The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests

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  • #1649019

    This young man was not killed in battle. He was killed patroling the territories where idf soldiers do not belong. If the settlers want to parade around the west bank, let them do their own policing.

    #1649069

    MrSarahLevine613
    Participant

    MrSarahLevine613 is a “mister”. (I apologize. I explained in another post how this happened. But — indeed — i am a he.)

    #1649080

    MrSarahLevine613
    Participant

    “This young man was not killed in battle. He was killed patroling the territories where idf soldiers do not belong. If the settlers want to parade around the west bank, let them do their own policing.”

    Wow.

    There are people who agree with you regarding whether Jews should live in territories that were not under our control prior to 1967. Obviously much has been written about this issue. I have nothing to add that has not been said.

    I am curious whether you believe whether people who “parade around” the Old City of Jerusalem, Ramat Eshkol, Chevron, Maale Adumim and the Gush should also do their own policing ? If not — how do you draw the distinction?

    #1649037

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “In another thread — i wondered aloud which was the better (or worse) type of OTD (no longer orthodox). Was it what we seem to see more in the yeshiva community — with drugs, alcohol — but less than what we see in the MO community where kids just becoming non-religious professionals?”
    That’s actually a very interesting question, although I will say I don’t know what it has to do with this thread. You could make the point that the Yeshivish OTD people you’re describing are worse in that they actively make a chillul hashem to continuing to look frum while being genuinely bad people (I’m assuming you’re referring to the “one their way off the derech” folks). In addition, it seems like when Charedim do go fully off the derech, they end up being much more anti-religion than their MO counterparts.

    I’m not ready to say that these trends aren’t just a function of location, however. If you go OTD in Brooklyn, you’re assimilating into the urban culture around you. If you go OTD in Westchester, you’re assimilating into that culture.

    “But nonetheless, this canard that there is a majority out to destroy Torah in israel is just false. ”
    I mean, this is obviously the point where we flat out disagree. I would say, if you want to see it from our standpoint, consider this: by your admission the majority of Israelis are still secular, the make-up of the knesset is overwhelmingly secular and gives more representation to Muslim and anti-religious parties than it does to Jewish parties. With this being said, how is it false that the majority is secularist? The numbers just don’t seem the agree with you. You can point to the instances when the state laxed up and became more religion-friendly, but we will just counter that that never would have happened without unwavering, Charedi resistance. Government-wise, Israel has always exercised its lack of freedom of speech at the expense of Jews to protect Muslims (eg. the “hate wedding”). Muslims can say much worse about the Jews and serve in the knesset and be “heroic activists.” Most extreme Zionists like Kahanists agree with these issues, but I will go farther to say that that is not a “Jewish State.” If anything, that’s an Islamic state that happens to be run by secular Jews. Why would we have a chiyuv to support and fight for that?

    #1649382

    There are many ways of contributing to a society. Do we count only gov. programs or in fact are gov. programs the least efficient way of giving something. Are we communists? Why should charedim be in the military if the military doesn’t need them? The military doesn’t need half the soldiers it has.

    #1649383

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    @MrSarahLevin I understand you think we should all take responsibility to serve in the army. According to the logic I would also think we should take responsibility to learn. All men technically have a responsibility to both, and if half the population is shirking their responsibility to study and learn, than someone has to pick up the slack.

    About Chareidim in general and the army, and “not being allowed to go out and work”, yes there is an ideal where we all would not have to do these things, but life isn’t like that anymore. Some boys who aren’t thriving in yeshiva are suitable for a hesder program, and full time learning isn’t cut out for everyone, and working in an area you love isn’t assur and there’s many different ways to find a proper place to study a trade. The Torah teaches us to do chinuch to tailor it to the needs of the child.

    It isn’t as black and white and some of you make our society out to be.

    #1649413

    Avi K
    Participant

    Trying, are you a heretical Jew or an Arab troll? Judea and Samaria are Jewish lands. The soldiers there are conducting a war with Fakestinian squatters.

    #1649414

    Avi K
    Participant

    MrSarah, I can’t find the post.

