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I saw this idea in a Binah or Mishpacha, or something, letter to the editor, but it’s a good one.
See, the problem is like this: There is a very big difference between a 6 year old and a 7 year old. So when the kids are in pre-1-A, the ones born in January are way advanced of the December and November kids. And this sets the younger kids back, and it compounds on itself in future years.
According to Freakonomics, a study showed that Canadian NHL players are mostly from Jan-March because of this dynamic in the kids hockey leagues. And a similar study found similar results in elite universities.
So the letter writer suggests that schools that have more than one parallel class should divide the classes up by age. And have the Jan-Jun kids in one class and the July-Dec kids in the other class.
I think this is a really good idea. I encourage any of you out there who are primary school administrators to consider this.
There are some schools that already do this.
Boy, that was quick.
it’s gladwell not levitt. get your pseudoscientists straight.
lol st. john’s.
I’m pretty sure Yeshiva Ketana of Passaic and possibly other large schools already do this, presumably for logistical reasons.
FTR, that would completely backfire, because if you’re really separating them because the older kids will do better, once the classes are separated, the older kids will continue to do better and the gap will only get even bigger. I happen to be a year-end baby and if I’d ended up in the weaker class or the class below I would’ve gone BALLISTIC long before now.
And Gladwell is a total hedgehog. He’s a fantastic journalist but I hate his books.
FTR, that would completely backfire, because if you’re really separating them because the older kids will do better, once the classes are separated, the older kids will continue to do better and the gap will only get even bigger.
I think the theory is that the weaker kids will only feel inferior to their classmates.
DY: And then what? Does that mean you should hold them back and prevent them from achieving as much as the smarter kids? Besides, weaker students don’t always benefit from only being in a class with weaker students- you have to deal with all kinds of people in your life. The same goes for the stronger students.
And remember, Gladwell’s theory is about physical development, in which case it makes a lot of sense that a kid who has 6 more months to grow would be bigger and bulkier than a younger kid. But plenty of smart people were born in July and on- in fact, chances are, it’s pretty close to 50% (if you comb through the records and it’s significantly different, MAYBE we’ll talk).
PBA: But a good teacher makes sure the kids understand. If the older kids are actually smarter, then they’ll naturally move ahead more quickly- unless you’ll want them to artificially stop.
You have also not presented an iota of proof that a few months’ difference really makes a kid smarter.
All I can say is that in my elementary school class, the valedictorian was born in October (younger end) and the salutatorians were born in December (older end) and August. (None of them were me, btw.)
Are there statistics that show that kids born in the later months actually perform at a lower level than older kids? I’ve never seen it, and while I’d say that Gladwell’s not a great source because he cherry-picks, I don’t seem to remember him even mentioning a classroom component in Outliers.
Pre-1-A: What is it?
How is it different than kindergarten?
Pre-1A is NewYorkJewishese for the year before first grade, which the rest of the world calls kindergarten. Kindergarten, in NY Jewish circles, is the year before Pre-1A. I have no idea where Pre-1A comes from. Pre-1 makes sense, but what’s the A about?
PBA: While I haven’t yet met my future kids, I don’t think they will be serving yours French fries. But if it makes you feel cool to say so, then whatever.
Anyway, if they did do a study like that then sure. I’d love to see it. But for the purposes of this discussion, we don’t yet know that for sure.
And seriously, NONE of your arguments fight for separating kids by age in the SAME grade- if they’re all capable of doing it at age six, then it shouldn’t make a difference about the class configuration. Your argument seems to be to double the number of grades and make smaller grade increments- a COMPLETELY different idea (and one which, upon further reflection, actually could make sense). If that’s not what you meant, it’s really what your arguments look like. Putting kids into a different class where they don’t have the pressure but learn the SAME EXACT THINGS doesn’t make sense, because if they’re all capable of learning the same things at the same pace then the point is moot. If not, then as I said in my FIRST post you’re only furthering the educational gap.
And by the way, I also read in a book that tracking leads to serious issues among students. (Actually, I could probably find you the title if I look around- I did this topic for a school debate assignment- but still, your anonymous sources are worth just as much as mine are.)
Writersoul, I don’t understand why you don’t get that six year olds will suffer self esteem issues by being lumped with seven year olds.
Thank you, Yehudayona. I always wondered about that “A” myself.
PBA, don’t listen to the guys who can’t understand what you’re suggesting and instead ridicule. Dont give up so easily! They themselves probably could have benefitted from exactly what you are suggesting. What you’re saying makes a lot of sense when you consider child development. And many parents today see this too but since they can’t change the system they opt to leave their kids back. Many october kids are now being left back to give them an advantage. Personally I dont think it’s fair to the younger kids in the grade because now the age span is even greater than a year! If schools had the courage to do what you are suggesting, kids would be grouped with kids at their developmental level — it has nothing to do with intellegence! The younger kids are not academically weaker because they are less capable, but because they are being forced to perform at the same level as kids a year ahead of them.
