November 23, 2008 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1090972
Joseph, your argument that the Rambam’s advanced knowledge of the lunar interval indicates that the science of chazal was accurate has a big problem. The Rambam himself says that he got his cheshbon from the Greeks (Kiddush Hachodesh. 17,24). Furthermore the Rambam says there that any fact which is proven by science, even by non-Jews, carries as much halachic weight as the divrei neviim.
Your argument the the eggs of kinim are not considered alive is also problematic, as what are they, plants? Also the Rambam and nosei keilim in Hilchos Shabbos don’t say that they reproduce but just are not halachically alive, rather the term used is einan parin vravin. The same is used regarding a mouse that arises from dirt. (BTW how is that not a problem vis a vis mayseh breishis, if animals can pop out of dirt anytime?)
Furthermore, in Pesachim 94b the Jewish sages said, “By day the sun passes beneath the firmament and at night above it.” The sages of the nations maintained, “By day beneath the firmament and at night beneath the ground.” Rebbe said, “Their opinion seems more correct than ours.” (Translation from Rabbi Slifkin’s sources page.) Chazal themselves admitted that they were wrong on science and the non-Jewish scientists were right. (Do you believe that the sun goes above the sky at night?)
The Rambam says that there are these spheres in which all the heavenly bodies are embedded, and there is no space in between. This simply doesn’t fit with what we know today. However, the greatness of the Rambam was that he understood that we continue to grow in science, and accept its proofs from wherever they come.
Your citation that Chazal knew the world was round is also not a proof, because Tosfos in Avodah Zara says that the way Chazal knew it was round was that Alexander Mokdon the Greek went very high up above the Earth (I have no clue how) and saw it was a ball (Avodah Zara 41a). Chazal got this from the non-Jews.
Now I am not saying evolution is a proven fact, as it makes untestable claims that would require millions of years to verify, the same as I am not convinced of global warming, man-made or otherwise. I say to be open-minded.
But one thing I will say is that your claim that all the science of Chazal is true and that one who believes otherwise is going to gehennom is very hard to accept. When did this end? Clearly the Rambam’s science was incorrect (check also his calculations of the relative sizes of the earth and moon and sun in Yesodei Hatorah 3,8. Rambam says Earth is 40 times bigger than Moon. We know the Earth’s diameter is 8,000 miles, while moon’s is 2,000 miles. Doesn’t seem to work either in diameter or volume. Sun’s diameter is 800,000 miles, while Rambam says sun is 170 times bigger than earth, which also doesn’t quite work in diameter, and in volume would be far off. So by the time of the Rambam this was no longer true.
Yet if you claim that it is true, and somehow the Rishonim and Acharonim down until today did know everything about science, then this is a verifiable claim. Let us simply give a test to any talmidei chachamim of your choice on known and testable facts in science. We can construct circuits and test on the voltages currents and transfer functions like college and grad students take. We can construct tests in biology on gene cloning and reading of electrophoresis gels and Western blotting, 3-D protein structure, etc.
We can test in organic synthesis in chemistry or in quantitative analysis. We can also give the tests in English to Israeli Talmidei Chachamim who should know English since that is also a chochma. (Chazal knew 70 languages.) While you will probably claim this is demeaning, yet we are allowed to test neviiim. It would be a nes goluy, and a tremendous kiddush hashem that nobody in the whole world could possibly deny. It would demonstrate the greatness of those who study Torah.
Sadly, while this would be great if achievable, we are all only mortals. Chochma is infinite, but human capacity is not. Even the greatest scientists only know their one small area of expertise, but little of other scientific subjects.
Emes and anivus requires that we respect the knowledge of others, and not claim that we miraculously know it all. At any rate, this is easlily testable, as above.November 23, 2008 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1090973
If there is anyone here who really believes they are a decendant of monkey, please speak up.November 23, 2008 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #1090974
Again you post a write up that is full of fallacies,
there IS a treasure trove of transitional fossils of humans and other species.