    #1649377

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    I would like to repeat the gist of a conversation I overheard at work- a place filled with university educated people who tend to lean to the left politically and have very little to do with religion. One mentioned a talk she went to where the speaker said that if you want to know whether a person was a leftist or a rightist, ask them if they define themselves as Israeli or as Jewish first. The rightist answer Jewish. It is telling that the right has dominated to government in the recent past. A Dati Leumi (RZ) women then gave her opinion that the leftist don’t think of themselves as Jewish at all. The others sitting around the table- all secular, Chilonim. strongly disagreed and resented that conclusion. They said that although they would identify as Israeli first, they are proud to be Jewish as well.
    To me (who remained quiet during this conversation) that was very encouraging- even those who seem the furthest from their heritage still want to be Jewish and have that connection. I think this is the attitude that MrSL613 is referring to.

    #1649427

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    I forget the source. Is it the gemara?or the rambam…not sure
    …anyways, it says “what is considered an apikores? Someone who says that talmidei chachamim only learn for themselves. ”

    Idiots. Am haaratzim.
    Apikorsim….

    #1649429

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    Avi k- you compared the current gedolei hador to meraglim.
    Dus iznt neies.

    #1649687

    Avi K
    Participant

    Trying, who says that the military does not need them? How long did you serve in the IDF ands what rank did you attain?

    Takes, where do I say that? I did quote the Gra and Rav Teichtal as saying that the sin of the spies can even infect those who hold on to the Torah (the Gra also says that even a talmid chacham could be from the erev rav) in other threads but I did not mention anyone specific. You are motzi shem ra on me.

    #1649883

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, multiple top Israeli generals have clearly stated on the record that the Israeli military has more than enough soldiers and personnel as is, and does not need as many draftees at they’re already receiving — let alone to draft additional people who were heretofore exempt.

    #1650039

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, on the contrary. there is a very strong need in both the IDF and civilian for high-tech people. This is a field where people with analytical ability honed by Gemara learning can make major contributions.

    #1651796

    MrSarahLevine613
    Participant

    AviK: I was referring to my postings in “Is the Yeshiva Community Wrong?”

    #1651848

    Haimy
    Participant

    We believe that a) the army is not an acceptable place for any yeshiva bachur regardless of how little he’s learning.

    B) the nachal Hareidi was only intended for boys who would otherwise become mechalilei Shabbos.

    C) The yeshiva draft law places all Yidden in E.Y. In danger by weakening limud Hatorah, which is our main zechus.

    D) If Nachal Hareidi boys were killed, it signifies we need to do Teshuva & accrue more zechusim.

    E) We certainly protest the draft which would leave us with less zechusim & thereby more soldiers dying Ch”vsh.

    F) We don’t make a specific misheberach for Israeli soldiers because we need to be clear that it’s existence is a terrible bedieved, only for boys that would otherwise go otd. We have them in mind by acheinu other general tefilos for klall Yisroel.

    Those that died protecting klal yisroel are kedoshei elyon.

    #1651859

    manitou
    Participant

    Haimy

    When you say “we believe “ who exactly is your “we”?
    I certainly don’t believe that you don’t need an army and neither did any of our leaders ever think that way? I don’t remember seeing that the chashmonaim said we should learn more, rabbi Akiva supported bar kochba and of course the whole time of the shoftim and bayis rishon.

    #1651883

    ZionGate
    Participant

    @haimy,
    “…..limud Hatorah, which is our main zechus….”

    Nobody else learns Torah except for yeshiva bocharim?
    You’re buying into the commandeered idea that only they have zechusim, and only their Torah protects EY.
    What about those who work, find time to learn pre or post a hard day’s work? There’s also chessed, tzedakah done by ordinary Yidden , so many even , lifnei mishurat hadin… others who say Tehillim and daven whenever they can.. Don’t their zechusim count? Maybe it’s their zechusim who protect? Who can say, no?
    We’re not capable of measuring zechusim. It’s wonderful that young bocharim learn, but it’s not meant for the majority of the masses. Our greatest rabbonim, tanaim, amaoraim worked for a living. This style of everybody continuing in kollel is a relatively new phenomenon, mostly people worked and the Jewish people survived. If it’s a serious bochar and if he can be supported by family or donors of means, then by all means.
    ” Yoter Yegia Kapo min Yerei Shomayim”…. I saw a vort on this that explains ” Greater is the Yirei Shamayim who toils for his food , than the Yirei Shomayim who doesn’t.”
    The world stands on Torah, Avodah & Gemilat Chasadim… All of this is Torah and they all provide zechusim.

