January 16, 2011 6:06 am at 6:06 am #729667
Are you planning to become a Dayan? We really need our best and brightest young men to pursue such careers. Where are you studying law and learning for semichah? There are very few formal programs for yadin yadin. Please keep us appraised of your progress.
I wish you much success!January 17, 2011 12:14 am at 12:14 am #729668HomeownerMember
RSRH, Actually, we already have “Shailos U’teshuvos;” they’re called Restatements. 😉
Your point about Arbah Avos Nezikin reminds me when an instructor at my school actually checked that out from the main university library and I overheard her saying in the law library that this was the “Jewish law of four kinds of things that cause damages.” I explained that they were four of multiple kinds of things that cause damages.
Nevertheless, how would one divine damages for e.g., copyright infringement from the Gemara?
I believe I better understand your goal. When I took Torts, some of my Christian classmates were impressed to hear from me that the words in the Chumash “Ayin tachat ayin, shayn tachat shayn” were actually more like headnotes for the discussion in the Torah Sheh B’al Peh about determining monetary damages for bodily injury, the actual system we use today. They were even more interested to learn that historically, payment of money was the judgment by bes din for BI and not an equivalent loss of limb.
Of course, none of this is bar exam material.
You might be interested in the CLEs occasionally presented by Chabad in Manhattan on the connections between Halacha and American law. I attended one a a few years ago where Nathan Lewin spoke.
Again, very best wishes for success in your article and in the profession.January 17, 2011 5:02 am at 5:02 am #729669yunger mannMember
Oomis and others
Hi im a yunger mann learning in Lakewood im married for a bit under three years. At the time of my engagement my father and my father in-law made up that my father in-law would support me and my wife for five years. Unfortunately at the end of two years my father in-law informed me that duo to the economy he is not doing well and he will no longer be able to keep to his commitment. Duo to a specific Occurrence he decided to continue giving us a very small percentage of what he was giving up on till then.
Oh! And did I forget to mention that I grew up in Lakewood and that my father spent over 11 years in kollel while my mother had a small home business on till my father became a rebbi in a local mossed . we where very happy we lacked nothing we had nice clothes went on nice vacations and we lived in a nice home hashem took care of my parents and he continues to provide for them and their children. So that whole second generation kollel theory is bogus. if one douse what hashem wants from him he can put his trust in hashem he always comes through!
I think my life and the life of my parents disproves a lot of what many of you have been saying.
Thank you for reading this. Yunger mannJanuary 17, 2011 9:49 am at 9:49 am #729670m in IsraelMember
I am also getting the feeling that the OP simply posted this topic as bait.
However, as a “kollel wife” for many years, I take great offense at the implication that most individuals learning in Kollel are doing it on “someone else’s dime” and are somehow less independent/ grown up. Disclaimer: I never lived in Lakewood. That being said, in the large Kollel community I was part of (in the NY area — not out of town), a vast majority of the families were supported by the wife working, combined with odds and ends (husband tutoring/teaching on his lunch break, jobs in camps Bain Hazmanim,etc.).
I got a degree in an area that I knew commanded a decent salary because I very much wanted to marry someone for whom “toraso hu umnoso”, and as my parents themselves are both mechanchim I knew that they would not be “supporting” me. (Disclaimer #2 My parents did pay for my schooling — although I know many wives who even did that on their own) We lived in a small apartment and did not spend excessively, but B”H we always lived a normal life. We went on occasional vacations, ate out for special events, etc. I kept an eye out for sales, and sometimes received “hand me downs” but mostly bought my kids new clothes.
Between my salary, the extras my husband was able to make, and living a fiscally responsible lifestyle, we not only supported ourselves, but saved regularly. (Our parents gave us occasional gifts such as some paraphernalia when our kids were born, etc., but did not “support us”. We also never qualified for any government programs due to my salary.) We were not unusual in my circles, and most of my friends were doing the same thing.
True, it is not the wife’s ultimate responsibility, and there are many factors to such a discussion, such as it’s implications regarding child care. But that is something decided between a husband and wife (and hopefully his rabbeim). A Kollel lifestyle is a partnership between spouses (as all aspects of marriage are!) There are many women out there who proudly and gladly commit to that partnership.
