Should pro-freikeit commentors be given a voice?

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  • #625974

    mdlevine
    Member

    Pashuteh Yid

    you wrote:

    “…are you really giving yourself a pat on the back, and announcing that you have kept every halacha perfectly to a tee your entire life? I would be honored to meet someone of such high caliber. Someone perfect is ideally suited to give tochacha”

    this could be applied to another frequent poster and all his “talmudic like” references to other posts to bring his “proofs”

    I hate to be the one to be the bearer of bad news to you, but these guys (gedolim and complete tzaddikim in their view) sadly fall short due to bitul Torah. I am posting this as a frequent poster to Yeshiva World (and not (yet) named on the “to be banned” list nor on the list of those naming names of who should be banned), so I am also guilty of bitul Torah, as they are. one can not reach the level of perfection while involved in bitul Torah.

    So, these guys can claim that they are the Pincus of today rooting out the evil amongst us, however, 1) Pincus asked a question of the Gadol haDor before acting – and we see the approval and 2) Pincus went to get his spear (the following is from a tape I heard from R’M.M. Weiss) – meaning he was not carrying it with him. in other words, he wasn’t looking for a situation to rise to the level of hero, but when he saw what needed to be done and was very much aware of the Halacha, he first asked, then he got his spear to react.

    I do not think that this is what is happening here. Not sure, but I doubt that a Gadol was asked about responding to perceived inappropriate remarks and I am not sure if the reading is not with the intent to respond as opposed to just reading and then having to respond.

    #625975

    willi
    Member

    ujm – why use such harsh language?

    #625976

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Joseph, UJM, Qwerty,

    Please look at Sotah 21b. Heichi dami chosid shoteh? Rav Zerika amar Rav Huna zeh hamaikil l’atzmo umachmir l’acheirim. (One who is lenient with himself but strict on others.) Also see Rashi on Rav Yosef bar Chama amar Rav Sheshes zeh hamachria acheirim b’orchosov.

    So it is absolutely clear that one who gives tochacha on an area in which he is lax in is a chosid shoteh which today we would call a hypocrite, and it would seem, therefore, that he is patur from the mitzva of tochacha. So the concept of people in glass houses is indeed a yiddishe concept.

    For this reason, I exempt myself from tochacha, since I don’t trust myself to be on the level to criticize others.

    UJM, could you kindly cite where I advocated going against Shulchan Oruch?

    As far as my remarks about the tznius asifah, I apologize and will try to ask mechila from the gedolim involved, since some may have interpreted my remarks to be against them.

    In fact, my astonishment was how Lakewood which is the citadel of Torah, could be considered lax in tznius? It would be like saying the NY Yankees should practice hitting from a Tee-Ball to learn how to properly hold a bat. Or like telling Isaac Stern he is not holding his violin right, or like saying the people in Harvard are getting lax in long-division. How is it possible that in Lakewood they are lax? Nobody has thus far given me any explanation on what they are lax in.

    As far as the Nun joke is concerned, think of it mathematically. Currently, the people in Lakewood are covering X square inches. The Rabbonim would like them to increase to Y square inches. But how much difference is there between Y and Z square inches where Z is the number that are covered by a Nun. Since the current dress custom is X which is already presumably a very high number, if you go up much further you must automatically end up at Z. There is simply physically not that much room between Y and Z.

    Another point, Reb SHmuel doesn’t live in Lakewood, so he must be relying on info told him by others of any purported problem. But didn’t we have disastrous results the last time that happened when certain kannaim gave misleading info to the gedolim about the concert ban. Both Reb Shmuel and Rav Belsky needed to later independently qualify their positions, with Rav Belsky even using the term forgery of his signature, I believe. I simply don’t trust kannaim.

    #625977

    Bogen
    Participant

    mdlevine:

    I think you are wrong, and here is why. Firstly, like you correctly indicate, kanuis has its place and who are we simpletons to judge if someone is a kosher kanuy like Pinchus?

