The Shabbos App Controversy

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  • #1061239

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    which speaker?

    #1061240

    sm29
    Participant

    Rabbi Eisenstein

    #1061241

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ????? ??? ??? ?”? ???? ?”?

    (He is discussing a cell phone with an alarm clock function)

    ??? ?? ????? ???? ????, ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ????, ????”? ???”? ???????? ????”? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????, ????? ?? ????? ??”? ??? ??? ????? ?????, ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?????”? ?”? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??.

    #1061242

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    ????? ??? ??? ?”? ???? ?”?

    (He is discussing a cell phone with an alarm clock function)

    ??? ?? ????? ???? ????, ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ????, ????”? ???”? ???????? ????”? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????, ????? ?? ????? ??”? ??? ??? ????? ?????, ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?????”? ?”? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??.

    BS”D

    If I didn’t know any better, I would read this as having no good reason to say it is Assur, and making up a “Geder” that didn’t exist and that he doesn’t have the right to create. He isn’t even willing to put it under U’vada D’Chol!!

    A cell phone can (and should, L’Cheorah) be no different than a portable clock (or a watch), which can also have possible issurim (like changing the time, turning off the alarm, or turning on the backlight). Would it make a difference if the phone had no service (or no SIM card)?

    I see this teshuva as not dealing with the real issue (voice activation on shabbos), and failing from a side point (Muktza).

    #1061243

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Voice activation ??? ??? ?????

    Sure it’s ???? ?????? ????, as the two cases he compares it to are.

    #1061244

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Voice activation ??? ??? ?????

    I thought your were refering back to my proposal, not to the actual proposed Shabbos App. My apologies.

    Sure it’s ???? ?????? ????, as the two cases he compares it to are.

    Since when is a bicycle & an umbrella (which I thought was due to Ohel?) part of Uvda Dchol? Even he is just saying there is a geder, not that it is Uvda Dchol as defined by the poskim.

    #1061245

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1061246

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Bicycle: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14506&st=&pgnum=154

    And it would indeed apply to use of a cell phone to text through voice activation, but I’m not addressing that specifically.

    #1061247

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    BS”D

    DY: Thanks for the Maare Mekomos. I could not find the Chazon Ish inside, could you please give more detail. As for the Tzitz Eliezer, he seems to be saying (his second reason which we are dealing with) that the “Uvda D’chol” is that his body isn’t resting. Obviously that is not a Klal (or running L’dvar mitzva or using a wheelchair would also be Uvda D’chol), so that itself needs to be analyzed. Furthermore, he seems to settle on a general idea of “Zilzul Shabbos” (last paragraph), which I agree would apply to cellphones (“Libi Nirah Li”), but that would be no different than those who already play basketball on shabbos inside an eruv.

    Additionally, if you look in Chelek Alef where he first brings the Chasam Sofer & Ramban, it is specifically because one can not do “Shabbosdik” things on a train (which is the chiddush of the CS).

    In short, if you do go with this Tzitz Eliezer, he equates Shevisah with Uvda D’chol (questionable), of which the reasons (of Na V’Nad) would not apply to cellphones. If your argument is that it isn’t “Shabbosdik” and therefore Uvda D’chol, that horse has left the barn quite a while back.

    #1061248

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, the Chazon Ish (top of the page) is hard to read on hebrewbooks, so I’ll quote (I have the sefer in front of me) – he refuted the tayna of an umbrella being ohel, says it might be tikun mana, then says:

    ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????, ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????, ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?????, ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????, ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???????

    I think we can agree that R’ Shmuel Auerbach shlit”a is correct that he would say the same about use of cell phones (transporting it for the alarm clock function) and that kol shekein v’kol shekein for texting, even if there were a way to get around koseiv and tikun mana.

    that horse has left the barn quite a while back

    Should that change my approach or yours?

    #1061249

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DaasYochid: Thanks for the quote. As I said, I can agree that it would not be “Shabbosdik”, as long as you don’t try to pigeonhole the issur into a specific melacha or Ta’am of Chazal.

    The problem is that even though that would work for Yeraim, there are many Orthodox Jews (of all sects) who, while willing to follow the letter of the law, do not feel that a Geder created out of thin air due to issues of Zilzul Shabbos (especially one created by those “Crazy Mea Shearim & Beni Brak Rabbis who are against the state of Israel”) should or will apply to them. Halachicly they may even have a point, as what makes “Shabbosdik” to some is not true for others (Settlers of Catan, anyone? How about scientific study?). Once it it is subjective, they have reason to say it doesn’t apply. I’m looking for an objective reason (in this case, Kesav created on the other phone) that would objectively be an issur shabbos. On the other hand, I do note that is seems at first glance that there are ways around these issues via voice commands, and challenge smart learned people such as yourself to give a halachic reason why it should be assur, or say the only issue is Zilzul.