That being said, if parents want the zchus to support a child in learning, I don’t see why that is a problem. If they have the money and want to support Torah learning, why shouldn’t that support go to their own child? I know of a family where when the mother found out that her son-in-law was considering leaving Kollel as finances were getting tight, she decided to go back to work in order to help her children stay in learning. (Until that point they had been managing independently — the daughter would never have dreamed of choosing a lifestyle for herself and making her parents pay. The mother on her own valued her daughter and son-in-law’s learning, and wanted it to continue.) They ended up staying in Kollel quite a few more years — all to the zchus of this mother!January 17, 2011 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #7296711818Participant
My 2 cents- as someone who works and makes close to 200k and has 50 k tuition payments , I asked my father in law to help with tuition. He did but makes my life hell. His comments and actions toward me make life hard. It is not easy taking money from other people (even your own parents)
I strongly suggest you combine learning and working. You will feel way better about yourself. Being dependent is not all its cracked up to beJanuary 17, 2011 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #729672
“how would one divine damages for e.g., copyright infringement from the Gemara?”
There is actually quite a bit of halachic literature on this. Communal authorities have at times granted exclusive licenses for some seforim. I’m not familiar with this topic, though; perhaps RSRH can enlighten us.
In any case, copyright infringement is a violation of secular law.
“I do not think correcting misconceptions among those who do care about Jewish law is an empty effort at all”
In addition, dina malchutcha dina IS halachah so it is important that dayanim understand secular law. Aspects of secular law such as taxes affect property cases in batei dinim even according to the most minimal interpretation of dina malchutcha dina. Finally, a beit din must be sure that its decisions are not inconsistent with mandatory provisions of secular law or the secular courts can overturn them. A dayan needs to know a lot of secular law.January 17, 2011 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #729673oomisParticipant
I know its off topic, but you MUST go over to the joke thread, and scroll up a day or so, till you get to the “1st, 2nd, 3rd” list. I read it yesterday, and its right up you alley (I found myself relating to almost every one on the list, to some degree or another)”
OK, now I am curious.January 17, 2011 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #729674oomisParticipant
I went back to the joke list, and you have to admit that every one of them is absolute emes. I remember taking photo after photo of my firstborn enough to fill five albums. When my daughter came along, I took many pictures of her (at least an album). I have about 10 pictures that I could find of my next one, a couple here and there of my fourth, and WHAT HAPPENED TO MY FIFTH?????????I know there’s a picture of him in there, somewhere…(oh well, the school’s will take pics of them over the years…)January 17, 2011 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #729675
Hashem yerachem! But I don’t understand your point; if someone who earns 200K and still suffers from needing help, why would that recommend working full time? Either way, your going to suffer (unless you’re in the 3% or so who earn more than 200k); might as well learn, if that’s your ambition anyway!
Anyhow, many people who support their children do it in a completely non-controlling way. See posts above; this is also, in my experience, very common.January 17, 2011 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #729676
I agree with your last post; knowing the “dina malchusa” is imperative for a dayan. However, he must not allow the legal theories behind it to affect his understanding of Choshen Mishpat.January 17, 2011 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #729677GabboimMember
charlie: If it is between 2 frum Jewish parties, Beis Din will rule based exclusively on Halacha, not goyish law. Dinei Momunos are binding, and not secular law, if in conflict (i.e. Halacha demands one ruling while goyish law demands the opposite ruling.)January 17, 2011 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #729678RSRHMember
I don’t know much about Intellectual Property law. The subject fascinates me, and intellectual property in halacha is something I have always wanted to research, but and my other legal/halachik interests pretty much occupy all my time.
I have come across some of the halachik literature you mentioned. See, e.g., Shut Zichron Yosef, Choshen Mishpat, siman 2, cited in Pischei Teshuva, Choshen Mishpat 2:4 (discussing the famous case of the Zolbach/Amsterdam Brothers edition of shas). It seems to me from the discussion there that even if there is no explicit provision for intellectual property in gemara (though I think it might be tentatively teased from other talmudic discussions related to competition, and the notion that one has a chiyuv to relate ideas in the name of he who initiated them – speculative at best, and I haven’t actually researched it, but there may be something to it), there is significant room for local takanos and halachikly binding legislation on these matters, see generally, Choshen Mishpat, siman 2.January 17, 2011 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #729679OfcourseMember
yunger mann, you and your wife are clearly in the category of needing Torah/full time learning, above everything else, like you need air to breathe. That is to be highly commended. There are many in Lakewoood like that and they are an example for all. You dont suffer from “nebbyphobia” (fear of being perceived as nebby), like many of the other Lakewood people I know personally, which has a big effect on their needs/desires/happiness/satisfaction in life!January 17, 2011 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #729680
It’s more complicated than that. Often, the parties enter into an agreement without stipulating certain conditions, and the ??? ??? will determine what the unspoken agreement (i.e. ??????) is, based on ???? ?????, which, in turn, is often determined by local law.January 17, 2011 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #729681RSRHMember
To add on to Daas Yochid’s comment:
Jewish parties can also, of course, voluntarily contract around many halachik rules (provided they do not violate the law of t’nai al ma shekasuv b’Torah, which will require precise language in the contract, as well as some substantive restrictions on what can be done), and Beis Din will then be obliged to enforce the terms of the contract.
