The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Controversial Topics The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

Viewing 50 posts - 801 through 850 (of 2,053 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1630794

    samthenylic
    Participant

    Would the Besh”t’s sfarim, or those of the Mezhricher Magid go on top of the Tanya, since they were the teachers/Rabbeim of the Baal Hatanya? & if so, why not a Mishnayos & Gemarah?
    How could an Achron be chashuver than the Gemarah?????

    #1630839

    laskern
    Participant

    For your information, the Torah Temima argues on the whoke thing and says that the order of kadusha only applies of seforim in parchment otherwise there is no difference

    #1630855

    midwesterner
    Participant

    laskern: That is irrelevant. They are not saying sequence doesn’t matter. They acknowledge that it does. But if you’d really know what’s going on in the Tanya, your heart would tell you that it is equal to a chumash.

    #1630858

    samthenylic
    Participant

    Good! tell THAT to a Lubavitcher, and he will show you his true colors…..

    #1630889

    Toi
    Participant

    @cs said”Gut Yom Tov!! I think if you understand more about what the Sefer Tanya Kadisha is, it will definitely help. To do that, I’ll write up a moiradike story a heard from a shiur in preparation for yud tes Kislev, maybe later tonight after I write to the Rebbe. Lshana toiva belimud Hachassidus uvdarchei Hachassidus to all 🙂”

    And i laughed out loud. You go write to the Rebbe. Did you know he is dead? Are you aware that attempting to communicate with dead people is assur? Do you care? Is he not dead? Have you decided to show your true colors now that all bets are off and you’ve dug yourself in deep enough that anyone who reads this thread can quickly discern that your hashkafos (and that’s being generous) are utterly insane? Holy moley.

    #1630891

    And i assume midwesterner is clarifying *their* message, not stating his own.

    #1630897

    I’m going to invite you to read his words one more time, before I explain the simple English like a pre school teacher.

    Please do, because I still don’t see any defensible interpretation.

    #1630931

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    A happy sweet new year to all of you! You should be zocheh to the Light of Chassidus this year!

    #1630943

    laskern
    Participant

    The Teshuva Meahava 26 was upset when they compared the Zohar to the Torah.

    #1630956

    Toi
    Participant

    @TT- Oh, yes, b’ezras Hashem, so should you, instead of your AZ religion.

    #1630964

    samthenylic
    Participant

    THIS Chasidus is “Finster wie die Nacht”!

    #1631003

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    The moderation must be very backlogged tonight. I submitted my story posts hours ago. Are all the mods at farbrengen 😜

    #1631019

    laskern
    Participant

    samthenylic, the problem is that the Rebbe did not chose a successor so the chasidim end up practically worshipping someone who is not around anymore.

    #1631025

    tfaceBURN
    Participant

    Seeing how CS says gut yom tov today it might be worth posters knowing why Lubavitch celebrates not only Kiselv 19, which is the day the Baal haTanya got out of prison.
    The story goes that after being released he was taken to the wrong apartment and instead of being in the house of a chosid he was in the house of a misnged where he was forced to debate his host for three hours and defend chasidus. He later famously said that those three hours were worse than the entire time he spent in prison. This happened on Kislev 20.
    Now the fact is that there is no source for this story other than the writings of the Frierdicke Rebbe Rav Yoseph Yitzchok and no one had heaerd of it for more than 100 years until he came around.
    When I was in Lubavitch I used to believe it just as I believed all the other fantasies I was told. Now not only don’t I believ it but I think it’s disgusting to put those words in the Baal haTanya’s mouth just so that the gullible chasidim can get drunk an extra day and hate misnagdim even more than they had.

    #1631880

    just so that the gullible chasidim can get drunk an extra day

    They need an excuse?

    #1631888

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    I never said that Tanya has more Kedusha than a Chumash, nor a Gemara, all I said is that some Chassidim won’t place any other Sefer on top of a Tanya, that includes even the Rebbes own Seforim, such as Likkutei Sichos or Maamarim. There is no Halacha that says that one MUST place certain Seforim on top of others.

    Seriously, there might be some actual issues in Lubavitch, but this isn’t one of them. It doesn’t contradict any Halacha not to place a Chidushei HaRashba (for example) on top of a Tanya. Tanya was and is revered by almost all Chassidim, not just Chabad as an extremely Heilige Sefer. It’s not about generations and Achronim and Rishonim, it’s about the Sefer itself. No one has a problem placing a Ketzos on top of a Shulchan Aruch HaRav for example. Or a Likkutei Torah (another one of the Alter Rebbes Seforim).

