Son in law support

Just be prepared for 5 to 10 years turning into 30

I don’t think there’s any “accepted normal amount.”
Some people give $1,500. Some people give $1,800. Some people give $2,300.
I know someone who gives 0.
I know another person who gives $5,000.
The main thing is that the father in law is supposed to go broke.

Ask your Rav, but the norm would be for your future Son In Law to be able to sit and learn without distractions/concerns/worries etc from finances.

Check the story of the Taz and his father in law the Bach, whom he took to beth din for not providing meat, and instead supplying liver, which he said would take away from his concentration (important to note, the holy Taz himself said the reason was, not to win back the meat, he didn’t have an issue with that, though he worried that min hashamayim there would be a kitrug on his father in law for providing liver instead of meat which could be understood as a breaking the contractual agreement, so he took his father in law to Beth Din, so that Beth Din would pasken, taking away the kitrug).

Not a story to take into consideration MAYBE, but an interesting anecdote.

At the end of the day, you don’t need to provide a 5* Hotel experience, but if you’re serious about providing that support, you need to be clear what you are doing, are you supporting or providing?
The difference between the two is simple, supporting is making it easier, though not all financial conditions are on you, he would still have to support himself somewhat, however, providing, would mean you are guaranteeing his uninterrupted (from anything financial) learning, which is much bigger, it means anything cropping up is on you.

IN SHORT, there is no SET amount, but work it out yourself, wherever you are located (or where the future couple would reside) work out what the monthly typical AVERAGE rent is (not extravagant and not rundown), bills (ie electricity, gas, water etc), average norm for day to day costs (foodstuff, household items, sanitary, toiletries etc) and anything else fitting the normal average SUCH household, and you have the numbers!

Equally as important a question – what percentage of the schar that the son-in-law gets for learning is given in exchange for the support?

I daven every day for that zechus and opportunity to play out.

Yoreh Dea Siman 255:1
לעולם ירחיק אדם עצמו מהצדקה ויגלגל עצמו בצער שלא יצטרך לבריות וכן צוו חכמים עשה שבתך חול ואל תצטרך לבריות ואפי’ היה חכם מכובד והעני יעסוק באומנות ואפי’ באומנות מנוולת ואל יצטרך לבריות:
One should always avoid charity and rather roll in misery than to depend upon the help of man. And thus our Sages commanded, “Rather make thy Sabbath a week-day than be dependent on men.” And even though he be scholarly and respectable, let him engage in some occupation, even an unpleasant occupation, so as not to need the help of man.

and if you think support for learning is not tzedaka, i turn your attention to Yoreh Dea 251:3
הנותן לבניו ובנותיו הגדולים שאינו חייב במזונותיהם כדי ללמד את הבנים תורה ולהנהיג הבנות בדרך ישרה וכן הנותן מתנות לאביו והם צריכים להם הרי זה בכלל צדקה
Helping one’s grown up sons or daughters in need when he is not obliged to—in order to give his sons an opportunity of studying the Law, or to keep his daughters in the right path—and presenting gifts to one’s father in need,—all this comes under the general head of Charity.

besalel, I think you are right that supporting grown up children comes as tzedoka, but I am thinking that relying on (willing) in-laws (stop pretending that only fathers earn, especially when they were learning themselves) is different from relying on general tzedokah. Besides the relation, this could be an explicit, or implicit, condition of the marriage, so it is a contractual obligation, not tzedokah, see Bach story above. Of course, shver should help them plan independent future/

@NEVUAH are you well? You need serious help. Did you get nevuah from mouhamed the prophet??

@A Lamdin,

I am not sure if you have come across nevuah before, but I highly suspect he is a missionary, if you try and find his past posts, there is open kefirah against all our Gedolim, past and present, the Torah itself, Kadmonim etc etc, don’t engage with him, just ignore him, my anger is YWN doesn’t do anything about nevua….

@Ask_Any_Questions,

It was the Taz that took his own father in law the Bach to beth din, read the story, it is fascinating, but please see my original post, I specifically wrote that obviously it doesn’t have much impact on the question at hand, it was just an interesting related story that I mentioned.

@moshegreen18613,

That is not very Torah minded, to say the least.

Yes there are both types in Klal Yisrael, communities/people who believe/follow the work and koveya Itim path, and those that follow the sitting and learning all day path, both are of utmost importance to Klal Yisrael, both are paths mentioned and followed by all generations in the past and present.

