October 24, 2017 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1389222
but if it were possible to do so within halacha I would propose the following…
I am well aware that was done by other denominations
Was it a success for the heterodox denominations?October 24, 2017 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1389226
I am very well aware that davening in English is permitted, however its just not done and its frowned upon.
But that doesnt mean some people might benefit from such a serviceOctober 24, 2017 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1389231
The failure of other denominations was due to alot of factors.
Considering the OTD crisis and the “Orhtoprax jew” even in more charedi communities One cant nessasarity say not changing was a success either. if you call 85% (I dont know the real number, but we can all pretty agree its not 100%) a success, then it was a success.October 24, 2017 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1389234
What’s 85%?October 24, 2017 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1389239
85% is my guess on the number of people davening with Full Kavanah in a orthodox shul, Might be higher , might be lower. But as an estimate from OTD rates its probably not far off
Anyone talking or otherwise engaging in activities not related to Davening would be included in the 15% Not davening with kavanahOctober 24, 2017 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1389251
Then I would unfortunately have to estimate less than 85%.
Regardless, I don’t see how it relates to my point that your idea is likely to decrease religiosity, not increase it.October 24, 2017 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1389258
Tom Dick n HarryParticipant
One of the things The Chasam Sofer was fighting against in his war against Reform, was changing the language of davening. He fought against changes even that were not against halacha. And he fought it fiercely.October 24, 2017 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1389359
The enemy today is not the reform, but rather ApathyNovember 13, 2017 6:25 am at 6:25 am #1401937
whats gonna be??November 13, 2017 8:21 am at 8:21 am #1401985
The little I knowParticipant
Actually, most shuls daven too quickly. The problem lies with the davening, not the talking. Here’s my take.
Most of us had zero formal education, or even role modeling that taught us to properly oriented to tefiloh. Boys’ yeshivos rarely, if ever, have classes on tefiloh. Some girls’ schools do, but the talking problem we are addressing is on the men’s side of the mechitzah. What we do have is a proclamation of “don’ts”. The huge published signs about the issur to talk during davening and laining, the custom signs in some shuls about how talking from beginning to end of davening is not tolerated, the drashos about this, the police who patrol the shul to admonish those that talk, and the literature and videos from various rabbonim on the subject are all versions of “don’t”. There seems to be some impact, but the discussion here implies that the impact is minimal.
I propose something that was alluded to in several prior comments here. Instead of rebuking talkers, instead of highlighting the don’ts (I am keenly aware of the halacha that tells us גוערים בו), instead of hanging signs or policing, I note that the worst aveiroh is not the talking part but the “not davening” part. If we could encourage a proper attitude toward tefiloh, if we could educate everyone on how precious it is to be able to talk to Hashem directly, being invited into His Home three times a day, if we could understand what we ask, if we could appreciate that our praises to Him are benefitting us, etc., the problem is solved. People should socialize, and there is ample time before and after davening to accomplish that. To waste the opportunity to speak to Hashem is a terrible loss, and that direction of education (by example plus teaching) would likely make a massive change.
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