The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

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  • #1552523

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The mitzvah of pesach sheni disproves that. They were rewarded for demanding lama nigara?

    That wasn’t a demand.

    #1552524

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That was the Rebbe’s fervent wish.

    That’s a gross understatement. It was said as a certainty.

    #1552525

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    In any case Im not looking to prove how great the Rebbe is our the nevuos he said that came true –

    That’s a really bad idea to call his predictions nevuah. If his predictions were nevuah, he was a navi sheker ch”v, because some did not come true, most notably the immediate arrival of Moshiach.

    #1552530

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Icemelter,

    Wow, that is harsh, it seems like you take what Lubavitchers say very personally! However I don’t think it gives you a right to stoop to that level!

    Just wondering, have you ever been to a frabengen and heard that (I have never been to one so I don’t know, and did you hear that from adults (everything you said above) straight to your face, I’ve never heard any of that but I don’t hang around them too much

    #1552533

    icemelter
    Participant

    coffeeaddict- “Just wondering, have you ever been to a frabengen and heard that (I have never been to one so I don’t know”

    -Yes, coffeeaddict, and yes to the rest of your questions. Exactly, you havent been around them enough so thats why you dont know and buy into their propaganda of how everyone is out to get them. I dont blame you though. I wish this werent the case, but yes, I do know this personally and have been close enough to experience all of that. I think most people who are aware of this know exactly what I am talking about.

    But when you point out these bad characteristics you are labeled, a hater, a snag, a sonei lubavitch, chabad hater, misnaged, worthless litvak, and so on you get the point. Also take note that I did not attack, merely pointed out their faults. But you just cant win.

    #1552545

    RSo
    Participant

    This is what gets me and lefi aniyas daati is the source of so much of the problem: CS writing about the rebbe’s nevuos.

    They were not nevuos! In order to be nevuah it has to fit certain criteria and pass certain test (see Rambam Hilchos Yesodei Hatorah 7). Yes we believe in Ruach Hakodesh but not everyone who claims to have that does. And then there are some clever people who predict events that are going to happen due to a study of past and current events. That is not nevuah. To claim it is is to lower the standard of nevuah.

    Unfortunately there is no nevuah nowadays and the only one who says there is is lubvatich, and guess who they say it about…

    Just for our records, can you cite any authorittive lubavicth text published before 1950 that refers to nevuah in regards to the first six Lubavitch rebbes, the Maggid of Mezerich or the Besh”t? Why is it only about the last rebbe that we hear that he was a navi, or when he himself refers to his father-in-law as a navi?

    #1552612

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    icemelter – or should I say litvishechossid? Your unique but oft repeated rant gave you away. I thought it was one username per poster.

    #1558669

    knaidlach
    Participant

    wow! 107 posts about moshiach and geula! we are almost there, get ready!

    #1575770

    Bitul
    Participant

    Wow, Rso – and i thought that icemelters rants were bad…

    #1575854

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “I thought it was one username per poster.”

    What in the world gave you that idea?

    #1575923

    RSo
    Participant

    Bitul wrote: Wow, Rso – and i thought that icemelters rants were bad…

    I honestly don’t see that it was a rant. Just a statement of what I believe to be facts and a request for justification for ignoring those facts.

    #1576145

    Bitul
    Participant

    I apologize for not being clear enough – i was not referring to your last post about lefi anniyas daati. I was referring to post #1552495 in which you blatantly say that the Rebbe was WRONG because he said 25 years ago that Moshiach Is Here and he hasn’t come yet. That is very disrespectful and I’m surprised that CR mods allowed such impudence to be publicized. The Coffee Room should not be allowed to be used as a way of advocating an Anti-Chabad agenda.