    #1631965

    samthenylic
    Participant

    Oh boy! Like the Rebbe always said “Torah chadasha” will emerge upon Moshiach’s arrival. He has arrived, so there is a “new” Torah …

    #1631980

    RSo
    Participant

    SHY: “all I said is that some Chassidim won’t place any other Sefer on top of a Tanya… There is no Halacha that says that one MUST place certain Seforim on top of others.”

    You’re right that there is no halacha that one MUST place certain sefarim on top of others, but it is still improper if someone doesn’t do so because he “feels” that it is more respectful this way even though halachically there is nothing wrong with it.

    “Feeling” this way is tantamount to saying, if I had written the halacha I would have done so differently.

    Or perhaps I’m dealing with a Chagas chassid here…

    #1631988

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ TT

    You should be zocheh to the Light of Chassidus

    שמים חושך לאור ואור לחושך…

    Re: the whole Tanya on top of other seforim thing

    SH called it a Hergesh. From a point of view of hergish it makes sense to me. But then he wrote in a subsequent post that it has to do with the heligness of the sefer which seems to be m’gala milta lmafreah that hergish doesn’t really mean hergish. But this is ok too. You guys who don’t get it just haven’t mastered doublethink.

    #1632172

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Sechel:

    It’s not the action, it’s the principle. Saying stuff like “Torah shb’chsav of Chassidus” will already make people a little uneasy. Actually having hanhagas based around it goes a step over the line.

    As for the fact that you never said it has more kedushah than a Gemara, you didn’t need to. All you had to say is that it’s OK to put a Chumash on top of a Gemara, but not on top of a Tanya.

    #1632230

    samthenylic
    Participant

    OK, kinderlach! It is a “New Year” let bygones be bygones, and let us concentrate on Sholom V’shalva, Achdus V’reus. That is the ONLY WAY that we will be zocheh to the Geulah.

    #1632243

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Wow! The Tanya must really be heilig!! Not only a chumash, but they won’t even put Likutei Sichos or maamarim on top of it!

    #1632348

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Not only a chumash, but they won’t even put Likutei Sichos or maamarim on top of it!”

    Lol. I noticed that too.

    #1632361

    Wow! The Tanya must really be heilig!! Not only a chumash

    Isn’t a חת״ת something where a חומש is on top of a תניא?

    #1632381

    midwesterner
    Participant

    B’crach echad is not a raya to anything. If so, you wouldn’t be allowed to but BIrkas Hatorah or anything like that before Beraishis.

    #1632511

    RSo
    Participant

    A friend pointed out to me that none of the lubavichers in the forum have objected or even commented to my mentioning twice that the Rayatz’s writings were works of creative fiction. He wanted to know whether that means that even in lubavich it is accepted as such. I told him I don’t think so but that I would ask.

    So what do CS et al say?

    #1632548

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Hi rso been so busy with YTK that haven’t had much time for anything else. My husband is now at his third farbrengen and I have a few minutes, so I’ll just write a few things I’ve wanted to say. A) I do feel my story posts would have helped with the Tanya question. Looks like the mods didn’t allow them though so I’ll leave that one. B) tburnface im surprised you felt you had to resort to slander and fake news. I mean there are plenty of “secrets” you can tell about lubavitch without creating silly lies. All Farbrengens I and my husband attended emphasised achdus between all yidden (including the farbrengen of the Rebbe we watched) my husband didn’t drink at all (if he does tonight it would be under 4 kelishkes as per the Rebbe’s directive to those under 40)
    C) rso I definitely wouldn’t say its creative fiction. A Rebbe doesn’t make stuff up. Also in lubavitch particularly, chassidim and Rebbeim alike have been very careful with every detail of a story transmitted, so it’s not the culture to add in stuff that sound good but aren’t true.

    The memoirs I would assume are based on what the Rebbetzin Rivkah, the Rebbe Maharashs wife, told the Frierdiker Rebbe – as he heard much of lubavitch history and stories from her. Curiously though, I will tell you I think I may have personally noticed one tiny contradiction in the memoirs themselves, and I have wondered about that. I would need to double check but if my memory doesn’t fail me, in one place it says that baruchs mother passed away before his father, and in another it says that his father passed away first… Maybe some lubavitchers here would know whats up with that. Anyhow as I haven’t looked into it I didn’t comment before.