    #1651901

    manitou
    Participant

    tryingtostaycalm

    What are you talking about?
    Did you forget about מצות ישוב ארץ ישראל?

    #1651966

    TAS
    Participant

    Another zionist forum…. Sign….
    let me guess, all the MO want everyone to serve and all the Yeshivish/Chardiem don’t want to serve…..

    No further comments necessary. No one will change their mind. On a side note, Being mager tov has nothing to protesting being drafted.

    #1651972

    Haimy
    Participant

    “WE” are the yidden who believe in the Torah’s commandment to follow our senior Talmidei Chachomim of each generation.
    “WE” don’t pasken for ourselves on our own from cliche like Yishuv E. Y., We rely on the guidance the senior chachmei hador of each generation.
    This is how Yiddishkeit always was before modern orthodoxy took off.

    Rav Ahron Leib Shteinmann was a recognized Manhig Yisroel & this was his opinion as you can read here:

    Recently Released Letter By Maran HaRav SHteinman To Hagon HaRav Don Segal Regarding Nachal Charedi

    #1651985

    manitou
    Participant

    Haimy

    Typical, As soon as you have an untenable position you pull out the gedolim joker.
    Please show any gadol that posits in a serious Teshuva that jews are somehow different and never needed and don’t need an army.

    #1651991

    Haimy
    Participant

    I never claimed such a thing!. There is an army. They don’t need us to protect the country. We will be pulled down spiritually if we join them. Therefore, we don’t join.
    It is better for them that we don’t join since thereby Klal Yisroel has more zechusim by us remaining pure.
    Quoting a senior Talmid Chacham & recognized leader is not a “joker card” It’s how orthodox Jews have been making decisions since we stood at Har Sinai. (Excluding Korach & several others)

    #1651996

    Avi K
    Participant

    MRSarah, please remind me. I do not have time to look for needles in haystacks.

    Haimy, it is well known that what Chareidi gedolim say in public and private are often two different things. It is pikuach nefesh for them. Rav Eliashiv was stunned by extremists when he made a deal about relocating graves. Imagine what the Pelegniks would do given that they are already at war with the rest of the Chareidim. The rest of your points are simply erev raviut.

    #1651999

    We don’t make a specific misheberach for Israeli soldiers
    because we need to be clear that it’s existence is a terrible bedieved,
    only for boys that would otherwise go otd.

    The existence of the army is a b’dieved?
    Most soldiers weren’t religious to begin with.
    Would praying for the welfare of Israeli soldiers really convey
    the message that the army is a good place for our bochurim?

    #1652001

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    @manitou Why can no one from the pro army answer my question? We need an army but we also need learners.

    #1652037

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    manitou: The reason it makes sense for haimy to say “we” is that this is a forum for the Yeshiva world (in case you didn’t notice). Meaning, any discussion we have here, whether it be Joseph or Avi K posting, accepts the assumption of respect to the authority of Torah and the rebbeim.

    If you think the gedolei hador are “jokes,” you do not belong here. Even our most left-wing posters don’t go that far. I know you think in your wacko head that you’re making some kind of legitimate points and that people will pass by and think “yeah, he really showed that charedi guy!” But, you aren’t, and nobody sees it that way. Everyone just thinks you’re a jerk and a loser after that last post, which I imagine is why it was let through despite being horribly offensive to the user-base of this site.

    #1652044

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    NCB, you misread Mantou’s post. He referred to the gedoim joker, as in from a deck of cards. 🃏

    #1652046

    manitou
    Participant

    Haimy
    Very good, now you’re connected to reality, you agree that we need an army. Next step show me a posek anywhere that holds not like chazal and the Torah that Frum people don’t need to defend themselves and their fellow Jews.