    Obviously, you misunderstood the Rebbe’s talk of Chof Ches Nissan and the Sukkos Farbrengen of 5747 where the rebbe says that he has done all he could and that now it is up to us.
    When the Rebbe says that moshiach is here, it obviously means that moshiach has come already, and all we have to do is improve in our middos, and then we’ll merit his final and complete revelation. It is not a contradiction to say that moshiach is here, alive, and waiting for us to merit his coming. We see at the end of all the Rebbe’s sichos kodesh that-depending on the context-ends off with something along the lines of “and may we merit his complete and speedy redemption now in our days, Amen” (to which the Chassidim would respond with a thunderous “amen”) . It seems like a contradiction: how could the rebbe say that moshiach has come and then wish that he come soon?? obviously it’s too separate concepts- Moshiach has already arrived and once we do enough (the Rebbe outlines in many of his sichos that the way to do so is by spreading Yiddishkeit to all four corners of the world) we will merit his complete redemption.

    If something is still not understood by you, then let me know.

    #1576332

    YosefSebrow
    Participant

    In every generation there is a living moshiach, as per the Lubavitch pamphlets of my youth. The Rebbe died. Ergo, as per official Lubavitch belief of 30-35 years ago, it must be someone else. To say it’s still the Rebbe is to say that Lubavitch belief of 30-35 years ago was completely wrong and the Lubavitchers of that generation promulgated sheker.

    #1576334

    AidelB
    Participant

    @icemelter….. how many farbrengens have you gone to? Clearly many more than me to have witnessed and heard all of the above.

    #1576377

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    How can someone misunderstand one of the rebbes sichos without having heard it?

    #1576378

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    Btw the rambam says a navi will get up in the times of gog and magog ro explain it all so we can do teshuva.

    #1576379

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    I would rather say that we are in a state of milchemes gog and magog.

    #1576335

    icemelter
    Participant

    Bitul-“That is very disrespectful and I’m surprised that CR mods allowed such impudence to be publicized. The Coffee Room should not be allowed to be used as a way of advocating an Anti-Chabad agenda.”

    Look who’s talking about disrespectful after bashing every litvish gadol he can in previous topics posted. You cry about the CR as a place for advocating anti chabad? I think the mods enforce the comments even more than they  should.

    Edited – I don’t know how many times we need to edit your vitriol before you understand that it will not be posted. You will not change their website by complaining about it here, perhaps for your own well being you should stop reading it. -29

    #1576407

    RSo
    Participant

    Bitul: “When the Rebbe says that moshiach is here, it obviously means that moshiach has come already, and all we have to do is improve in our middos, and then we’ll merit his final and complete revelation.”

    Where did you find a source that differentiates between his “coming” and his “revelation”? We say Ani Maamin about “bi’as Hamashiach”, and I cannot recall every hearing about Mashiach’s supposed revelation except from invented Lubavich sources.

    So I stand by what I wrote, without meaning disrespect to anyone. If the Lubaviteher rebbe said Mashiach has come, he was wrong.

    Don’t you believe that the Satmar rebbe was wrong when he said that the Torah of teh Bsh”t was forgotten? Is that disrespectful?

    #1576642

    YosefSebrow
    Participant

    The rules of nevua are clear. If you say a bad prophecy and it doesn’t’ come true, then it doesn’t mean you’re a false prophet. If you say a good prophecy and it doesn’t come true, you don’t get to qualify it and say “he meant this but now it’s up to us to finish it”. No beis hamikdash today, we’re still in golus, and the rules of golus apply. Even die-hard Lubavitchers will agree that we’re still in galus and that there’s no beis hamikdash, even if they view 770 as the beis hamikdosh in golus.
    You’re a false prophet. The Rambam is rather clear on that. The Rebbe predicted multiple times moshiach was coming in the 80’s. So if you call him a navi, he’s a navi sheker.
    The answer is given in the book of Jeremiah. Jeremiah had been prophesying national disaster. The people had drifted from their religious vocation, and the result would be defeat and exile. It was a difficult and demoralizing message for people to hear. A false prophet arose, Hananiah son of Azzur, preaching the opposite. Babylon, Israel’s enemy, would soon be defeated. Within two years the crisis would be over. Jeremiah knew that it was not so, and that Hananiah was telling the people what they wanted to hear, not what they needed to hear. He addressed the assembled people:

    He said, “Amen! May the Lord do so! May the Lord fulfill the words you have prophesied by bringing the articles of the Lord’s house and all the exiles back to this place from Babylon. Nevertheless, listen to what I have to say in your hearing and in the hearing of all the people: From early times the prophets who preceded you and me have prophesied war, disaster and plague against many countries and great kingdoms. But the prophet who prophesies peace will be recognized as one truly sent by the Lord only if his prediction comes true.”

    Jeremiah makes a fundamental distinction between good news and bad. It is easy to prophesy disaster. If the prophecy comes true, then you have spoken the truth. If it does not, then you can say: G‑d relented and forgave. A negative prophecy cannot be refuted – but a positive one can. If the good foreseen comes to pass, then the prophecy is true. If it does not, then you cannot say, ‘G‑d changed His mind’ because G‑d does not retract from a promise He has made of good, or peace, or return.

    It is therefore only when the prophet offers a positive vision that he can be tested.

    #1578111

    JNN
    Participant

    we have been in a period of geula for 100 years
    but your portrayal that things are wonderful is way off
    things are terrible
    people struggle horribly, you must be young and not married to see everyone as being so rich

    #1578189

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    How do these threads keep happening? Chabad can’t blame us for starting this one.

    CS: Nobody is misunderstanding anyone. We all know that when Lubavitchers make vague references to Moshiach, they’re talking about the Rebbe and making hints that their fellow Meshichists will pick up on. You assume these references go over our heads; you’re wrong. It’s a mistake to assume all non-Lubavitchers are as unaware as the people you deal with in kiruv.

    I can only imagine, at this point, that the reason you keep making these posts is to either convince a few less-learned passerby’s, or to purposefully elicit a disproportionately angry response from certain anti-Chabad posters in order to appear as the more moderate side. As I hope you can understand, neither of those motivations is going to be particularly welcomed here. This is a forum for frum people, not people who need or want Chabad kiruv.

    #1578222

    apushatayid
    Participant

    why does everyone get all bent out of shape when a meshichist pops up and shares the party line in the cr?

    #1578383

    YosefSebrow
    Participant

    Rav Aharaon Kotler z”l and Rav Shach zt”l were both rather clear on the subject. The litvish view comes not from ignorance but from knowledge.

    #1578369

    Toi
    Participant

    @apush- It’s more about the way they’re attempting to make it mainstream by pushing it over and over, not so much the fact that they’re cuckoo for believing a dead Rebbe is Moshiach.

    #1578445

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “why does everyone get all bent out of shape when a meshichist pops up and shares the party line in the cr?”

    As Toi basically said, it’s not that they’re coming here and saying “I’m a Meshichist, here’s why…”
    Certain posters are basically insulting the intelligence of all non-Lubavitchers by trying to convince to that we’re misinterpreting every Meshichist statement they make. The cat’s out of the bag and they need to get over it. I know I’m going to catch flack for this, but I’m going to say it anyway: comfortably frum people don’t like being spoken to like they’re kiruv-cases. Chabadniks need to learn how to talk to other frum people. Whenever we give advice in the CR on how we would prefer to be spoken to, it goes completely ignored.

    #1578458

    apushatayid
    Participant

    @toi. That explains why some people get all bent out of shape?

    #1578479

    Rabban Yochanan Ben Zakkai
    “If you should happen to be holding a sapling in your hand when they tell you that the Messiah has arrived, first plant the sapling and then go out and greet the Messiah.”

    Is Moshiach really coming closer
    because people are messing up more than ever?