    Anyone else (lubavitchers) seen that?

    #1632564

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    I tried to respond but my posts won’t go through. I guess that’s this site’s version of a balanced discussion – letting you malign the kedoshei elyon and making it look as if we agree by blocking our responses.

    #1632581

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Never mind. I looked it up (thanks rso for the impetus) and I was wrong. It does mention their passing twice, once in greater detail than the other, but the sequence is correct (The former in vol 1 p 48, the latter in vol 2 p 256). So I guess the only claim to “creative fiction” is the fact that it states what people are thinking. However, this isn’t surprising to me. Also, the books are chock full of historical references to various well known historical figures and the chronological events of their lives. It doesn’t read like a fairy tale with Berel Shmerel and Perel.

    #1632668

    Chossid
    Participant

    After holding my self back many days of not posting, I finally couldn’t hold my self back. Especially on this recent comment

    Toi “And i laughed out loud. You go write to the Rebbe. Did you know he is dead? Are you aware that attempting to communicate with dead people is assur? Do you care? Is he not dead? Have you decided to show your true colors now that all bets are off and you’ve dug yourself in deep enough that anyone who reads this thread can quickly discern that your hashkafos (and that’s being generous) are utterly insane? Holy moley.”

    And I almost started crying. Have you ever heard of writing a letter or davening to a tzadik (like for example the rashbi or like by kaver rochul) for a brocha, that they should be a mielitz yoisher for us? Like kolev been yefuneh davened by the kivrei Avois that he should be saved from the meraglim. We are not davaning to them cas vesholom, we are asking them that they should ask Hashem to give us brochos.
    Really surprised
    And besides the point you don’t write on a tzadik the word dead we write he passed away.

    #1632673

    username123321
    Participant

    Oh No. Someone’s writing to a Tzaddik after he passed away!! It’s terrible!!

    Quick. We should invent a time machine so you all would be able to go back in time to the Minchas Yitzchak. You’d definitely teach him a thing or two about Kefira and Doresh El HaMeisim.

    #1632674

    username123321
    Participant

    Wow! The Tanya must really be heilig!! Not only a chumash, but they won’t even put Likutei Sichos or maamarim on top of it!

    Ever heard of such a thing as a Leshitascha?

    Even Leshitascha, that we respect the Rebbe too much, we wouldn’t have a problem with a Gemara or a Mishna, or a Ketzos, Nesivos, or Igros Moshe for that matter on top of a Likkutei Sichos.[1]

    [1]. Do I get put in Cheirem for comparing a Mishna to an Igros Moshe? Or for saying that I’d put an Igros Moshe on top of a Gemara?

    #1632683

    username123321
    Participant

    The Teshuva Meahava 26 was upset when they compared the Zohar to the Torah.

    Did you read the rest of the Teshuva?! I hope you don’t hold like that. At least I was under the impression that the modern Frum velt holds that the Zohar was written by the Rashbi.

    #1632693

    Chossid
    Participant

    tfaceBURN
    “The story goes that after being released he was taken to the wrong apartment and instead of being in the house of a chosid he was in the house of a misnged where he was forced to debate his host for three hours and defend chasidus. He later famously said that those three hours were worse than the entire time he spent in prison. This happened on Kislev 20.
    Now the fact is that there is no source for this story other than the writings of the Frierdicke Rebbe Rav Yoseph Yitzchok and no one had heaerd of it for more than 100 years until he came around.
    When I was in Lubavitch I used to believe it just as I believed all the other fantasies I was told. Now not only don’t I believ it but I think it’s disgusting to put those words in the Baal haTanya’s mouth just so that the gullible chasidim can get drunk an extra day and hate misnagdim even more than they had.”

    Just a small questiont faceBURN yes or no, are you arguing with the friediker Rebbe and saying that this story is false? And if yeah (which I hope not, just I don’t see that in your words) who are you to say such a thing?. Not only that, you say that “it’s disgusting” for the friediker Rebbe to put words in the Bal hatanyas mouth.

    Btw I have been to around five chabad Farbrengens in this past two days and I haven’t seen any bochur drunk ( the Rebbe made a gizerah that the people under 40 can’t drink more than 4 kelishklach). And at least when they do drink it’s at and only by a frum and chassidiche atmosphere (not like when the litvaks drink, like you see especially in Israel).