There had NEVER been any evidence found of humans interacting with even the smallest plant eating dinosaures (and there were plenty of them that would be more harmless then modern farm animals so they would have interacted with them just like they did with evrey other animal that lived around them)
and just from these layers (of gnerations of animals living and dying) it is apparent that the world is much much older then 6000 years old,
how would it be neccessary to (and were is the proof that hashem did create) the fossils of hundreds of thousands of species that never exsisted just to make the world fully grown?
there are many other ways that are used to date things besides carbon dating such as varves, ice layers, stars thousands of light years away (things such as supernovas that we are just able to see today that couldnt be seen 5000 years ago because there light has just reached us from more then 6000 light years away) among many others
and common ancestry is proven from way more then just the fossil evidenceNovember 23, 2008 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1090975
Charles R. DarwinMember
“If there is anyone here who really believes they are a decendant of monkey, please speak up.”
I do. If you look at Homo sapiens sapiens today, you will see plenty of variety – Caucasians, Africans, Pygmies, Orientals, etc. And we, as a species, are only about 100,000 years old. Do you really think Adam and Eve possessed the chromosomal varieties necessary to bear these multicolored fruit? Obviously not. If so, then in 6 million years Australopithecus afarensis can becom Homo sapiens sapiens.November 23, 2008 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #1090976
Ignorance is bliss, especially if cloaked in misplaced frumkeit. What would happen to all this supposed Emunah Peshutah if G-d Himself would say – dodo, I have you all the evidence to see My great work, and you managed to constrict it to a box that you yourself know is way to small to contain it.November 23, 2008 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #1090977
Enough! Everyone is sick of this thread going in circles.June 9, 2015 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #1090978
wow, a no name poster
anyways I saw this on noaa’s website
NOAA: Below-normal Atlantic Hurricane Season is likely
however climate changers say that hurricanes will be stronger due to climate changeJune 10, 2015 12:01 am at 12:01 am #1090979
and is joseph a stomach doc?June 10, 2015 6:15 am at 6:15 am #1090980
ca: People really need to learn about sample sizes.June 10, 2015 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1090981
To “Charles R. Darwin” who believes “If you look at Homo sapiens sapiens today, you will see plenty of variety – Caucasians, Africans, Pygmies, Orientals, etc. And we, as a species, are only about 100,000 years old. Do you really think Adam and Eve possessed the chromosomal varieties necessary to bear these multicolored fruit? ” — ACTUALLY there is minimal variety among humans. Based on DNA, human variety is similar to the variety among poodles – some black, some white, some big some small — one tribe in Africa is a bit different, analagous to Portugese Water Dogs. The lack of variety is compatible with the Jewish tradition that all humans are closely related with recent common ancestry (unlike seculars who tend to think that “race” is something really significant and meaningful). Apparently major changes occur very rapidly as noted in adaptations to local climate factors (e.g. among people’s in high areas which only became inhabited in historical times) – suggesting that “evolution” is not based on random mutation but is steered, and does NOT lead to brand new species.June 10, 2015 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #1090982
Joseph- you are missing a few words here. Macro evolution and micro evolution. Macro is what the goyim call the big bang theory, humans descending from monkeys, one species becoming another and how the world has no intervention from any God. We as frum Jews know this is incorrect. We know HaShem created the world, we know Adam, the first man was created from dust and tzelem elokim and we know that HaShem continues to affect the world around us. We also know HaShem has different time bounds than us. With regards to fossils that have been proven to be “millions of years old”, maybe that’s so, but not in human years. That is our Torah. That is our emunah. We know the way goyim see the creation of the world is wrong. And that is where you are right.
Micro evolution on the other hand is the small mutations that occur in your body that make you different from the next person. It’s the reason cancer occurs. It’s the reason you have different types of people. It’s simply DNA mutations that create differences which could be small in the moment but could make a larger difference after a number of years. Yea HaShem is obviously orchestrating those mutations as well, but you can’t deny that they are happening.
