Should Someone Who Is Considering Murder…

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  • #603632
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    … be allowed to send his kids to yeshiva? Or be a member of a shul? Or be allowed to participate in the community (or receive community aid and support) in any way?

    What if he actually (unsuccessfully) attempted murder?

    The Wolf

    #879789
    i am here
    Member

    Make sure he gets some medical help asap!!!!!!!! He is a dangerous person.

    #879790
    147
    Participant

    The only Halachic ramifications as far as an accidental killing [i.e. if Chas Choliloh someone is run over by a car you are driving] is that a Kohen {who was driving that car} couldn’t perform Birkas Kohanim [This week’s Parsha both in Israel & in the Diaspora]

    #879791
    mommamia22
    Participant

    Very strange question.

    Do you know someone like this???

    #879793
    Chulent
    Member

    Wolf:

    Are you asking about yourself?

    #879794
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Come on, folks!! This isn’t a difficult question.

    Many of you won’t allow a kid in a school is his parent has a TV in his home (whether or not the kid is allowed to watch it), but attempted murder is okay?

    Many of you would turn your back to a needy couple asking for charity to get married if the wedding was going to have mixed seating, but you have no problem with giving charity to someone considering murder?

    Many of you would find it perfectly alright to refuse admittance to shul of a man who is wrongly withholding a get from his wife, but have no problem allowing a potential murderer to daven there?

    Why hasn’t anyone here simply said “No, it’s not okay?”

    The Wolf

    #879795
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The only Halachic ramifications as far as an accidental killing

    I’m not talking about someone who actually killed anyone (accidentally or otherwise). I’m talking about a *potential* murderer.

    The Wolf

    #879796
    ohr chodesh
    Member

    Murder is an extremely rare, almost unheard of, issue in the frum community.

    Compare that to society.

    #879797
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Murder is an extremely rare, almost unheard of, issue in the frum community.

    And the relevance of that to my question is…?

    It doesn’t matter how rare or prevelant it is — Giving one’s children over to Molech is pretty rare today too, but we can all agree that a person who does so should not be in our community. I’m asking for your opinion on how a potential murderer should be handled vis-a-vis his position in the community. How rare it is is really irrelevant, IMHO.

    The Wolf

    #879798
    YW Moderator-18
    Moderator

    Wolf, How would anyone know what someone else is planning?

    #879799
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, How would anyone know what someone else is planning?

    Suppose he told someone. Or suppose he already attempted it once and failed.

    For the sake of argument, just take it as a given that you know.

    The Wolf

    #879800
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I would suspect that no one responded because it is a totally inane question.

    Such “what if” questions are childish. And if you were using it to try to prove a point, it proves no point.

    #879801
    TheGoq
    Participant

    This is a funny thread wolf you kill me.

    #879802
    MorahRach
    Member

    Wolf -So true everything that you said. So true.

    Is it the child’s fault though? If the parent is contemplating murder, it probably has zero to do with the child.

    #879803
    bygirl93
    Member

    his kids are not responsible for his thought or actions, therefore you can not penalize his kids by not allowing them into yeshiva- nor should you let your children know, because then it will get around school and these poor kids will be mocked, ridiculed, and ostracized. and don’t say that doing so will cause him to seek help etc. because someone as messed up as to attempt murder or even entertain the thought has some real issues- and doesn’t think of others. but i would advise that you try and distance yourself from that person and confide in a well respected rav about this issue.

    #879804
    147
    Participant

    Ohr Chodosh:- Murder is an extremely rare, almost unheard of, issue in the frum community.

    I must amend what Ohr Chodosh stated. Murder is Non-Existent in the Frum community. If someone murders, by definition, s/he is NOT part of the Frum community.

    #879805
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Is it the child’s fault though? If the parent is contemplating murder, it probably has zero to do with the child.

    and

    his kids are not responsible for his thought or actions, therefore you can not penalize his kids by not allowing them into yeshiva

    I agree with you in principle, but this doesn’t seem to be the general practice. Yeshivos will throw a child out of school if the parents have a TV or an unfiltered internet connection even if the child is unable to watch/access it.

    But hey, let’s forget the kids/yeshivos angle. I simply used it because it’s the most common form of societal pressure used today. How about simply being allowed to belong to a shul, have an aliya, etc.? Should he be ostracized from the community?

    The Wolf

    #879806
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Wolf and others: Can you PLEASE be mindful to say NY yeshivos or NY shuls. I am very unsettled by peoples habit to reference the Jews by stating what is done in one small corner of the universe. It is unfair to call something a Jewish problem when it hardly applies in many other Jewish communities around the world. Maybe you should consider moving West.

    #879807
    bygirl93
    Member

    syag- its only a small corner? really? it feels like the center of the universe! guess i’m a typical nyer!! lol! sry…..

    #879808
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    S’yag,

    Would a potential murderer be welcome in the LA community?

    The Wolf

    #879809
    Patri
    Member

    The vast majority of frum American Yidden live in the NY Metro Area.