    I’m really sorry to see your comment is just out of hate. I really don’t think it’s your fault at all just might be the atmosphere you were brought up.

    #1632705

    RSo
    Participant

    CS (welcome back!): “rso I definitely wouldn’t say its creative fiction. A Rebbe doesn’t make stuff up. Also in lubavitch particularly, chassidim and Rebbeim alike have been very careful with every detail of a story transmitted, so it’s not the culture to add in stuff that sound good but aren’t true.”

    There are a number of examples I can give you, but here is one of the most obvious (I have edited the quote only by deleting parts that are not relevant to my point. I have not added or changed any of the words):

    “On the estate of the Governor of Vitebsk stood a palace, and in the courtyard of this palace stood a sundial. For the past two years, however, this sundial had failed to show the correct time between two and five in the afternoon….
    The Alter Rebbe inspected the sundial three or four times, during the hours when it was working, and also when it was not working. After completing his investigation, he said:
    “The Talmud states that at midday the sun is directly overhead; thus, nothing except the clouds can obscure it. But in the afternoon, when the sun begins to move westward, it is possible for certain objects to block the sun’s rays.”
    He estimated that there had to be a tall hill about twelve to fifteen miles to the south, with tall trees growing on the hilltop. During the three hours from two to five in the afternoon, the trees were blocking the sun’s rays from reaching the sundial. Later, as the sun’s angle changed, its rays could reach the sundial once more…
    After that, the Alter Rebbe’s name became well known among the great scientists.”

    This is clearly fiction, and not only fiction but science fiction written by someone who did not understand how sundials work!

    If the trees were too far away to be seen, they would not be able to affect the sun’s rays reaching the sundial. And if they could be seen, then they would be seen blocking the sun’s rays. The explanation allegedly given by the Baal Hatanya does not make any sense. (Just to keep things in greater perspective the average horizon is just over 12 miles away. Had the trees been visible on the horizon they would not have been able to block the sun’s rays for more than about 15 minutes. Not the three hours from 2 to 5 pm.)

    For those who don’t realize, the story was written by the Rayatz and you can find it the same way I found it online, by googling sundial alter rebbe.

    One important point I would like to make. I am not saying that the Rayatz was wrong in writing fiction. Both R Meir (Marcus) Lehmann and R Yudel Rosenberg wrote fictionalized history in order to attract the Jewish youth of their times and to hopefully keep them away from non-Jewish fiction. But there is a big difference between saying that someone wrote fiction for a reason and saying that he wrote only the truth.

    #1632712

    username123321
    Participant

    Just a small questiont faceBURN yes or no, are you arguing with the friediker Rebbe and saying that this story is false? And if yeah (which I hope not, just I don’t see that in your words) who are you to say such a thing?. Not only that, you say that “it’s disgusting” for the friediker Rebbe to put words in the Bal hatanyas mouth.

    Not only is he saying that the story is false (with practically no source), but that

    1. The Frierdicker Rebbe invented it. Not that he had a tradition about it, not that there was a tradition that burtface didn’t have (which would be quite expected. The Frierdiker Rebbe was born in 5640. The Alter Rebbe was arrested in 5558 or so. He was born within a generation of the event. And considering that he was a son of the Rebbe Rashab, he had access to many Chassidim, including a few of the Alter Rebbe, that others didn’t. And considering that anyone burntface saw in Lubavitch was, at most, a bochur in the Rebbe Rashab’s times, there’s no way for him to be able to say “I was around the same time and no one heard the story”). Not even that there was a broken telephone, or that the person he heard it from made a mistake. Not even that the person he heard it from invented it. No. He invented it, all on his own.

    2. He said this so we’d “get drunk an extra day”. That’s what the Rebbe and Frierdicker wanted. For us to be drunk. You know, they made a Takanah for us to drink at least 770 ounces a day of 77.0% alcohol /s.

    For all those who don’t get the reference. The Rebbe said, time and time again, and the Frierdicker Rebbe said, that Mashke is a disgusting drink, and the Rebbe said, many times, that anyone who calls himself a Lubavitcher may not drink more than a Revy’is (Following Reb Avrohom Chaim No’eh’s shiur 🙂 ) of Mashke a farbrengen (the famous “no more than 4 rule”).