And to those who claim that a good teacher can teach to all levels at the same time, it’s very rare. Usually someone is losing out. Either it’s too slow for the kids who grasp things faster (because they are developmentally ready to grasp it!) or it’s too fast for the younger kids.
My daughter’s school already does this and it’s wildly successful. All the parent support it. Unfortunately in my sons’ yeshiva they group by location instead of age. Why children need to be in class with 25 close neighbors is beyond me. The principal admitted liking the idea of grouping by age but he said the parent body wouldn’t support it because they like the convenience and the predictability of grouping by location. I wish he had the courage to divide the classes by age. I believe it would lead to fewer behavior problems both in the kids who are acting out because they’re bored and for the kids who are acting out because the lesson is over their head.
Okay, people.
I was born in October. For the purposes of this discussion, I will say that I was one of the smarter kids in the class.
In my first grade class (which was grouped ENTIRELY RANDOMLY), we had four reading groups. I was in the highest group. (Actually, I knew how to read already, but that doesn’t matter, because since I was a tiny little five year old when school started I MUST have been intimidated by all those big six-year-olds who didn’t know how yet just because they were a few months older than me.) With me in that group, if I remember correctly, were girls born in August, October, December, March, and probably a bunch more equally scattered around the calendar.
Look, intuitively, what you’re saying makes sense. BUT:
– schools don’t typically point out to the other kids which are older and which are younger. No kid is going to be, “Yenty is older than me, so I’ll never be able to read like her!”
– check out reading groups in school, and see if the higher groups REALLY have more older kids. Maybe they do, but I’d be skeptical.
– what you’re really saying is track the kids, so that the “dumber” kids don’t have to be discouraged by the “smarter” kids. I have my issues with tracking, but this is quite frankly the stupidest way to track kids I have ever heard of. Unless the classes are shuffled after a while, considering that if the lower class really has some less intelligent kids than the older one it really will move more slowly, if there are the occasional “smart kids” shoved into that lower class SOLELY because they are on the younger end of the scale, they are now permanently stuck in the “lower” class.
The merits and pitfalls of tracking in general are discussed much more effectively in other forums by more qualified people than I, but this is merely another method, and one a lot more arbitrary. There are plenty of smarter kids born in January and November, just as there are plenty of “dumber” kids born in February and October. By mixing the classes by “developmental level,” you are setting the younger kids- placed in the lower class by a fluke of birth at a permanent disadvantage by putting them in a class that will always move more slowly if the kids are really not at the same level.
Do you always want your kids sheltered and not facing challenges? Do you really only want your kid to see people like him/her? (Oh, right, this is a frum audience. But still.) In life, we need to deal with people of all types and learn in all types of conditions.
I’m too tired to really think of more stuff, but while I think that in theory this is a good idea, and while I think that it may not be so bad to use birth month as a criteria for class placement without giving a thought to the academics, a kid is not doomed to failure for seeing an older or smarter kid doing better than he/she does. And that smarter kid may easily not be older.
Signed, an October baby who did quite well for herself.
Ok, an October baby did well, that debunks the whole theory.
Don’t know anything about the studies being referred to, and don’t think it interests me either. But for anyone who is curious, I was born in October, one of the youngest in my class. I managed to be editor in chief of my high school yearbook (a major job in my school) and valedictorian in seminary (one of top 4 marks; second if anyone is curious). I don’t feel too hurt by the fact that I was younger than most. Not that it means anything, but just an anecdotal evidence
The point is not that younger children are dumber than the ones a couple of months older than them. The point is that at such a young age kids make tremendous developmental strides in a short amount of months. Hence the idea of dividing young kids up according to age. Actually, where I live, they do it in the boys school and the girls and it makes a huge difference. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but in general maturity and acquiring basic fundamental concepts are better achieved and received in classes divided by age.
Usually by second grade they mix the classes and you have all months in every grade.
writersoul, YKP only does that for kindergarten. by P1A, its not by age anymore.
And I am a december baby — truly one of the youngest in my class — and I graduated with honors. That’s still not the point. Of course at some point age evens out. A 70 year old and a 70 1/2 year old are not developmentally different. But at young ages, such as 5,6,7, development happens at such a rapid pace that there is a huge difference between a seven year old and a just 6 year old. It is unfair that we lump them together and tell them both that we expect them to equally succeed. It’s not only about academics. It’s also what we expect of them socially. The older kids in the class are often the ones more self confident in social play while the younger ones are more easily intimidated. It’s rare that you’d find a youngest in the class truly bullying the older kids. Younger boys may want to still climb on the jungle gym while the older ones have already moved on to playing ball. It’s developmentally appropriate for the younger boy to still want to climb and slide, but he’ll be teased as a baby for it. Similarly, younger girls may still want to play house during recess but the older ones are on to jump rope. The house players are deemed “babies”. Grouping kids by age allows kids the freedom to act their age and be accepted for it. That does wonderful things for their self confidence and, therefore, their ultimate success.
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