Contracting around halacha and incorporating State or Federal law into contracts between Torah-observant Jews is not uncommon, and is entirely reasonable when the parties generally run their businesses in accordance with secular law regulations. Complying with one system of law in some dealings, and an entirely different system in other dealings is inefficient, complicated, and sometimes unworkable entirely.
As a side note, this kind of case provides a great example of what I was saying before – how issues raised in the study of secular law can inform understanding of the application of halacha. If a Beis Din is in the position of enforcing a contract incorporating , for example, New York law, how does the Bais Din proceed? Do the dayyanim research the New York case law in order to accurately reflect the current State of New York law? If so, how can they do so without significant knowledge of the secular system (obviously they can employ lawyers as experts, but that raises a host of other issues, since different practitioners of New York law are likely to have different views on any particular question)? Perhaps the dayyanim should work off the New York statutes, ignore the case law, and interpret the legislation themselves? These are all issues that are dealt with extensively in secular law, and which are, to my VERY LIMITED knowledge, are not dealt with in traditional halachik literature. If not for my study of American law, such questions would likely not even occur to me in my study of Choshen Mishpat.January 17, 2011 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #729682
I see the title of this thread was changed (probably for those who took offense at yeshiva being disassociated with the “real” world.
However, the new title is (imo) misleading; the OP had nothing to do with being “yeshivish” (whatever that means). My suggestion for a title?
January 17, 2011 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #729683Bed-StuyParticipant
- Should I continue in Yeshiva or go to work?
Two parties in New York can sign a contract stipulating it is to be governed by Chinese law. Then Beis Din will presumably need to research Chinese law to render a psak in the dispute. Sometimes ???? ????? (which may encompass local law) is a factor in what the halacha is, during a dispute. Nevertheless, by default if halacha and secular law conflict in how to rule in a case, halacha prevails.January 17, 2011 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #729684
obviously they can employ lawyers as experts, but that raises a host of other issues, since different practitioners of New York law are likely to have different views on any particular question
I wouldn’t think consulting lawyers should be a problem; dayanim regularly consult experts in all fields for their knowledge and expertise. Similarly, rabbonim regularly consult physicians for shailos involving medicine.January 17, 2011 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #729686shaigetsMember
i tought that “hoitsoas bonov letalmoed toire” cums back, so y work ?January 17, 2011 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #729687
re: title change:
Good choice; better than mine.January 18, 2011 1:50 am at 1:50 am #729689Josh31Participant
“that one must learn after he’s married in kollel”
If that is the reason someone is in Kollel, he should not be there.
If he is there to make a solid accomplishment in learning or prepare for Meleches Kodesh that is another story.January 19, 2011 4:47 am at 4:47 am #729690chayav inish livisumayParticipant
guys nobody will read ur comments if they are 50 lines long give me a breakJanuary 19, 2011 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #729691yeshivaguy1Participant
You are wrong. If it is well written and it has substance I enjoy reading a long comment. Maybe if your reading skills are not 100% up to par you don’t want to read a long comment.January 19, 2011 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #729692
‘I agree with your last post; knowing the “dina malchusa” is imperative for a dayan. However, he must not allow the legal theories behind it to affect his understanding of Choshen Mishpat. ‘
I agree. The theory and motivation behind secular law is very different from that of halachah. You are not a Daat Yachid.January 19, 2011 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #729693
Thanks for that list of sources!January 19, 2011 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #729694
” If it is between 2 frum Jewish parties, Beis Din will rule based exclusively on Halacha, not goyish law. Dinei Momunos are binding, and not secular law, if in conflict (i.e. Halacha demands one ruling while goyish law demands the opposite ruling.) “
This is actually a complicated issue. A few years ago a beit din ruled in favor of a teacher who had been dismissed from a yeshiva, forcing the yeshiva to grant the teacher tenure. An out of control judge (who was reported by some to be a member of the Orthodox community!) overturned the beit din’s decision, saying it was irrational and contrary to public policy. Fortuntately the judge was overturned on appeal but it IS true that in the US, religious courts are subject to secular courts. There is actually a serious proposal in Texas that would essentially ban religious courts from using religious law in making decisions; I’m surprised that the Jewish community is not fighting it tooth and nail.
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