    Neville Chaim Berlin
    On the contrary I have respect for our Torah and chazal therefore I don’t just go around making up things in their name. Oh and btw joker is not a reference to a joke it’s a reference to the joker card in a card game.

    Shopping 613
    Who says we don’t need people to learn or not learn? It’s two separate things we need an army for defense and we need people to be shomer Torah umitzvohs which by definition means people learning Torah.

    #1652113

    Haimy
    Participant

    The repository of Torah has always been the Chareidim. The modern orthodox yidden were the Zevuluns who went out into the academic/professional world. “We” strive to be shevet Yisochor who are the spiritual backbone of klal Yisroel.
    Look at you seforim shelf, at least 95% was written by a Chareidi yid. Artscroll Shas etc. Written & edited by a Chareidi Jew. Mishna Berura, kitzur Shulchan aruch, Aruch hashulchon, Igros Moshe, all Chareidim.
    The chachmei hador belong to the chareidim because they have invested so much into producing gaonei yisroel.
    They have taken responsibility for the chinuch system in E.Y.
    It is absolutely foolish for unqualified people so voice their opinion about this subject. It’s no different than a layman expressing his opinion about how a brain surgeon should operate. Or a Chareidi Jew telling a MO Jew how to run his hedge fund or law practice, everyone should stick to their area of expertise.

    #1652132

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    @manitou Torah is a type of defense.

    #1652146

    Joseph
    Participant

    So now since everyone agrees there’s a need both for full time Torah learners in Yeshiva as well as full time soldiers in the army, given the fact that less than 1% of the Jewish population in Israel seek to be full time Torah learners in Yeshiva, whereas a large percent of the population is happy to enlist in the Israeli army, we clearly realize there’s actually a shortage of full time Yeshiva men while there’s no shortage of full time soldiers.

    Therefore anyone with any intelligence realizes we need to draft more men into Yeshivas. And that there’s no need for more men in the army, which is already fully staffed by the large majority of the Israeli population who refuses to learn Torah full time thereby leaving that very needed duty of more Torah study to those who volunteer to serve in the Yeshiva as Torah men.

    The obvious conclusion is to not only allow but to encourage more men to go into Yeshiva rather than the army.

    #1652205

    Avi K
    Participant

    Haimy and joseph, you simply do not know what you are writing about. Many guys who are listed as learning are not exactly doing it full-time. There is also a big problem with guys in the Chareidi community getting into trouble. On the other hand, RZ yeshivot and kollelim are expanding rapidly.

    #1652209

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I stand by what I said, and I did not misread the word joker as joke. I know exactly what he said.

    His assertion is that pulling down a proof from a gadol is not a legitimate counter-point and is something we only do when we have nothing to say. This is clearly false to anyone with the most remedial exposure to Orthodox Judaism. He’s now claiming that people are putting words in rebbeim’s mouths, which is not what he originally said at all. I’m fine with him making this claim since it’s not doing him any favors given that Haimy linked to an article with his proof.

    If you want a world in which we don’t have any authoritative voices and every individual gets to just make up his own drashas from his Bible, I recommend you try a Church. If you actually have so little exposure to Orthodoxy that you truly believe it when you say the gadolim don’t actually have a problem with joining the IDF, then I reiterate that you should not be posting here because you have no idea how anything works.

    Avi K: I heard that Moshe Rebbeinu privately said it’s okay to eat pork… Seriously, do you ever listen to yourself? The gedolim are not secret Zionists no matter how much you fantasize about it. Just man up and admit that you live in an alternate, Kahanist sphere that is not sanctioned by the mainstream, Charedi rabbis.

    #1652261

    Haimy
    Participant

    Thank you neville-chaimberlin, I couldn’t have said it better.