    Soon (and probably sooner than you think), voice commands (maybe even robots) will be available commercially for the sick and elderly, and using it will be a Kiyum of Shabbos. At some point the Shailah is going to have to be answered, may as well do it now.

    So to answer your question, it SHOULD change your approach, even if it doesn’t change your personal outcome.

    #1061250

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Actually a more interesting question would be e-books

    Books are slowly becoming obsotete and while I dont think Siddurs, Gemorahs , Tanachs and a few other popular and common will stop being printing. Smaller run books very well might be and be only be able to be released on an e-book

    #1061251

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    zahavasdad – Is there any reason to think that E-Books wouldn’t be at a minimum Kesivas Arayi?

    #1061252

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, no thanks, I’ll stick to the yeraim. There are also those who aren’t nispoel from the issur k’siva (such as the developer of the app, if this is for real), but zilzul Shabbos is very real.

    If it were only zilzul, I would say so (and insist that it’s still very much assur), but it happens to not be.

    Re: Tzitz Eliezer, see the part where he quotes the Sh’eilas Yaakov, especially the end of the S”Y’s teshuvah.

    #1061253

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    zahavasdad – Is there any reason to think that E-Books wouldn’t be at a minimum Kesivas Arayi?

    Well, couldn’t one respond, “The problem is that even though that would work for Yeraim, there are many Orthodox Jews (of all sects) who, while willing to follow the letter of the law, do not feel that a Geder created out of thin air due to issues of Ksav She’eino Miskayem should or will apply to them.”?

    #1061254

    apushatayid
    Participant

    If one views shabbos as a day to survive and get through because of all its restrictions, I can see why one would welcome this app and try to make it work halachicly.

    #1061255

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Well, couldn’t one respond, “The problem is that even though that would work for Yeraim, there are many Orthodox Jews (of all sects) who, while willing to follow the letter of the law, do not feel that a Geder created out of thin air due to issues of Ksav She’eino Miskayem should or will apply to them.”?

    DY – I believe the appropriate term would be :-p

    I’d also give it a “like” if there was a “like” button. Good job, and very possibly there were people at the time of Chazal who said exactly that.

    If it were only zilzul, I would say so (and insist that it’s still very much assur), but it happens to not be.

    Agreed, but I’m not here to preach to the Chazzan. The idea would be L’shitasam (for those who are not Choshesh for Zilzul, unfortunately), how can we convince them that this is Assur for other reasons so that they won’t use the app? I believe we have accomplished that much.

    #1061256

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    and very possibly there were people at the time of Chazal who said exactly that.

    How did Chaza”l deal with them, by pandering to them?

    If you noticed, I have argued against this in on a technical basis as well, but I almost see the bigger issue as fighting the errant and dangerous notion that Yiddishkeit and halachah is all about the technical. It is not.

    So while you read my post and saw the humor in it (which I appreciate), on some level, I was being serious as well.

    #1061257

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    but I almost see the bigger issue as fighting the errant and dangerous notion that Yiddishkeit and halachah is all about the technical. It is not.

    It is very interesting that Rav Hershel Shachter said basically the same thing in regards to “partnership minyanim”.

    ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?????, ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???” ?????, ???? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ? ??? ??? ?????

    That being said, I don’t believe that trying to move an action from being against the spirit of shabbos to actually being under a geder of Chazal (or an actual Melacha) is “pandering”. If we can explain the Emes so that more Yidden keep Shabbos, instead of throwing it under an umbrella (pun intended) that can be abused (similar to how the umbrella of Tznius has been abused), we are all much better off.

    So while you read my post and saw the humor in it (which I appreciate), on some level, I was being serious as well.

    Which is the best sort of humor.

    #1061258

    ivory
    Member

    You can’t assur something just because its not “in the spirit” of shabbos. You have to clarify whether it is permitted halachically or not

    #1061259

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You can’t assur something just because its not “in the spirit” of shabbos. You have to clarify whether it is permitted halachically or not

    By that statement one could use a Shabbos clock to turn on the TV to watch a Football game and then use the Shabbos clock to turn it off

    #1061260

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    You can’t assur something just because its not “in the spirit” of shabbos. You have to clarify whether it is permitted halachically or not.