    #1578483

    If Chazal say that ,say,Iran’s conduct is a signpost for Moshiach then it proves this is Emes . Nevertheless, we still may not be zoche to it, depending on our behavior as a Jewish nation

    #1579020

    YosefSebrow
    Participant

    The Rambam is rather clear. Once someone dies, they are no longer eligible. Claiming the Rambam meant only killed not dies is kind of laughable, especially since the Chasam Sofer says quite clearly Rambam meant either or. Claiming the Rebbe didn’t die is also laughable. We all saw footage of the funeral. Plus I know one of the people who transported the body from the hospital. Tight chain of custody. No yechi chanting will change that.

    There’s a list of self-declared Moshiach candidates throughout the years- Yoshke, Shabsai Tzvi, Jacob Frank, R’ MM Shneerson, et al. Each time people say “this one is different”, he isn’t.

    #1579021

    YosefSebrow
    Participant

    Addendum- the Rashab (as quoted in Brisker Rav Volume III in the section on Zionism) makes it quite clear that we should not hasten the geula but wait for it to come.

    #1579022

    knaidlach
    Participant

    129 posts on the topic of moshiach and geula. WOW, for sure very close to geula

    #1615052

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    As my husband is away at the kinus and I have some time, I wanted to address two points that I didn’t follow up on yet:

    regarding demanding from Hashem, I brought proof from the positive response to the demand of lama nigara.

    Some have responded its not a demand.

    So to respond to that, yes it is. I mean just translate it. The yidden/ Moshe had times they davened nicely, they knew how to say please, as in Kel na refa na la… He was not a polite, “if it’s OK with you Hashem, we would love to have the zechus to bring the korban pesach…” Rather it was “lama nigara,” “Why should we miss out??”

    And Hashem was very happy with that, because He loved how much they cared for His mitzvos…

    To be continued

    #1615054

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Post two:

    This is far from the only instance of forceful language used in tanach. In fact regarding the pain of the churban golus, we find the expression in tehillim “Ad mosai yichoref tzor?!”

    Apparently there is a whole kinos written which starts off every stanza with ad mosai- until when??

    Another point:

    We can philosophize and bring proof along the above lines, but on a practical note, if cvs a dear family member is in danger, are you very careful to daven with the proper platitudes along the lines of “Hashem, if it’s OK with You and You’re up to it, please heal me relative. If You don’t want to, I’ll accept that too.”

    Or do you scream with pain and say “Hashem, save her! She’s your child!! We deserve better!!” Etc

    One may say well, yes we would choose the latter, but that’s because we’re speaking from pain. But with the Geula, we should use proper polite platitudes…

    Then that is exactly the issue!! Why should the Shechina being in golus, and the entire Am Yisrael unable to see and experience Hashem in a revealed way, exiled from our Father’s table, matter less to us than an individual yids suffering?? We should all cry out to Hashem Ad mosai?? We want moshiach now!!

    #1615071

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    So to respond to that, yes it is. I mean just translate it. The yidden/ Moshe had times they davened nicely, they knew how to say please, as in Kel na refa na la… He was not a polite, “if it’s OK with you Hashem, we would love to have the zechus to bring the korban pesach…” Rather it was “lama nigara,” “Why should we miss out??”

    Moshe davenend קל נא רפא נא לה not klal yisrael
    The prop the couldn’t bring the קרבן פסח were asking “why should we lose out on bringing the קרבן פסח if we were doing a מצוה and שכר מצוה מצוה and מצוה גוררת מצוה

    #1615163

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Yes I know I wrote BY/ Moshe… In the quote I gave, it was Moshe.

    I’m not sure what the rest of what you wrote is negating. That is my point too. They were upset to lose out on a mitzva, and used strong language to express it. Hashem was happy. Hashem is also very happy when we cry out for the Geula from the depths of our heart and are not lackadaisical about it because in truth we couldn’t care less… Aderabe the more we cry out, the more we show we care. And the more nachas we give Hashem, and cause Him to want to bring the Geula sooner. Especially as He Himself suffers in golus with us and will be redeemed with us, as chazal explain on vshav Hashem Elokecha es shvuscha… Vhaishiv lo neemar ela vshav…

    #1615224

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Hashem is also very happy when we cry out for the Geula from the depths of our heart and are not lackadaisical about it because in truth we couldn’t care less… Aderabe the more we cry out, the more we show we care. And the more nachas we give Hashem, and cause Him to want to bring the Geula sooner.