    And that’s an absolute maximum. If you’ll get Shikkur on less than that, you can’t have that either. And there are no exceptions. Not Yud Shevat, not Purim, not even Simchas Torah, Nada.

    #1632722

    “I’m really sorry to see your comment is just out of hate. I really don’t think it’s your fault at all just might be the atmosphere you were brought up.”

    😆 you must have missed the part where he says he was brought up Lubavitch!

    #1632719

    username123321
    Participant

    Sorry. That was a type.

    It should have said “not Simchas Torah, and not even Purim”.

    There’s no requirement to drink on Simchas Torah. There is one on Purim. And although we traditionally didn’t rely on the Rama’s hetter, due to Yeridas Hadoros we can’t drink the right way anymore.

    #1632739

    I have never heard of someone writing a letter to רחל אמינו, and if it’s done that doesn’t mean they’re not crazy too

    What I do hear (and this differentiates between the normal people and those that aren’t) is davening to HASHEM in the זכות of רחל or רשב״י

    #1632740

    tfaceBURN
    Participant

    ” you must have missed the part where he says he was brought up Lubavitch!”
    Thnks Syag. Believe it or not I too “ate he kasha of Tmchei Tmimim”!
    Regarding whether I believe the Friedicke Rebbe made up the story. I do. Totally. Chof Kislev was never mentioned as a day of celeberation in Lubavitch before the FR decided to tell us the story about the lowlife misnaged. Of course this isn’t the only time he denigrates misnagdim in his memoirs. IT’s part of his purpose in writing the book!
    Someone also argued with my snipe alluding to Lubavitchers getting drunk all the time by saying that they drink in a much less digusting way than Litvak bochrim. Who mentioned Litvaks? I am not a Litvak, as you would know if you paid attention, and I don’t really care for their lifestyle and hashkofos (not that I have witnessed them getting drunk in Israel, although perhaps you are referring to Americn bochrim learning in Israeli Litvish yeshivahs, and in which case you may have a valid point.)I am talking about chassidim of all other types. Since I joined another well-known but much smaller chassidus about a year after Gimel Tamuz I have witnessed less than twenty cases of drunkenness. But when I go to a Lubavitch wedding of one of my relatives there are always at least two drunks. And they are not the town drunks as they seem to rotate the honor.
    I’d now like to comment on what you non-Lubavitch-born people don’t seem to realize. There is a very simple systm in Lubavitch and you are all falling prey to it. Two rules.
    1. What we want to be true is true.
    2. What we don’t want doesnt exist.
    In categoary 1 we have “the Rebbe is alive” “the Rebbe is Moshiach” “the Rebbe is clearly the biggest talmid chochom of our times” “the Rebbe loved every Jew” “shluchim act out of commitment to the Rebbe and bringing Moshiach” and many more.
    In category 2 we have “drinking is not a problem in Lubavitch” “proper tznius is not lacking in Luvabitch” “there are no real major fights between Lubavitchers” “shluchim don’t act in a selfish manner” and others.
    So there is no wa that you can ever get them to admit they were wrong. Not because they are all just plain liars but because they have been taught (and I was too – Boruch Hashem I managed to rid myself of it) the weird skill of believing what they want to believe.
    In their minds they will always have won the argument and they will be amazed why you aren’t admitting it.

    #1632756

    laskern
    Participant

    The Chidushei Harim gives a parable for drinking on Purim. Someone collected much money to do an aveira. When he saw a poor family, he forgot why he collected the money and gave it to them. When they saw this above in the heavens, they were so impressed that they said that any wish he has will be granted. At the same time, they were afraid that he might ask something they did not want to grant so they also decreed on him to be drunk his whole life. Purim, when people are listened to כל הפושט יד נותנים לו , they are afraid that he will ask for the redenption, so chazal decreed to be drunk that day.

    #1632762

    Chossid
    Participant

    Rso I hear your question.
    But how would you explain the Gemorah?
    And do you know how a sundail works? I definitely don’t.
    And really doesn’t make to me that he would write a fiction with so many names

    #1632761

    Chossid
    Participant

    Rso
    I hear your question.
    But do you know how a sundail works? I definitely don’t.
    And how would you explain the Gemorah (which doesn’t say how far the object has to be, it just says onc it begins to move something can block it.