    First, this is exactly the attitude that DY was harping against.

    Second, it seems clear that there is a Din D’oraysah (or “Halachically a Chiyuv”) of L’Maan Yanuach and Shabbason (according to the Ramban & Ritva, others would say it is M’dirabbanon?), that one must relax AKA “act Shabbosdik” on Shabbos. If you want to know how that is done, you can AYLOR.

    Furthermore, the Rambam would define the shabbos app, even if not a “Melacha” per say, as assur M’dirabbanan, since it mimics a Melacha.

    ???? ????? “?????” (???? ??,??; ???? ??,??)–????? ?????? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ???. ?????? ???? ??, ????? ????? ???? ????–??? ?????, ????? ???? ??? ????? ???????

    See Rambam Shabbos 21

    #1061261

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “You can’t assur something just because its not “in the spirit” of shabbos. You have to clarify whether it is permitted halachically or not”

    The Ramban at the beginning of parshas kedoshim disagrees with you.

    #1061262

    Curiosity
    Participant

    zahavasdad, the people who made the app actually claim that you should be permitted to watch TV on Shabbat on their website. I quote their spokesperson/web moderator Yossi Goldstein in a comment section response to someone using your very argument:

    “Why is your kids watching Curious George on TV on Shabbos any different than you reading them Curious George from a book? The only difference is who is providing the voice and turning the pages, Logically if you think about it, there is absolutely nothing wrong with watching TV on Shabbos, as long as what you are watching you would anyhow see on Shabbos.”

    This whole thing is just another sad example of how far off people have gone without a Mesorah and without a Rov.

    #1061263

    ivory
    Member

    Sorry! I stand corrected! I’d still like to know if its actually assur or patur aval assur

    #1061264

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What does he have to do with this?

    #1061265

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, thanks and thanks. I think my remaining point to you would be that if we overemphasize the technical issurim here, we risk having the ability to decry something which has no technical issur.

    So, we do as The Chazon Ish and Rav Schechter say; we leave it to the gedolei haposkim of our dor. Only in this case, even before having seen the opinion of any poskim, it was blatantly obvious, at least to me, that this is a case of zilzul Shabbos.

    #1061266

    apushatayid
    Participant

    It MIGHT (I am no expert in hilchos shabbos) not be in conflict with the shamor aspect of shabbos, but it sure flies in the face of the zachor aspect of shabbos.

    #1061268

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It MIGHT (I am no expert in hilchos shabbos) not be in conflict with the shamor aspect of shabbos

    It is. The halachic “reasoning” behind it would make for nice Purim Torah.

    That having been said (and this might be what ivory meant to ask), the melachos involved are probably considered d’rabanan according to most poskim.

    #1061269

    ivory
    Member

    No I meant is it actual chillul shabbos? Or does it not “look shabbosdig”

    #1061270

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is chillul Shabbos because it violates at least two melachos (probably d’rabanan) AND because it is zilzul Shabbos.

    I actually have a hard time believing that they are serious about it (or at least that they had any semi competent halachic expert look at it) because the reasoning is so backwards.

    There’s a theory which says that this is an effort to poke fun at left wing “orthodox” reformers, and although I doubt it, I can’t dismiss it entirely.

    #1061272

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “It is.”

    I guess you are an expert in hilchos shabbos.

    #1061273

    apushatayid
    Participant

    we are too far removed from adar or april 1st for it to be a joke.

    #1061274

    Chochom-ibber
    Participant

    Oy Shabbbos, Shabbos.

    So many holy Jews have been lost to you. Their fathers had only taken the train to work after Shachris. They had a goishe co-worker punch them in. They weren’t oiver dioraisos rather tircha etc etc etc. Yet their generations are (dis)integrating.

    When will we realise how precious and defining you are to us?

    #1061275

    ivory
    Member

    There are people who think life is a joke and don’t wait for adar or april

    #1061276

    FriendInFlatbush
    Participant

    Has anything happened with the Shabbos App in the last 3 months?

    #1061277

    FFBBT613
    Member

    The Yetzer Hara is soooo good at tricking us. Haha, this app is such a joke… would you go swimming on Shabbos? No. Would you play basketball on Shabbos? No. What about riding a bike? No. Would you watch TV if you left it on from before Shabbos and you wouldn’t change the channel? No. So why would you use a cellphone…

    #1061278

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Regarding bicycles, see Shu”t Eimek Halacha 1:26

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