    #879811
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Its pretty irrelevant how many Jews live there. My point is ONLY that people should not look out their front window and tell people what “Jews” do. It worries me to think that someone less affiliated will read these statements written by NYers about Yeshivas and shuls and have false negative impressions that it is inherently a Jewish issue. When I have a problem in my shul I cannot call it a community problem. When I have a complaint against the community, it would be presumptous for me to consider it a “midwestern” problem, let alone a global one. I would need to state it as a local issue, or a local issue that I have heard from others etc. Just to be on the safe side with motze shem rah issues, especially since we are speaking negatively, we should consider who we are including in our broad strokes.

    #879813
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Bygirl: lol. That was why I specifically said “of the universe” 🙂

    #879814
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Syag,

    I’m not sure what it is that I wrote that ticked you off so. My question was fairly straightforward and, I thought, applied to just about every community. I didn’t view this as a “New York” issue or an “out of town” issue. It’s really very simple — should someone who is a potential murderer not be allowed to be a member of the community — whether it be Boro Park, Flatbush, Baltimore or some small two-horse town.

    Can you please either articulate why you think my question is New York-centric or else just answer the question I posed at the top of this thread.

    Thanks,

    The Wolf

    #879815
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I wasnt ticked off. I hear you and others express pain about the way shuls and yeshivas and communities treat people and label people and black ball people and I wanted to clarify that B”H this is not the case everywhere. It is not something that yeshivas do, it is something that some yeshivas do. I think I was pretty clear and dont know why you translated it to be anger but maybe that just proves I am a fool who should never have thought my ideas were worth sharing in the first place.

    #879816
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Wolf,

    In your hypothetical case, is the child likely to have a negative influence on his/her schoolmates based on the father’s wickedness?

    #879817
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Syag,

    Fair enough. My apologies if I misinterpreted your comments. And thank you for clarifying your remark.

    Nonetheless, feel free to pick any community anywhere — would someone who is considering murder be welcome in your shul, wherever in the world you happen to be? Would he be eligible for the services that the local Jewish community offers? It’s really a pretty straightforward question.

    The Wolf

    #879818
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    In your hypothetical case, is the child likely to have a negative influence on his/her schoolmates based on the father’s wickedness?

    I couldn’t answer that. Let’s say no, he wouldn’t. But that would also apply to the case of a TV where the child wasn’t allowed to watch it and could not access it.

    However, as I said, if it’s any easier, forget the yeshivos/children part of the question. Should such a person be refused honors in shul (such as aliyos or even attendance at all) and should he be allowed to remain as a respected member of the community?

    The Wolf

    #879819
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    My response to the first paragraph of your post is to strongly disagree with the premise that a home such as you describe is unlikely to produce a child who is a bad influence.

    As far as the second part of your post, I would hope that not not only would such a person be ostracized, he would be, more importantly, watched very carefully.

    #879820
    ohr chodesh
    Member

    The idea that a home with a TV or unfiltered internet will always be strictly off-limits to the children (young adults or small children) is highly unlikely. A Yeshiva cannot risk an entire class of tinokos shel beis rabban being negatively influenced by one child in the class who lives in a home with TV or unfiltered internet. That child can literally bring multiple innocent children in his class off the derech with his negative influences from his contamination to television or unfiltered internet rachmana l’tzlon.

    #879821
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    The linfer this thread continues, the more my earlier point is proven.

    #879822
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    straw man

    #879823
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The idea that a home with a TV or unfiltered internet will always be strictly off-limits to the children (young adults or small children) is highly unlikely. A Yeshiva cannot risk an entire class of tinokos shel beis rabban being negatively influenced by one child in the class who lives in a home with TV or unfiltered internet. That child can literally bring multiple innocent children in his class off the derech with his negative influences from his contamination to television or unfiltered internet rachmana l’tzlon.

    Which, whether it’s true or not, is beside the point, because this thread isn’t really about TV or unfiltered internet. It’s about murder.

    The Wolf

    #879824
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I would hope that not not only would such a person be ostracized, he would be, more importantly, watched very carefully.

    Thank you, for finally giving a straight answer. At least someone can actually give one.

    Your answer now leads me to this follow-up question:

    We all know that suicide is worse than murder (for example, a murderer does not necessarily lose his portion in Olam HaBah, a suicide does). If a person who is considering murder should be ostracized, shouldn’t it also follow that someone considering something far worse (i.e. suicide) should also be ostracized and shunned from the community?

    The Wolf

    #879825
    Chulent
    Member

    Suicide isn’t intrinsically worse than murder. Its just that a suicide leaves no opportunity for teshuva, while a murderer can do teshuva.

    Someone “considering” suicide c’v can be dissuaded or change his mind. He should not be shunned. Nor should someone considering murder. He should be dissuaded and he should do teshuva.

    #879826
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Wolf,

    For all practical purposes, no, because someone contemplating suicide is highly unlikely to be doing so to be evil. He’s probably mentally ill, or at least very distraught.

    #879827
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Silly premise as it is well known that it is in very specific cases of mebaid atzmo lodaas that yo would say they have no chelek in olam habah. Most cases are when someone suffers mental illness. Perhaps you think we should ostracize the family members of someone suffering mental illness? That would be typically hypocritical of you.