    Do you have a source for that? All I know is one of the אני מאמין says that אחכה לו he doesn’t say that we will demand him now

    #1615421

    RSo
    Participant

    CS since when is Lama Nigara a demand or even a request? It is a question, insinuating a request but only a demand.

    Furthermore, deciding what gives Hashem nachas, other than kiyum hamitzvos and limud Hatorah, is dangerously close to what other sections of our brethren do, e.g. Hashem prefers people drive to shul than to stay home.

    No, I’m not comparing “demanding Moshiach” to driving on Shabbos. I’m just comparing the way you decide what gives Hashem nachas.

    #1615438

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @rso its quite strange to me at least that you make as if desperately wanting moshiach is a negative thing. I’ve posted above regarding 1) how often and urgent we request in davening – MEHEIRA satzmiach 2) ad mosai in tehillim and kinos 3) lama nigara

    How do we know that this is what Hashem wants?! Can you bring me one source that Hashem is happy that were in golus? He’d like it better if we’d tone down the rhetoric and desire to get out of golus?

    There are tens of sources otherwise.
    1) VSHAV Hashem – He is in golus and suffering with us.2) appeared to Moshe in a thorn bush to symbolise that any time were in pain, He is too. Etc.

    And you make as if I’m the one creating things in Yiddishkeit? It maybe the Rebbe?

    I’m very curious. Where do you get the idea that its a good thing to be quiet about golus? And a bad thing to cry out for moshiach? Cuz I don’t see it in Torah

    #1615456

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Looking forward to seeing your sources. One more thing : are you similarly inclined to protest when someone uses strong language when crying out for a relative who is sick? Or is this criticism picky reserved for davening for the whole klal Yisrael to go back to living how we should, out of golus?

    That being said, welcome back. Haven’t seen you post in some time

    #1615576

    RSo
    Participant

    Thanks for the welcome back.

    To take last things first (I’ve already started with your very last line), there is a big difference between accepting what people do in times of stress or anguish and saying that what they do is proper. This is one of the explanations of the statement of “avel ein lo peh” – a mourner doesn’t have a mouth. We can’t blame him for saying things that should not have been said, but it doesn’t mean that he’s right in doing so. As we see in the Gemara that even someone doing nichum aveilim is not allowed to say, “What can be done?” as it implies that if we could do something we would do it despite Hashem having decreed otherwise.

    Back to the original issue: regardless of the pain they may have felt, lama nigara is NOT a demand. It is a question?

    CS, you may be doing fantastic work in your chabad house etc but please realize that the rest of the coffee room – at least those who aren’t Lubavichers – won’t just accept the fact that your rebbe said something as a valid source. So please, if you want to convince us that DEMANDING Mashiach is the correct thing to do, quote us a non-Lubavich source.

    I understand that a Lubavich source is good enough for you, but it’s not good enough for you to get us to agree.

    #1615584

    Toi
    Participant

    We don’t demand from Hashem. All the sources you cited from tehillim/kinos are lamenting something, not demanding from Hashem. Interestingly, the way you framed how you think is crazy to daven is exactly how to daven. The Chovos Halvavos brings a tefillah that someone big (obviously, if the CH”H is quoting him) added to the end of shemona esrei, stating exactly that: “Hashem we want whatever your ratzon is, and if I’ve davened for something that doesn’t jive with that, please disregard my tefillah. If it is your ratzon, please accept my tefillah.”
    Our avoda is to bring out kavod shomayim, not to demand things from God. Anyway, I know this isn’t going anywhere productive. You’re head is so far down the chabad rabbit hole that you can’t believe there’s another way to think.

