July 11, 2011 10:46 am at 10:46 am #784869
Both are assur. Even if one can twist a scenario where one is “only” a dirabanan it is still assur (in fact, it might a bigger problem if someone says “its ONLY a dirabanan”). Whatever the case, this friend has apparantly straightened herself out. Why are we harping on how she USED TO act?
As for “echta viashuv” the mishna in yoma already tells us yom kippur is not michaper (not 100% certain what that means and how it applies…its been a while since I learned it – but whatever it means, it isn’t a good attitude to have).July 11, 2011 10:52 am at 10:52 am #784870
What did she lose? All those years of doing what you call acts against halacha, were years she lost out on zechusim etc…, yes she turned it around, good for her, in fact she gets schar for that.
What did you gain? All those zechusim, I wouldn’t minimize them in the least.
The bigger problem the way I see it, is that your attitude is off. You seem to imply that being straight during your formative years is a means to a goal of getting a wonderful spouse. It is a goal unto itself! I tell my own teenage children, don’t determine your actions based on whether this will get you a good shidduch, determine your course of action based on whether this is ratzon hashem and if it helps you grow in torah and yiras shamayim.July 11, 2011 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #784871
apushatayid~ I am also VERY chill. but, re: the teens- I am talking about hefker/chilled in the strongest sense of the word. I didn’t really wanna get too detailed in my explanation, but if you need further clarification: these kids are partying [again, to the fullest extent of the word] & physically all over each other… drinking, smoking, etc. I think the OP was trying to be discreet in her referring to her friend as ” veeeeery chilled out and did things that were not always according to Halachah standards.” I’ve seen it tooo many times– as I said previously: in B’klyn, upstate, in Israel, etc. maybe if you had Facebook & saw some of their pictures that they’ve posted you’d understand more.
hoping & praying that they all clean up their acts…..July 11, 2011 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #784872
Zahavasdad and Oomis, I am sorry, but you are so wrong. touching an erva with intention of getting pleasure is a lav min’HaTorah and is a yehareg ve’lo yavor. It is worse than issur of treif or basar be’chalav which are just regular lavim.
I would say that issur of touching a nidda be’zman ha’ze is not literally “die but don’t do it” (I am not disclosing the reason), but when it comes to a married woman or other arayos it is.July 11, 2011 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #784873
In life and especially with teenagers you sometimes have to pick your battles.
The teenagers are not really that mature, thats why when they get that first bit of freedom in Israel they take advantage of it.
You have to look at the bigger picture, the girl in the story turned out OK and in the end thats all that really matters.
I just look upon it as a lesson in life.
This thread should not be a thread in Halacha as much as how to raise teenagers especially those who might have a little rebellion .
One can yell at the teenagers all day Assur M’Arysa and Koreis etc, some it will work and some it wont. For the ones that it wont, many times its just best to wait it out until it passes. And it seems in most cases it ends up just fine.July 11, 2011 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #784874
on the ballParticipant
What did she lose by being chilled out? The daily angst and regret she no doubt has over that time spent rebelling against her Maker – if she is a true baalas tshuvah.
Have a look in Sharei Tshuvah of Rabenu Yonah. There’s no such thing as a free picnic for an adult of sound mind who made the wrong choices. If you live it up the wrong way when you’re young – the sins have to be purged somehow. Either through sincere tshuvah with the constant regret and tears or sadly other means…..July 11, 2011 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #784875
I don’t think there is only one best way for everyone. For people who have always done the right things throughout their lives, that is the best way for them to forge a relationship with G-d. For people who have strayed from the path and then found their way back on, that was the best way for them to forge their relationship with G-d. Everyone has their own path. The important thing is to learn from mistakes and make yourself a better person because of it.
There’s a line from a song I like that goes as follows:
“Sometimes you’ve got to be wrong, and learn from mistakes.
I live with serenity now, not self-righteous hate.”July 11, 2011 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #784876
MiddlePath, that song is wrong — a Ba’al teshuva has to have regret.July 11, 2011 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #784877
I’m familiar with facebook, the “scenes” you describe in the catskills, e”y etc. (I’m a father of 3 teenagers). I also have my own ideas why teens from “mainstream” yeshivas and beis yackovs end up this way. I think it starts with telling teens they are on the express to gehennom for going bowling with their friends of the same gender, (at a time when members of the opposite gender are not their no less) or playing basketball for an hour instead of using bein hasdarim to learn even more. It comes from weighing every action, thought and word spoken against “what will be with your shidduch!” threats from parents and teachers alike. Put anyone under enough stress and they will look to relieve themselves from it, whether you like it (or the methods chosen) or not. I think every parent should do what they feel is best for their own kids (with input from their rabbonim/rabbeim/madrichim who truly know these children) and not rely on “well thats what they say works”. Your child is not their child, and your teenager is not their teenager. Chanoch LiNaar Al Pi Darko does not mean making every child fit the cookie cutter mold (although I admit, it makes parenting in the short term a whole lot easier). do what is best for your kid, and ignore everyone else. Dont worry about the yentas or your childrens shidduchim. You raise healthy, wholesome torah true yidden, you will find them a shidduch (with apologies to NASI and their numbers game).July 11, 2011 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #784878
mdd, did I say anywhere one should not have regret for their mistakes? I merely said that if you make a mistake, you should learn from it. Don’t waste it and just wish you never did it. Take something positive from it. There’s a reason we all make mistakes. They are opportunities for us to grow.July 12, 2011 3:14 am at 3:14 am #784879
MiddlePath, what you are saying is a big chidush, and I do not know if I agree with it.July 12, 2011 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #784880
Its a chiddush to say one should learn from and grow from their mistakes, so that they wont do them again? I find that to be quite a chiddush 🙂
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