    #1652499

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Haimy,
    Where’s his signature ? Is this letter legit,or no one is allowed to ask on this forum?… and why are there conflicting reports over the years about his stance vis-a-vis Nachal Chareidi? . And if he was opposed, then why the demonstrations against him in NY, 12 years ago by the Satmar picketing him & cursing him? . And why after his petirah, the celebrations by extremists with lechaims, posters, etc. villifying him?….And didn’t Rav Ovadia Yosef also once say that bocharim should join the IDF if they’re not learning… Although this bit of info mysteriously disappeared on Inet. And unless I ‘m mistaken, same for Rav Eliyashev..
    Anyway, let’em totalky disband the IDF starting tomorrow, no army at all, and call it a day.. L’chaim.

    #1652487

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    The problem, I believe, is that most frum people are spoiled. We all grew up in luxurious safe environments and do not understand what it takes to protect a country as we have goyim who are more than happy to sign up in our stead.

    My biggest fear is, as most frum shuls, do not even say a tefillah that our brothers in arms (and yes, brothers) to be safe, is that the irreligious leaders will one day decide that the west bank, which includes half of yerushalyim, the old city, neve yaakov, pisgot zeve, etc will all go under the Palestinian rule. It is sad that everyone alive cannot recall all the massacres under the Arabs, but it seems that our yeshiva system prefers Arabs over irreligious Jews. We will then have fast days, yom tefillah and hopefully, hashem will not say why are you davvening now? You never cared for it.

    I do not think anyone says learning is not important, but from all of Tanach, can anyone find ONE source where people who were learning was excused from military service? Where is the betachon that the learning that you do will protect you? It’s great saying it protects the soldiers, but how much more meaningful will the learning be when it is YOUR life a stake?
    And if people refuse to serve, then they should not live there! Move to Gaza where you are not required to serve in the army. What right do you have to live in Yerushalayim? You did not fight for it so you should wait for moshiach to gain the right.

    #1652598

    manitou
    Participant

    Haimy, Neville chaimberlin

    I won’t go down this rabbit hole about if I was making fun of gedolim or not.

    I’m still waiting for a comprehensive Halacha Teshuva staying that Frum people are patur from milchemes chova.

    The fact is that the truth is very uncomfortable to all that have a shred of integrity. I am a chareidi and I learned in kolel for ten years and I loved it and would not have wanted to give it up to be a soldier. BUT how can I say that someone else has to pick up a weapon for me or have to support me since I think that learning is the best thing?? How can I impose my values on someone else??

    #1652688

    Avi K
    Participant

    Neville, it is OK to eat pork for pikuach nefesh. Rav Kanievsky himself wrote that he signs what his rabbanim tell him to sign. Rav Eliashiv was stoned by extremists.As the Peleg is at war with RK he must be saying some things in private that they don’t like.

    #1652699

    Haimy
    Participant

    The Chachmei Yisroel don’t need to provide anyone a written teshuva explaining their decisions. The Yishuv in E.Y. has long fought for it’s independence from the Zionist regime. Nachal Chareidi was a big chidush & never intended for a boy able to sit in yeshiva. There are many reasons why the chachmei yisroel want us out of the army, not only because of bittul torah. If you don’t respect their opinion then no written Teshuva will change your mind, if you respect their opinion then you don’t need a Teshuva.

    #1652714

    manitou
    Participant

    Haimy

    Lol

    #1652713

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    @anon1m0us In the times of tanach, EVERYONE was learning and only the most learned were the ones who went to battle. Thing is now, most Jews are in the army rather than learning. Like I’ve said before, if chilonim went to learn half time I would have no problem sending my child to fight half the time too.

    You have to remember who is RUNNING this world, and although you may disagree, many people like Joseph have said are saying that the army is doing enough hishtadlus. We’ve won countless wars without the chareidim and protected our country very well with the insane odds against us. It’s been working till now, so why complain? Had we been losing wars with thousands of dying I think many of us and the gedolim may feel different on the issue…

    #1652717

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Manitou: It’s common knowledge how every major posek has approached the issue of Zionism. I don’t know how anyone with access to google could be unaware of this, so I have to assume you’re playing ignorant for rhetorical purposes. The most comprehensive teshuvah you’re going to find is probably the Satmar Rov’s. But, that doesn’t actually matter to you, does it? The thing is, when people take the Satmar approach of bringing proofs down from the gemara, their stance gets labelled as religious fanaticism with no logical points against the state. When people take the Litvish, more politically-based approach, you say there’s no halachic reasoning behind the stance. It’s this kind of doublethink thought process that has made me realize how wrong the Zionists must be.

