from shelo asani isha.
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