    But the thing I must disagree with you is, that any comment on this blog could constitute ‘kanuis.’ Kanuis must constitute an action, not a blog comment. The negatively throwing around the term and calling anyone you disagree with a kanuy, is grossly overabused to the point it loses all meaning.

    Now what a comment could constitute, is tochahcha. And unless you think the person cannot be influenced for the better, tochacha is a good thing.

    #625981

    The Big One
    Participant

    Please, please, can everyone make up and be b’shalom? Pashuteh Yid, jent1150, mdlevine, josephf, Feif Un, illini07. Please????

    #625982

    cantoresq
    Member

    Pashuteh –

    The glass house bit, you are alluding to, is a non-Jewish concept. You are trying to deduce that it is improper for ANYONE to correct anyone else, “since no one is perfect.” In Torah Judaism, a Yid is OBLIGATED to give tochacha. You, like so many other mitzvos, would like that repealed and reformed.

    If Judaism ever finished reforming itself to your specifications, there would be nothing left of it. In fact, the “Reform” and “Conservative” movements are just that.

    Yes, yes, I know, how dare you be corrected. How “kanaish.”

    Posted 19 hours ago #

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Actually, Joseph, in the Iggrot Chazon Ish, he cautions us against giving tochachah in our (i.e his generation) since it will proboably not have the desired affect, but rather the opposite one. The Chazzon Ish actually recommends against it.Additionally, in hsi Darchei haHora’ah, the Maharitz Chajes brings literally scores of examples where the nosei keilim to the Shulchan Arukh and other poskim describe a widely accepted abberant practice but then decide to do nothing about it based on “mutav sheyihiu shoggegin velo meizidin.” When, if and how to give tochachah seems not to be as simple as you seem to think.

    #625983

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Again, I ask: I was listed in the first post, and have been accused again since of being “pro freikeit”. Can someone please quote something I posted which indicates this? If not, I demand an apology from all those who spoke lashon hara and motzei shem ra about me.

    Be aware that the halacha is that a person has no chiyuv to forgive someone who speaks lashon hara about him until he is asked for forgiveness, and the penalties for lashon hara are very harsh.

    Actually, regardless of whether you can show some proof or not, it’s probably still lashon hara, and you should ask mechila.

    #625984

    The Big One
    Participant

    Feif Un,

    How could anyone have said loshon hora or have been motzei shem ra you????

    Said loshon hora or been motzei shem ra on Mr. Un? I mean, no one knows who you are (or the posters for that matter); you go by some quacky screen name; so who exactly is it being said against???

    You can’t say loshon hora or be motzei shem ra on ANONYMOUS (or some fake name)!!!

    #625985

    Feif Un
    Participant

    The Big One: How do you know that nobody knows my screen name here? I happen to have friends who do know my name, and with the posts attacking me, they may have read lashon hara or motzei shem ra about me. So, now, not only do these posters have to ask mechilah from me, they have to ask mechilah from all those who may have recognized my screen name for making them read the lashon hara!

    #625987

    Feif Un
    Participant

    It’s amazing how when I point out that nobody can back up what they accuse me of, they’re suddenly quiet. Well, remember, Rosh Hashanah is just 2 months away. You have until then to ask for forgiveness.

    #625988

    The Big One
    Participant
    #625989

    illini07
    Member

    Feif Un, I feel you on this one. I ask and all I get pointed out to me is a simple factual statement about the humanity and fallibility of Jews…

    #625990

    noitallmr
    Participant

    GUYS…is this an appropaite preperation for Elul???

    This coffee room thing just started lets not give the YW editor already a reason to shut it…everyone take a chill pill and just calm down.

    #625991

    YeshivaRodefKesef
    Participant

    NOTHING LIKE SOME GOOD CONTROVERSEY TO BE MIKAREV THE GEULAH. SICKENING!