    #1615622

    kaiserW
    Participant

    Toi,

    Perhaps, just as ChabadShlucha is siding with one opinion brought by gedolei yisroel and refuses to recognize the other opinion as legitimate, maybe, just maybe you are doing the same thing?
    In Torah one can have two opinions that totally disagree with each other and we still say “אלו ואלו דא”ח”

    With regards to the point being discussed.

    The following is a quote from a article. The source brought is Sichot Chafetz Chaim, par. 14. I do not own that sefer, and could not find it online on hebrewbooks or other websites. If someone could quote the priginal that would be much appreciated.
    “We pray for the redemption several times every day. Even so, requesting by itself is not enough. One must demand the redemption, just as with the wages of a hired worker: the law stipulates that if the worker does not demand his wages, there is no obligation to give it to him on the very day that he completes his work. So, too, we must demand our redemption. Failure to do so shows that this matter is clearly not that urgent to us!”

    To summarize: as in most concepts in Yiddishkeit, there are different opinions. On Davening in general, one can find numerous shittos (in Rishonim) on what one accomplishes, why do we need to ask, and similar questions. The fact that the Chovos Halevavos brings one, does not in any way negate the others. Hence the concept of מחלוקת in Judaism. Same applies here.

    #1615734

    samthenylic
    Participant

    WHY are we so busy with the GEULA?! The RAM”BAM in the beginning
    of Hilchos Melachim/Moshiach states that we SHOULD NOT SPEND TOO MUCH TIME DELVING INTO THESE HALOCHOS. Anshei K’nesses Hagdola were mesaken to pray 3X a day in our tefillos for the Geula. Also we have to learn those inyanim, just like the whole Torah, not at the expense of neglecting the rest of Tora CH”V. So stop meshiaching already! “Beito Achisheno” if we learn “TORAH LISHNO”!

    #1616175

    Toi
    Participant

    @kaiserW- just so we’re clear, I’m supposed to accept a paragraph from a sefer you cannot verify as existing, nor have I ever heard of it (though that’s not a raaya, I’m an am haaretz :)), as sufficient proof against a chovos halvavos?

    #1616176

    RSo
    Participant

    Any chance of someone posting the actual primary source, cited by kasierW, where the Chofetz Chaim “demands” Moshiach? It would be very interesting to see.

    #1616185

    RSo
    Participant

    I found it! At least, I found someone who quoted the source, but I haven’t found where the Chofetz Chaim wrote it.

    It is in Chofetz Chaim al Hatefillah siman 168 where he says that one should demand the geulah.

    So there does definitely seem to be a difference of opinion.

    #1616310

    samthenylic
    Participant

    OK, demand the Geulah, but!, be osek b’Torah too. Don’t spend the whole day delving into it I.E. the RAM”BAM.
    We have to ask Geulah because :Shechina b’goluso”, and that requires ALSO limud haTora.

    #1616427

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    RSo- nice work.
    There still remains a big difference between demanding geula, and putting it as a tafkid or top priority over other things.

    #1616460

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    There is so much semantics involved in some of these answers that points, whether right or wrong, seem to be fetting lost. For instance, and i will use a totally random topic for the sake of neutralty, CS says we should all demand chcolate cake for dessert, and when someone redponds that we should ask not demand she replied, “So you think chocolate cake is bad? So you think i dont want you to have it?”

    The fact that people say we should daven for moshiach instead of demanding it is NOT the same as saying we don’t think it’s a good thing. And to compare demanding an opportunity to fulfill a mitzva with a demand for moshiach is apples and oranges. Thats like demanding a diploma instead of taking classes because the diploma makes your parents prpud. No, *earning and deserving* the diploma makes your parents proud. Not just the receipt.

    You dont have to agree with each other, but at least answer the arguments according to what is being argued.

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