So yea evolution seems like a scary word, and I know you are a person completely opposed to secular culture. And I respect that. But as someone who’s taken a university course (cuz it was a requirement) in biology and evolution, and came out frum and with a striker sense of emunah and appreciation for real Torah, I hope I’ve clarified that for you.June 10, 2015 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #1090983
Micro evolution on the other hand is the small mutations that occur in your body that make you different from the next person. It’s the reason cancer occurs. It’s the reason you have different types of people.
if that was true than certain types of people a genetically disposed to cancer while most others are not, you also have to realize, you agree to humans being on this earth for 5775 years, you also agree to the first 2500 years being cancer free (at least), therefore your small mutations had to occur during the last 3000 years, yet virtually everyone could get cancer?June 10, 2015 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1090984
Coffee addict- I don’t agree to that. Mutations happen in everyone and anyone. In fact mutations are occurring right now but in most healthy people, their bodies will kill off anything new, not in line with the rest of the body. It’s a huge miracle more people don’t get cancer. I don’t know what happened 2000 years ago regarding illnesses, or mutations in general (a mutation doesn’t need to be a bad thing).
I’m confused at your argumentJune 10, 2015 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1090985
I don’t want to get in this in a substantive way, but just to address your parenthetical point. Yes mutation in somatic (body in general) cells probably happen with frequent regularity. But as far as my (somewhat dated) knowledge goes there has never been established a case of a beneficial mutation. And in germ (reproductive) cells there has been documented only one case of a beneficial mutation. And even that had a strong negative aspect. And the positive aspect only applied in a very limited climactic region.June 10, 2015 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1090986
Coffee addict- I don’t agree to that. Mutations happen in everyone and anyone.
which part are you addressing
In fact mutations are occurring right now but in most healthy people, their bodies will kill off anything new, not in line with the rest of the body
so this statement
It’s the reason you have different types of people.
is a good mutation or a bad mutation and if it’s good why didn’t everyone get it and if it’s bad that means some people we’re weaker thats why they turned black (or yellow)?
i’m just as confused at yours
i never really understood scienceJune 10, 2015 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1090987
When a mutation is beneficial it goes unnoticed.July 8, 2015 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #1090988
not true- we noticed when people were able to sart eating dairy because of a mutation in the lactose enzyme…June 4, 2017 7:50 am at 7:50 am #1289032
Three cheers for the President for pulling out of the Paris Agreement.June 4, 2017 10:33 am at 10:33 am #1289181
Reasons to pull out of agreement :
1. Obama set it up so that the Senate did not have to
ratify. It. No one person should commit the country
to such a treaty with huge ramifications
2. It was unfair to American workers and the economy.
3. Obama committed us to a virtually immediate
shutdown of coal mining and coal fired electric
4. China, on the other hand, would be permitted to
burn coal and build more plants for 13 years
5. India would be allowed to build more plants AND
double their current level of coal mining
6. We would would also have to bribe India dollars
payments of hundreds of billions of dollarsJune 6, 2017 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1290571
On evolution, of either variety, the math doesn’t work out. I saw ( a very long time ago in Challenge (1973) one scientist noting that for an ameba to change to a fish, for the fish to grow legs., for any of these moves, there are very large numbers of small gene changes that must occur, and in linear fashion. For all the moves to work out to a positive end point is 10 to the 68th power in likelihood.
Another failure is that even if you admit an earth billions of years in age, there is not enough time for those gene shifts to happen . To say that there were accelerated processes puts the odds at way beyond the above likelihood.June 7, 2017 1:23 am at 1:23 am #1291040
The U.S. joins the esteemed club of nations that didn’t agree to the Paris climate agreement. The others are Nicaragua and Syria. Nicaragua said it was too weak.
As regards the use of coal in the U.S. as a fuel for generating electricity, it’s disappearing due to economics, not due to politics. Natural gas is simply cheaper. A few days ago, PSEG (NJ’s largest electrical utility) announced it was closing its last two coal-fired plants.June 7, 2017 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1291730
☢️ 🚭 ☣️ Rand0m3x 🧠🕴️🎲Participant
According to a video by a respected pundit:
It was good for American workers and the economy.
Each country is free to set its own goals (no specific practical
obligations are part of the deal’s terms*).
China is planning to close most of its coal plants and not build more.
*With the exception of contributions to the Green Climate Fund (I think).June 7, 2017 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #1291732
☢️ 🚭 ☣️ Rand0m3x 🧠🕴️🎲Participant
Macro [evolution] is what the goyim call the big bang theory…
The Big Bang Theory is unrelated to evolution. (The scientific community didn’t
like the Big Bang Theory and accepted it when it was proven by evidence.)
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