    #1652727

    manitou
    Participant

    Shopping613
    Who said in the times of tanach everyone was learning?

    Neville chaimberlin
    Why are you bringing in Zionism and Satmar? This is a straightforward Halacha that is called a milchemes chova (self defense) and everyone is mechuyav.

    #1652751

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    to manitou at 12 00- how can we be chayiv, according to your understanding, in having an army, if we are dispersed throughout the world? how can one say that the Israeli army is to protect the jewish people, or that it is the army of the Jewish nation, if it simply does not function as a protector of jews outside of israel?

    my point is that I would think it is logical that we would only have this concept of an army, as defined by the Torah, in a situation where klal yisrael is one, together, and not in a galus. That kind of army would include people, ages 20 to 60, protecting the entirety of klal yisrael.
    In this vein, the israeli army would then be a regular army, albeit the best and most important one, as it does protect the land, and all the jews in it, with Hashem’s guidance.
    We would need an army to protect ourselves, because if we didnt have one, the arabs would come in and kill us. Therefore, one would be needed in eretz yisrael and not the rest of the world. Eretz Yisrael is the only place that Jews are under constant threat.
    We would need only enough of an army to be a deterrent to the arabs, to keep them at bay. Any more soldiers wouldn’t even be necessary for this army.
    Therefore, how can you say that all jews are chayiv in this army?

    #1652753

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    manitou- ages 20 to 60. what heter is there to impose this mitzvah on an 18 year old?
    we are not at war. Because of the army. Hence, all we need is enough to prevent war.
    My rebbi’s american cousin came to our yeshiva by a shalosh seudos, and he told us about how he tried to get in the army for a while, and they just refused him, stating, they didn’t have boots in his size.
    After pressing, they finally let him in.
    He has normal sized feet.
    They obviously did not need him, otherwise they would not have made up such a stupid excuse. Let him join, the more the merrier, right? But no, he was rejected over nothing. They made up a reason as to why they could not take him.
    There are plenty of bachurim with that shoe size, yet they are not getting a ptur for having average sized feet.

    #1652779

    Avi K
    Participant

    Avreich,
    1. Horaaat sha’ah. On the other end, would you make your 13 year old son a partner in the business? Would you let him marry the neighbor’s 12 year old daughter?
    2. Are you serious? What do you call the missiles from Gaza, the terrorism in Judea and and Samaria, Hizbollah and the Iranians in Syria?
    3. How old was your rebbe’s American cousin?

    #1652785

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    mantitou: Why do you think there would be any more of a chiyuv to join the IDF than there is to join the American army?

    #1652804

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    1. My rebbes cousin was 19-20.
    2. I dont know what your first question is asking, or having to do with what i said.
    3. What horaas shaa? And even if there was a horaas shaah, wouldnt it have been out of fear of what people would say? Isnt that your stance on the gedolim, that what they say isnt trustworthy because they listen to whatever their company tells them to do?
    4. What is your response to the point about the fact that the idf isnt serving the purpose of protecting klal yisrael, but rather anyone who is in the borders of israel?

    #1652827

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    @shopping613: Actually, since the 6 day war, Israel has not won any real wars. It technically LOST the Yom Kippir war. If it wasn’t for a seize fire with Egypt, Israel would not be able to concentrate it’s forces against Syria in the Golan. Egypt recaptured the Suez which was a big win for them. Almost half of Israel’s air-force was destroyed and approximately 2,700 Jewish soldiers were killed. I don’t know how you can consider that a win! Eben in Lebanon, Israel paid too high of a price against Hezbollah. I’m sorry, but since the 6 day war, Israel did not win any wars. There were always seize fires to save face.

    In the time of the Tanach, learning had NOTHING to do with who goes to war. That was never the question that was asked by the Cohen. Those questions were also only asked for a milhemet reshut. A milhemet mitzvah everyone needed to fight. I would think Pikuach nefesh is a mitzvah.

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