    #625992

    Think BIG
    Member

    Pashuteh Yid:

    It seems to me that this is not really about tochahcha at all. #1 I doubt these people bashing you really care about you so much to want to help you improve (which I think is a prerequisite for giving tochacha –correct me if I’m wrong on this one guys) #2 If they really sincerely want to fulfill the mitzvah of Hocheach Tochiach, they probably would word themselves very differently.

    Rather, I think this is more an issue of kanaus if anything. These people, who are so steeped in Yiras Shomayim and Limud Hatorah and Ahavas Hashem, just can’t bear to read words that display crooked ideas (in their view) against Hashem and His Torah, and therefor they feel a need to protest, lmaan hashem.

    It reminds me of a story I once heard in the name of one of the Gedolim. He was asked why when a secular Jew drives his car on Shabbos do people scream “shabbos!” at him. What does it help? Will it stop him from doing it next time?

    He replied that when a child falls and hurts himself, he cries. Why? Does it help? No, but “ven es tut vei, veint men!” When it hurts you cry.

    That’s real kanaus. I don’t know if this is the real thing or not, but in one of your posts you advocated the Rabbonim making an asifa and banning all kanaus. The “kanaim” you describe (the acid throwers) are indeed a fringe element and what they do goes against the Torah l’chol hadayos. But think about it, will they stop doing these things if an asifa were held about it?? The asifa would simply be a waste of time because these thigs do not apply to normal people.

    But then there are some special individuals who are real kanaim, who see a major chillul hashem, and get up there and protest it, sometimes at great risk to themselves. I heard recently in the name of R’ Ephrayim Wachsman that when the b’nos moav were infilterating klal isroel and causing the men to sin, and the whole story of Zimri’s brazen act transpired, no one knew what to do. All the yidden stood around crying, helpless. Only Pinchas got up there and knew what to do. He did the right thing (risking his life in the process) killed Zimri, and thereby stopped the plague.

    Hashem later said that if not for Pinchas’s act of kanaus He would have detroyed all of Klal Yisroel.

    (Pinchas took his spear -“Romach”- to do this deed [which we would say today was an act of VIOLENCE] , which brought about “Rachem”, [transpose the letters] mercy from Hashem, as this saved Klal Yisroel.)

    Today , says R’ wachsman, we have a simlar situation of imorality going on, and we all stand around helpless, not knowing what to do, crying. But here and there we have a kanai like Pinchas who gets up there and knows what to do, and that is what will save us. Ban kanaus? I think not. But maybe we can learn what kanaus really means, being zealous for Hashem and the Torah, not for any personal reasons.

    #625993

    cantoresq
    Member

    Let me join in with my frustration. I’ve demonstrated how my thinking is based on sugyot in Shas. No one has responded. Let’s all remember the principle of “shtikah k’hoda’ah dami”

    #625994

    The Big One
    Participant

    Hey guys, I hit upon a brainstorm. If your so out of sync with the Yeshivish (aka Chareidi) community, why don’t you folks start your own site and try to propagate your left-of-center religious ideologies? Better than duking it out with a Torah-centered community that will never be convinced by your modern beliefs.

    No hats or jackets required during prayers. Any man going by the title Rabbi must be respected to make converts. Relaxed tznius standards. Hallel on Israel independence day.

    Now why didn’t one of you think of that until now?

    #625995

    Zalman
    Participant

    I think the aforementioned posters on this thread are like tinuk shenishba and should be pitied as such and not harshly criticized.

    #625996

    Think BIG
    Member

    Big one, if they do that, who will all the kana’im argue with?

    #625997

    Bowzer
    Participant

    Any one who shooses to get his news here is doing so cuz he wants shmiras aynayim and to get the news from a frum ayin. So that’s a zechus to all these bloggers.

    As I am following this thread, I want to call everyone’s attention to something. All of us who “fight ” against this chevera in this thread or other places. We (including MYSELF) have mentioned the we must follow the Rabonim. It just hit me- that that (including MYSELF) is very hypocritical. I don’t think any of “our” charedi rabbonim whould approve of me doing what I am doing right now on a web site that I don’t need for work!!!