    Another flaw in your argument is that the reason why people distance themselves in all your examples is because of how they or their children may be affected by the actions of the “evildoer” which clearly does not apply here. (don’t throw in emotions here that is not a valid reason).

    #879828
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Perhaps you think we should ostracize the family members of someone suffering mental illness?

    No, I don’t. Just because one puts forth a hypothetical argument does not mean that that is the position one actually supports in real life.

    That would be typically hypocritical of you.

    Just out of curiosity, if it were my position, why would it be hypocritical of me to say that?

    Suicide isn’t intrinsically worse than murder. Its just that a suicide leaves no opportunity for teshuva, while a murderer can do teshuva.

    There are opportunities that a suicide can do teshuva (not all methods of suicide produce instantaneous death) and yet we still say that they have no chelek in olam habah.

    Another flaw in your argument is that the reason why people distance themselves in all your examples is because of how they or their children may be affected by the actions of the “evildoer” which clearly does not apply here. (don’t throw in emotions here that is not a valid reason).

    Friends and family of people who commit or attempt suicide are certainly affected by the person’s actions. How you can say otherwise is quite puzzling.

    The Wolf

    #879829
    Chulent
    Member

    There are opportunities that a suicide can do teshuva (not all methods of suicide produce instantaneous death) and yet we still say that they have no chelek in olam habah.

    Those type of suicdes, where he may have done teshuva, such as if he sufficates himself with a bag – we in fact do assume he did teshuva (ie after he could no longer remove the bag but was still concious enough to do teshuva). And in such a suicide we dont bury him in the outskirts of the cemetary, as we would if it were an instant suicide.

    #879830
    pcoz
    Member

    Instead of commiting suicide they could just daven that they should die which we see is mutar from Yonah / Choni hameagel / Rebbi Yochanan

    #879831
    Chulent
    Member

    Wolf, I glanced at your profile and noticed that youve been fascinated with the topic of suicide for years now.

    Why?

    #879832
    pcoz
    Member

    contemplating sudicide is very commendable. One of the gerrer seforim (can’t remember which) says that really a person should want to die to be reunited with the Eybishter but it is a mitzvah to live. Reb Yisroel Salanter z”l says (Ohr Yisroel) that taavas hachaim is the yetzer hara.

    #879833
    Sam2
    Participant

    Chulent: Look at that Siman in the SH”A and all the later Poskim and T’shuvos (except the Besamim Rosh who we ignore but pay special attention to the Chassam Sofer-I don’t remember which Siman off the top of my head). Lema’aseh, we never treat anyone as a M’abeid Atzmo L’da’as for the burial differences. The cases in which it can happen are incredibly, incredibly limited.

    #879834
    Chulent
    Member

    The Chasam Sofer says IF there were extenuating circumstances (i.e. mental illness) that prompted the suicide, then we do not treat it as a halachic suicide. The CS does not exclude the possibility of some cases falling under the halachic penalties prescribed for a suicide.

    #879835
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Suicide vs. Murder

    Nowadays it is extremely rare for a rabbi to rule that a suicide falls into the category of ???? ???? ???? and not in the category of ???? ???? ??? ????. This is the kind of thing that shimush talmidei chachamim teaches a person.

    #879836
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Wolf,

    “Friends and family of people who commit or attempt suicide are certainly affected by the person’s actions. How you can say otherwise is quite puzzling.”

    The parenthetical addition at the end of the comment was specifically to address this. It was obvious you would mention it and is clearly not a factor in the discussion. Classic disregard of the fifth chelek.

    #879837
    Sam2
    Participant

    Chulent: That’s not the important Chasam Sofer. He says that Kavod Hachayim beats not doing Aveilus, and that if an “important family” will be Bazui because of it then you do a normal Kevura and everything. Since we can’t really define what an “important family” is, almost every Rov Lema’aseh will say to not treat it like a suicide so as not to embarrass the family.

    #879838
    2qwerty
    Participant

    Well in NY everyone needs a pull to get to a school and hopefully this person wouldn’t have anyone to help him get kids into schools. But if they move out of town like syag mentioned they would be taken to a school. Case in point D*ek.

    #879840
    Health
    Participant

    Wolf -“The Wolf – be allowed to send his kids to yeshiva? Or be a member of a shul? Or be allowed to participate in the community (or receive community aid and support) in any way?

    What if he actually (unsuccessfully) attempted murder?”

    What if he committed murder?

    I think Jews would ex-communicate these people, but noone believes that so and so could possibly do such a thing. We live in a world of denial and if you go tell people, no matter how high up they are, that so and so did a terrible crime, eg. killing, molestation, etc., they just don’t believe you.

    #879841
    Chortkov
    Participant

    These days, he isn’t an attempted murderer. Every single Aveirah in the world can be pinned on some sort of medical problem – for example a theif suffers from “kleptomania”… i don’t need to go into details. I’m sure within the next few years they will come up with an excuse why it is okay to murder.

    And to answer your question, Wolf – No, it is not to have an attempted murderer in a shul – he should be put in a cheirem, to say the least – if possible locked up in a prison or hospital somewhere. Or go to therapy (there is therapy available for every type of aveira as well)

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