The issue is, when people say they are in Kollel and really they are just not working to put it kindly, not much on the learning side, but someone who actually is sitting and learning? They deserve to live like a king, they are the next generation of Torah in Klal Yisrael!
Our Sefarim, from Chazal, and down throughout the genrations clearly talk about the difference between a son and daughter, and the daughter being supported by the father. Look in past generations, the system was to pay a large dowry for the daughter, so her future husband could sit and learn, and if not a smaller one was made, as the husband would be working, again that system is totally fine, so long the people follow it 100% from both sides….

why can’t we call it “son support” – let the father support!

for those who suggested that boy’s father support T’Ch: first, he already did bring him to certain level. 2nd Father did what he can, shver is choosing S-I-L and makes a contract.

pure, yes, thanks, I enjoyed the story.
> really they are just not working to put it kindly, not much on the learning side, but someone who actually is sitting and learning?
this is the core issue. As one frum rapper asks “if we have 1000x more learning than in times of Rambam, where are our 1000 Rambams!?”

in older times, rich guy will send a talmid chochom to investigate a prospective lamdan. In our times, maybe we should have a Gemora SAT? Are there any?
I am tired of calling up Rabonim who say “he is a great lamdan”, it is an embarrassment and haval hazman for all sides.

A lamdin? Boo hoo did I ask a question different then the status qoa. Gasp. Shows how much the culture has made you into a blind follower. Actually now I’m happy I asked this question I’ll ask it again. When you have an actual answer then we can have a real conversation.

Ive always found this to be an amusing subject. The entire concept of all boys expected to sit and learn full time is less than 75 years old. Why? Economics.
Prior to WW2, the social welfare system didn’t exist. The famous European yeshivas never had more than several hundred students because they were supported by constant fundraising and the Jewish communities didn’t have the wealth. As a result only the best of the best were admitted. Every one else had to work as the vast majority of parents could barely support themselves, let alone other families. Ironically, it was the post War entry of .many jews into the middle class that created the wealth that led to the current system.

I do find this thread amusing. Why does everyone feel the need to change the system? Do what you feel is right for your son/daughter. If you feel that your son should get supported, there are enough out there willing to support because “that is what is done”. If you don’t feel that way, I don’t think anyone will complain. If you are willing to support a son-in-law learning, in college, sitting on the street corner dealing… go for it. If not, there is someone out there for your daughter. I personally know families that do not support. They all made very nice shidduchim for their daughters, and none of them were particularly old when they got married. (they weren’t considered older kallahs). It is this challenging the “system” that has me puzzled. Just chill, as the younger generation says.

I am the father of 7 girls (and 2 boys). I have a few married and will BH be supporting 5-7 girls at the same time. That means I need 120-168k per year – AFTER TAX for support. besides paying for weddings and daily living. If HKBH blessed me with all boys, does that mean I would actually be able to retire one day? This idea that support is on the girl is sick. It should be 50/50. Boys should have to contribute. Very simple.

So, we are ok using a system meant for actual poor people, to, support our delusions….sounds like stealing
Didn’t realize we don’t keep the ten commandments

Read your own Ketubah. Does it say anything about a father in law supporting his son in law?

Contrary to what Charedim seem to believe, it does not say “marry me and you (the bride) will support us” or “marry me and your father will support us”. It says, and I quote:

“Be my wife according to the practice of Moses and Israel and I shall G-d willing cherish, honor, support and maintain you in accordance with the custom of Jewish husbands who cherish, honor, support and maintain their wives faithfully. And I here present you with the marriage gift of virgins, two hundred silver Zuzim, which belongs to you per the Torah, your food, clothing and necessities, and live with you as husband and wife according to universal custom”.

Either he gets paid by his kollel or he goes and gets a job like anyone else.

I heard that in order to live in accodance to principles of reality things cannot be inversed. And inversing the roles actually leads to negitive consequences cuz it’s not following the natural way of things. This is from someone who is a kabblaist type person learned in certain spiritual principles, who has to unhook people from shaidim, which only gets a stronghold into peoples lives because they are not living in alignment with the natural order of things. I’m not saying the lifestyle isnt beautiful, I definitely can respect the beauty of the lifestyle, but anytime we inverse things it has spiritual consenquences

a gvir suggested to R Shteinman to pay double to recruit best students for the kollel. R Shteinman refused, saying that real Torah comes from learning in poverty. So, to ensure your dear son in law success – don’t pay too much and make sure he is not double dipping into welfare as a single father or overusing medinah payments. (I think if you exlpain R Shteinman’s logic to perspective chasonim, you’ll end up with a real learner!)

Zsk, I understand that when you are entitled to a benefit, you can volunteerly not get it, at least temporarily. As long as it is all Ehrlicher, there is no problem here. Also, a woman can select to be self sustained and not depend on husband’s support, it is in maseches ketubos somewhere