    So. . . I am going to try (it is addictive and intresting especially at my boring job) to break this “bad” habit and I invite all of you to join with me!

    (of course I’ll have to peek back in this coffe room to find out if anyone reacted to my post. . . just once maybe)

    #625998

    Feif Un
    Participant

    The Big one, nobody said you shouldn’t wear a hat and jacket during davening. All they (and I) said was that to say someone without a hat and jacket isn’t a yorei shamayim and doens’t have kavanah is just stupidity. How do you know the level of someone’s kavanah, or yiras shamayim?

    #625999

    cantoresq
    Member

    The Big One said:

    Hey guys, I hit upon a brainstorm. If your so out of sync with the Yeshivish (aka Chareidi) community, why don’t you folks start your own site and try to propagate your left-of-center religious ideologies? Better than duking it out with a Torah-centered community that will never be convinced by your modern beliefs.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Those thre sentances aptly sum up the supercilious truculence of Chareidi thinking. Despite Chazal telling us “Yesh harbei panim l’Torah” as far as they are concerned, their way is the ONLY “Torah-centered community” that counts. It is due to that mindset that klal Yisrael will never achieve anything approaching unity.

    #626000

    Chuck Schwab
    Participant

    The Big One: They’re afraid their rejected ideas would attract only the lowest elements.

    #626001

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    well, “the big one” has a good idea. But then, if you’d stay on this site, where would you and others go to find the truth? I mean, you could not log on to the “other” site, in case your mind gets polluted!

    #626002

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Think Big:

    As I have quoted the Chazon Ish in Hilchos shechita, and as others have quoted what are probably similar views of his from his other writings, today we must talk gently, as they will interpret harsh speech as violence, (which implies al achas kamah vkamah that violence itself is forbidden. The Chazon Ish says that the halachos of moridin vlo maalin only apply at a time when hasgachas HKBH geluyah l’ein kol. (When hashem’s providence and control of the world are apparent to all. In those times, aveiros were clear cut rebellion.

    But the Chazon Ish provides no makor and no hesber on this statement. Let me offer a hesber. The Rambam says that before a navi is believed to be a navi, he must authenticate himself. That means he must be tested and pass. The test is that he must make predictions and mofsim that come true exactly as he said. The Rambam says this can be done multiple times if we are not convinced. We can give him more tests. (He says we should not overdo it, but he doesn’t seem to say a specific number of times.)

    After a person has been shown that this navi actually says the word of hashem, he must obey. However, in our generation, we have no nevuah, and therefore if you go over to a frei yid and tell him he must keep shabbos and start screaming at him, his first question will be why should I believe you that you are right. Even if you throw around all the names of all the biggest gedolim who say to keep shabbos, his response will be a) I never heard of them, or b) who said they are right.

    And you know what? he has every right to do so. Why should he believe some stranger on the street who is screaming at him? If you are prepared to make a mofes for him or predict the future, then please do so. If you are unable to do so, you have no right to scream or hit. Pinchas only applied in a totally different generation. In today’s generation, the only way to get somebody to keep shabbos is by gentle motivation and teaching by example.

    Maybe this is pshat in the Chazon Ish.

    #626004

    Feif Un
    Participant

    The Big One, you just showed one of the main reasons why Moshiach hasn’t come yet. When you disagree with someone, you just tell them to go somewhere else, by themselves. This is not the Jewish way! You must love every Jew whether they agree with you or not.

    “Your modern beliefs”? Like what? Defending R’ Tendler from a bunch of people who are determined to speak lashon hara and motzei shem ra about him? Or saying that you can daven without a hat and jacket and still be a yarei shamayim? Or maybe it was illini’s post, that Jews are capable of doing bad things? (That one takes the cake, by the way – some said he was 100% wrong, that Jews aren’t even capable of such things, yet you blast the early Zionists for doing just those things.) What “modern beliefs” are you talking about?

    #626005

    favish
    Member

    to caantor esg..page 7 ..we have mentioned to you on other article to your comment above ..that there is ‘harbe panim l’torah’ and there is a ‘megaleh panim l’torah’, you are from the latter as we have pointed out from your postings all over see there..

    #626006

    Think BIG
    Member

    Poshut Yid:

    Either you misunderstood me or i misunderstand you.

    In my earlier post, all I was doing was differentiating between tochacha and kanaus. I said that I doubt anyone on this blog is giving tochacha, but rather i said it came from a sense of kanaus-IF ANYTHING.

    Secondly, moving on to kanaus, By quoting R’ Wachsman, and showing how Pinchas saved the nation with his kanaus, the point was that kanaus might just be the thing we need to save us today. my last line was the key: “But maybe we can learn what kanaus really means (and may i add, WHEN AND HOW TO BE A KANAI) being zealous for hashem and his torah and not for personal reasons. I only took issue with your general statement of “let’s ban kanaus” when kanaus is a very important concept in yiddishkeit.

    But you’ve gone completely off on a tangent with your proof. I agree with you that gentle words are better “divrei chachamim benachas nishmaim). That is quite obvious to anyone and needs no proof. Your example is quite far-fetched, excuse me for saying so. Who exactly in their right mind goes over to a frei person and starts yelling at them to keep shabbos??? Did you ever have such an experience, or can you even conceive of such a scenario? Most people who are into kiruv teach shabbos in a very non-pressuring, loving way. So lets get real about this.

    Lastly, I agree that any frei person has a right to ask for proof, and in fact I think any person, even an ffb may and should ask questions in order to understand. (The main thing is that the questions should come from a place of temimus and sincerity not from rebelliousness). You should realize one reason why there is so much angry give and take on this blog can be because the “kanaim” feel that some people are asking questions or making comments just to mock or belittle, and not because they sincerely wish to learn.(like rabbiof berlin says). Or because they deliberately warp daas Torah. I am sure that if any of the “kanaaim” thought that a question came from a sincere desire to know, they would answer respectfully without antagonism.

    But getting back to the issue at hand, I do think thak that people on this blog should try to temper their words a bit and try not to put people down. On the other side of the coin, other people need to ask themselves if the questions they ask or the comments they make are made in ernestness, and not because they want to bait people, or put down what they hold to be holy and true. And if the answer is “NO” –what are you gaining??

    #626007

    nameless
    Member

    Should pro-freikeit commentors be given a voice?

    Why not?? Why are you so intimidated by people who have questions? Answer them with confidence and dont forget you have the Torah on your side so there is no reason for them to get to you.

    Cantoresque apparantly thinks that because he MIGHT be able to say a nice ‘Shma Koleinu’ on Yom KIPPUR, he is worthy of having Maran Harav Hagodol Rav Chaim KANIEVSKY call him on his cell phone to confirm a story he was involved in because he doubts the credibility of the mesenger(a prominet Rebbetzin)

    Wolfishmusings turned Chamishay Chumsha Torah into Shishei Chumsha Torah. His latest Addition? THE GUINESS BOOK OF RECORDS..

    Rabbi of Berlin wants an apology because he thinks I insulted him for BLANTANTLY deeming a story told by someone in the name of Rav Kanievsky a ‘fairy tale’.

    I mean; who are the challengers here exactly?

    #626008

    nameless
    Member

    sorry, ‘Shisho Chamishe Torah’

    #626009

    ujm
    Participant

    feifun, the comment mentioned examples of modern views i.e. hallel on israel independence, no jackets and hats, etc.

    #626010

    Feif Un
    Participant

    ujm, I never said you should say Hallel on Yom Ha’atzmaut. I am personally very against it. I do think, however, that it is worth recognizing. I believe I said I was in favor of putting up a flag if you’re in Israel.

    As for a hat and jacket, I never said I’m against it. I’m against saying that someone without a hat and jacket obviously isn’t a yaarei shamayim. You don’t know the person at all, yet you’re judging him based on how he dresses?