    #1632809

    Chossid
    Participant

    tfaceBURN
    First of all nobody thinks that lubavitch doesn’t have problems, lubavitch has meny problems (and tznius is one of them).
    Second why do you think your more right then the friediker Rebbe? What holds you back from saying that the Bal Shem tovs chassidus is all made up, rashbi – Zoar is made up, and it’s all not true? CV”S. Obviously they were holy people (all according to their level). Where does your opinion come into the picture? Bemeileh your a godol or a Rebbe or you were there at the time of yud tes kislav, you can have an opinion and say it’s not true. Really surprised.

    #1632813

    username123321
    Participant

    Also, just remembered a point.

    Tell me, is it forbidden to learn Chumash while traveling on a donkey?

    Yet, the Gemara says (Chagigah 14b)

    >מעשה ברבן יוחנן בן זכאי שהיה רוכב על החמור והיה מהלך בדרך ור’ אלעזר בן ערך מחמר אחריו אמר לו רבי שנה לי פרק אחד במעשה מרכבה אמר לו לא כך שניתי לכם ולא במרכבה ביחיד אלא א”כ היה חכם מבין מדעתו אמר לו רבי תרשיני לומר לפניך דבר אחד שלמדתני אמר לו אמור
    מיד ירד רבן יוחנן בן זכאי מעל החמור ונתעטף וישב על האבן תחת הזית אמר לו רבי מפני מה ירדת מעל החמור אמר אפשר אתה דורש במעשה מרכבה ושכינה עמנו ומלאכי השרת מלוין אותנו ואני ארכב על החמור

    When when Rabbi Elazar ben Arach was traveling with Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai and wanted to Darshen in Maaseh Merkava, Yabbi Yochanan stopped his donkey, wrapped himself in a Tallis and sat on a stone. When Rabbi Elazar Ben Arach asked for an explanation, Rabbi Yochanan said “Can you Darshen in Maaseh Merkava, the Chechina will be among us and the Malachim will escort us while we’re sitting on a donkey?”

    Tell me, is Maaseh Merkava holier than Chumash?

    #1632814

    RSo
    Participant

    In answer to whether I know how a sundial works, we made one in third grade as a science project.

    Do I know how to make one that is accurate for a particular location for the entire year? No, but you can look that up in wikipedia. Do I know WHY a sundial shows the time and that it CANNOT BE AFFECTED BY TREES ON A MOUNTAIN somewhere beyond the horizon or even close to it? Most definitely yes.

    The story says that the sundial had only stopped working for the preceding two years, so it must have been built correctly. Even according to the story the Baal Hatanya did not say there was anything wrong with the sundial. He said it was trees that could not be seen (if they could be seen they wouldn’t have needed the Baal Hatanya to tell them that the trees were blocking the sun!) that were affecting it. I have known since that science project in third grade that only if something blocks the sun the sundial won’t work.

    As to your question: “And how would you explain the Gemorah (which doesn’t say how far the object has to be, it just says onc it begins to move something can block it.” You have not only shown that you don’t know how a sundial works, you have also known that you don’t know which Gemoro the story is referring to.

    The only quote from the Gemoro in the story is “The Talmud states that at midday the sun is directly overhead”. That’s it. There is no reference in the Gemoro that once it moves something can block it. That was an alleged explanation of the Baal Hatanya. And it is so obvious that I’m beginning to wonder whether you were perhaps born in a cave and have never seen the sunlight and how the sun casts shadows.

    Finally, a sundial displays the time in shaos zemanios, so “between two and five in the afternoon” means that the sundial allegedly started malfunctioning two shaos zemanios after midday and the began functioning properly again a sha’ah zemanis before sunset. If you can plant trees that will affect a sundial only at those hours you deserve a Nobel Prize in Science!

    #1632817

    username123321
    Participant

    Of course this isn’t the only time he denigrates misnagdim in his memoirs. IT’s part of his purpose in writing the book!

    If you’ll notice, the Frierdiker Rebbe doesn’t deingrate all misnagdim. If you’d have read his Sichos carefully, you’ll notice that he never denigrated the Gra[1], for example, and neither did he denigrate the Nodah BeYehuda, Reb Chaim Volozhiner, the Shaagas Arye, the Toras Yekusiel, and all the more so the latter Frum non-Chassidic Rabbonim (Where does the Frierdiker talk bad about Reb Chaim Brisker or the Chofetz Chaim? Where does he bad mouth the Beis Heilivi or Reb Chaim Ozer?) To the best of my knowledge, almost none of the Misnagdim there were named!!