    #626011

    Will Hill
    Participant

    Think Big,

    Yahser Koach! Zeit gut gezugt.

    Kanaus IS a vitally important tool in Torah Yiddishkeit. Like everything else, it must be used correctly. And it should be used when necessary.

    The modern crown yells “kanaus” everytime someone sticks up for a part of the Torah they are uncomfortable with. Thats one way when you know you are on target.

    Tochacha the same thing applies. It is a vitally important tool in Torah Yiddishkeit. And the modern crown yells “kanaus” everytime someone sticks up for a part of the Torah they are uncomfortable with.

    #626012

    favish
    Member

    to will hill and whats wrong with kanoes that they yell kanuous? its mitzvah essay d’oiriese ‘ hochaiach, tochiach’..yes mr working man you’ll come with your secular education…and say ‘let those who are without sin cast the first stone'(see not only do we know the saying ‘holier than thou’ but also this which is worse concept than ‘holier…’even thou according to you we didnt get such a thing as ‘SECULAR EDUCATION’ which we did..

    #626013

    Think BIG
    Member

    Thank you will Hill, and same to you.

    #626014

    irhakodesh
    Member

    If you don’t want “opposing views” here then why do you link regular articles on YWN to the coffee room? I am very serious here. That’s how I landed up here. Why not just hang the internet coffee room site up in your ehrleche beis medrash?

    I was very upset when I started reading comments. I always thought that there was a tolerance between yeshivish and chassidish. I guess I was naive! As all of the sides get bashed I wonder is this really how the KBH envisions tochacha? I for one am disillusioned!

    #626015

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Will Hill, so you are diagreeing with the Chazon Ish in hilchos shechita who says the only way to bring back the chilonim is with ropes of ahavah?

    Kanaus was fine in the days of Pinchas. Times have changed.

    The only thing worth being a kanai about today is ahavas yisroel. And lo and behold, if this is done, then there will be more shabbos and more tznius and more learning, and everything else will fall into place.

    #626016

    Will Hill
    Participant

    “Kanaus was fine in the days of Pinchas. Times have changed.”

    PahutehYid, The Reform agree with you that “times have changed” and what “fine in the days of Pinchas” are no longer relevant today.

    #626017

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    well, as this is the week of tisha be-av (almost,as according to the sefardim ,there is no shevua shechal bo this year), I shall be very measured and reasonable in my comments.

    to nameless, “bemechilas kevod toroshcho” ( i assume you are a male-apologies if this is a mistake- then it would be “toroseich”), I did not ask for an apology from you (on a different posting)because I “blatantly” called a story about a coma for seventy years a fairy tale. BTW, what does Rav Kaniesky have to do wit this ? As far as I reckon, there is no indication that he confirmed this story ,only that this woman’s non-decomposed state was due to the zechus of “no jealousy”, and on this I said, if there are witnesses that this is indeed the case, then indeed it is the case.

    I called for an apology because you called me a “koifer”, without reason, without any basis and without understanding what that means in terms of motzi shem ra.

    If you think that it is common practice to go around calling people “kofrim” without any reason, then,sadly, you are part of the biryonim of yore and the ultras of today who want to silence any debate by calling names.That is not how our Sages throughout the centuries have acted. See the letters of the “Imrei Emess” , the Gerrer Rebbe zz’l, gave Rav Kook zz’l all the kovod he deserved. I think it is advisable to refraim from callong anyone names and sticking to the debate at hand.

    #626018

    Will Hill
    Participant

    “Kanaus was fine in the days of Pinchas. Times have changed.”

    PashutehYid, that is a statement that I would’ve expected to have emanated from Temple Emanu-El. The Reform too believe the what “was fine in the days of Pinchas” in the Torah are no longer since “Times have changed.”

    #626020

    mdlevine
    Member

    everybody seems to forget the first thing that Pincus did prior to getting his spear and killing Zimri. First he checked with Da’as Torah. Rashi said thar Pincus went to Moshe and reminded him of he halacha and Moshe told him that being that the halacha was learned (remembered) through Pincus, Pincus should be the one to carry it out.

    The point is that Pincus KNEW the halacha yet he did not act on his own without first checking with Da’as Torah. That is a valuable lesson in zealotry – even if you KNOW that you are right, stop and confirm first. By Pincus, time was of the essence and he still stopped and asked.

    #626024

    Will Hill
    Participant

    mdlevine, do you assume you are the only poster here who asks daas torah first? I think not. (Btw, does your daas torah approve FIRST anything you post? hmm?)

    #626025

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Will Hill, it was not I who said times have changed, it was the Chazon Ish. As I explained at length earlier, he says that since we have no open hasgacha pratis, we can only use ahavah as a tool of kiruv for chilonim, not anger and violence. Please reread my earlier posts where I gave a hesber, and look up the Chazon Ish in hilchos shechita.

    #626026

    Will Hill
    Participant

    PahsutehYid, And like someone mentioned before, Kanuas is a mitzvah essay d’oiriese hochaiach, tochiach. The Chazon Ish was talking on how to be mekarev a Chiloni. People over here are not Chilonim. So when people here dredge up their anti-Torah hashkofos, kanuas is in order.

    #626027

    mdlevine
    Member

    will hill… I am not equating my posts with Pincus as others here are. I am not attacking all the so called “pro-freikeit” or all the self-proclaimed standard bearers of Torah values. I argue with those that I feel are mistaken and and lend support to those that I feel are correct. I think that I am probably one of the few people that have not been labeled as on either side.

    #626028

    favish
    Member

    to those who say pinchos asked first…very itelligent observation…so 1)since moshe rabbainu was around ,its ‘b’gader morah halacha bifnai rabbo’, even if the halacha is obvious, 2)how do you compare a ‘dinai nefoshos’,to go admonishing one who posts anti toireh ,malik al divrei chahamim etc.. sometime the am haratzes shown by some posters are..

    #626029

    ujm
    Participant

    So mdlevine, you are neither pro-freikeit nor pro-frumkeit? A middle of the roader you say?

    You know what happens to those in “middle of the road”? They get hit from both sides!

    #626030

    Think BIG
    Member

    I agree ith mdlevines earlier post that we need our gedolim to guide us on what is the correct approach in kanaus. jent, it wasn’t begeder morah halacha…as we see pinchas was not punished for anything, only praised and rewarded. He went to check with moshe because he knew he learned the halacha from him, so he wondered why Moshe himself was not carrying it out. Anyways, what are you trying to say, that its not true that he asked Moshe? Rashi brings it down, as im sure you know, so what is your point?

    your second point is well taken, but some will argue that embarrasing and degrading others should also be asked of a Rav since when someone shames another its as if he killed him…

    #626031

    Will Hill
    Participant

    When kanuas is required, many Tzadikim bzman hazeh have engaged in kanuas. And kanuas is a mitzvah not only tzadikim must engage in when called for bzman hazeh.

    #626033

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Jent and Joseph, you have both claimed that the glass houses concept, and he who is without sin should cast first stone are non-jewish. I previously provided a source from Sota about the chossid shoteh who is machmir on others and maikil on himself. Possibly another proof, as well.

    If you believe one who is weak in an area should still be giving mussar to others, then that reminds me of a very funny incident.

    There was a very famous president a while back who did some very infamous things with an intern. A very famous minister was called in to provide mussar and lessons and teachings on how to control the yetzer hara and strengthen the family structure of this president. At the very time this minister was providing these valuable lessons and counseling, the minister was busy with his own “friendship” and was having a child with someone other than his wife. The entire country found this out-and-out hypocracy rather humorous. I would say that Jent and Joseph are probably the only two people in the country who are on the side of this very famous minister. You should both be congratulated for mounting a very spirited defense of the minister. I am sure he would hire you on his PR team. My only request is that I should get a percentage of your fees for making this wonderful shidduch.

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