    But the main thing is that among the “Misnagdim” (which just means “those opposed to Chassidim[2]”) there were two camps:

    1. There were the Frum Misnagdim. People like the Gra, who opposed Chassidus because he was scared that what the Baal Shem Tov started was a way to get people OTD.

    2. There were the Maskilish Misnagdim – around the time of the Alter Rebbe and the Gra the Haskala movement was getting started in Russia, and while at that time they were still technically and culturally frum, they were holding on by a thread. Really, all they had in common with the Frum Misnagdim was that they kept the same Nusach, learned Gemara studiously, and were against “Pnimiyus HaTorah for the masses”. But since they externally looked frum, they ended up getting lumped together with the “Frum Misnagdim” into one basket called “Misnagdim”.

    So though they did the same things, they had diametrically opposed goals:

    Frum Misnagdim davened Nusach Ashkenaz because of Minhag Avoseinu. Maskilim davened Nusach Ashkenaz because “why not”. Frum Misnagdim learned Gemara because “Talmud Torah Keneged Kulam” while the Maskilim learned Gemara because it’s intellectually much more stimulating than the Zohar. Frum Misnagdim held that Kabbalah should be learned after one is full of Shas and Poskim, while the Maskillim felt that there’s no point learning it anyways, as it’s all (Ch V”sh) nonsense.

    So if you’ll notice the people the Frierdiker Rebbe had issues with, it’s the Maskilim and the proto-Maskilim. People who didn’t care to Daven and were just being Yotzei Zain and people who were learning hard so they’d be able to find the biggest Kullos. That doesn’t sound like the Brisker Derech to me.

    Within a few decades (around the time of the Tzemach Tzedek), the Maskilim went public, and it’s interesting that right after that the Charomim ended and the Frum Litvishers started working with Chassidim (including Lubavitch).

    But the truth is, I don’t remember ever seeing him say anything about those who had a machlokes on him. He just never brought it up.

    And you know what, I think that quite impressive.

    [1]. If anything, we say that he was a tremendous Gaon and the Tzemach Tzedek quotes his works on Niglah. The only thing is that he made a mistake[3] about what Chassidus was.
    [2]. They didn’t just oppose the Alter Rebbe, by the way. The Charomim started in the Baal Shem Tov and Mezritcher Maggid’s times.
    [3]. Considering that you’re a Chossid, I’d assume that you’d agree that your Rebbe’s Rebbe’s Rebbe wasn’t a Koifer and a Min.

    #1632818

    username123321
    Participant

    Since I joined another well-known but much smaller chassidus about a year after Gimel Tamuz I have witnessed less than twenty cases of drunkenness. But when I go to a Lubavitch wedding of one of my relatives there are always at least two drunks. And they are not the town drunks as they seem to rotate the honor.

    Yes. The Rebbe explicitly tried stopping that. Many times. It just has an extremely old history (it’s been going on back in Russia for a long time). And while it’s hard to break old habits, there is definitely a growing awareness among that drinking more than 4 is simply not Chassidish. So while it’s wrong, we all know it’s wrong.

    In category 2 we have “drinking is not a problem in Lubavitch” “proper tznius is not lacking in Luvabitch” “there are no real major fights between Lubavitchers” “shluchim don’t act in a selfish manner” and others.

    So out of those points, it’s simply not true that we don’t realize these things. The “no more than 4” Takana is there and Mashpiyim talk about it. People who care what the Rebbe said, won’t drink more than 4, and those who don’t care, do whatever they want anyways.

    The thing with Tznius is that I’m a guy, so I don’t know the details. But what I’ve heard from someone who’s hanging out with Lubavitch and Litvish is that it really depends on which circles within Chabad you frequent.

    The thing with Lubavitch is that there’s no such thing as “membership ID”. You have people who aren’t shomer Shabbbos yet who come to a Chabad house and call themselves “Chabad”. I don’t know how this works in other Chassidic circles, but practically anyone can walk into a Chabad shul and eat the herring, and no one will check if you put on Rabbeinu Tam that morning. So you have people that aren’t careful about Tznius who can call themselves Chabad, you have people that aren’t careful about anything who can call themselves Chabad.

    So it’s true that in other communities, someone who, say, has a TV at home will be asked to leave the school system and will be made uncomfortable in the community. I’m not blaming those communities, it makes sense – you don’t want to give a Hechsher to their behavior.

    But when you compare Crown Height to something, you can’t just compare it to Lakewood. You really have to compare it to Lakewood + Flatbush + Modern Orthodox, and it’s not fair to blame Chabad for Chabad lite and not blame Brisk for YU.

    But the truth is that there are plenty of Frum Lubavitchers. I mean, beards, Pas Yisroel and Chalav Yisroel is a baseline. I don’t think I ever walked into a Chabad house serving not Pas Yisrael or Chalav Yisrael foods. The most popular boys Cheder, by far, in Crown Heights doesn’t teach Limmudei Chol (and Man Dachar Shmei teaching Greek Mythology or novels), Kal Vachomer college is totally and completely forbidden in any Lubavitch Yeshiva. I can just imagine the look on Rabbi Labkovsky’s (the Rosh Yeshiva in 770) or Reb Yoel Kahan (the Mashpiya (Lubavitch equivalent of Mashgiach) of 770) face if you tell him that you want to go to college while in 770, or Rabbi Heller (the Rosh Kollel in Crown Heights) for that matter. Even after Kollel it’s heavily frowned at, and I don’t just mean secular college. I’m talking about places like Touro. The people who can, speak Yiddish to their children, and many send their children to Chadarim where the Melamdim teach only in Yiddish. Those who can’t (because they’re Israelis or because they’re BTs) obviously don’t. But it’s not out of the norm. And yes, there are many Lubavitch families without internet, or with heavily filtered internet, who won’t even go to Frum news sites because of Bittul Zman (which is why there are so few of us here, and the ones that do come here tend to be on the lighter side). All the more so that it’s a normal thing that Movies (old, clean, kosher, children’s. Doesn’t matter. Still Traif), sports, non-Jewish/not-Frum music (doesn’t matter if it’s clean or classical. Still Traif.) and non-Jewish/not-Frum books is completely Mufrach, and even regular Frum novels are “Ehh – it’s borderline.”

    In terms of Kashrus, being Makpid of Heimisher Hashgachos is quite common, and in Israel there are plenty of people who’ll only eat Badatz Eidah HaChareidis and Rav Landau Bnei Brak.

    There are plenty of people in Lubavitch who finish Shas. Some of them made big events for their Siyum which showed up online. I knew quite a few who didn’t. And remember that Lubavitch is a relatively small movement. Crown Heights has what, a few thousand families? And that’s the largest Chabad community in North America.

    We don’t rely on big-city Eiruvin, and only the litest of the lite Crown Heightsers rely on its Eiruv. And the same applies to other cities.

    And while I do admit that all this is fairly normal in the Chassidisher world, it definitely isn’t in the (American) Litvishe world, and definitely not by many of those who criticize us for not being Frum enough.

    #1632999

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    To the newest Chabad warriors who seem to think it’s unfathomable to deny stories told by Chabad Rebbes:

    Newsflash: none of the rest of us hold by those. None of us. It’s not just burntface.
    We don’t believe the Friedricker Rebbe’s stories about the Gra
    We don’t believe the Baal HaTanya was personally commissioned to write a S”A for all Chassidim
    We don’t believe the most recent Rebbe cured people’s cancer and blindness on a daily basis

    It may be blunt/offensive to use the word fabricated or made-up, but how else would untrue stories come into existence? And yet, you expect us to assume every tale uttered by ex-Lubavitchers who leave the system (truly frum, gezh Lubavitchers) about the drinking problem is false? You want us to believe in magic, but deny apparent realities like Chabad’s drinking problem.

    #1633042

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “We don’t rely on big-city Eiruvin, and only the litest of the lite Crown Heightsers rely on its Eiruv. And the same applies to other cities.

    And while I do admit that all this is fairly normal in the Chassidisher world, it definitely isn’t in the (American) Litvishe world, and definitely not by many of those who criticize us for not being Frum enough.”

    I do laud Chabad’s strictness with regards to eruvim. And, you are right that–on average–Lubavitchers are more likely to be machmir here than American Litvaks. Just one fact check: you said it’s more normal in the Chassidish world to be machmir on eruvin. This is not true. Most Chassidim have a mesora to be meikel in this halachah. Even to the degree that many hold by the Brooklyn eruvin.

Viewing 50 posts - 801 through 850 (of 2,053 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending