The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

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  • #1652412

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    “Note the Rambam never discusses what happens if the bchezkas moshiach passes away naturally. He only says two things disqualify: If he is unsuccessful or if he is killed”

    In the interest of intellectual honesty, I’d like to point out the before Gimmel Tammuz, it was very Poshut to any Lubavitcher that Moshiach must come from the living. No one had ever come up with these diyukim of “it says Nehrag, not meis”. After Gimmel Tammuz however, many now realized that they had a problem reconciling their beliefs with the unfortunate reality. So there were two approaches, one was “true, Moshiach must be alive, but the Rebbe simply never was Nistalek, he’s still alive in a Guf Gashmi”, the other approach is that of course, the Rebbe passed away, however, Moshiach could be Min HaMeisim. While the second one is obviously less delusional, nobody would have ever thought that way before Gimmel Tammuz.

    #1652522

    samthenylic
    Participant

    If he passes away, he is unsuccessful, since he can’t continue to do what he set out to do! Wrap your minds around it: THE REBBE IS not MOSHIACH, Clear?

    #1652500

    K-cup
    Participant

    “The role of a Rebbe is that by strengthening your connection to him you strengthen your connecting to Hashem.”
    The Ramabams Hilchos Ovodas Cochavim says very similar to how you’ve been explaining that.
    “וזו היתה טעותם אמרו הואיל והאלהים ברא כוכבים אלו וגלגלים להנהיג את העולם ונתנם במרום וחלק להם כבוד והם שמשים המשמשים לפניו ראויין הם לשבחם ולפארם ולחלוק להם כבוד וזהו רצון האל ברוך הוא לגדל ולכבד מי שגדלו וכבדו כמו שהמלך רוצה לכבד העומדים …לפניו וזהו כבודו של ”
    “If it really was a problem and distracted from Hashem, then MY generation would have mostly forgotten Hashem cvs or Chabad would have broken down and joined other groups”
    The meshichist are unfortunately already viewed as another group. I have witnessed Meshichists thrown out of three seperate Chabad shuls for chanting “yechi” (I frequent chabad shuls and events as my relatives are Chabad, one Baltimore, Philadelphia, & one Chabad Shtieble in Montreal). I have seen many Chasidic Litvish “mixed marraiges”, myself included. I doubt anyone has witnessed that with meshichists, unless one partner became a meshichist before they were even redt the shidduch. Meshichists are their own group already.
    I’m not saying they dont give tzedakah to all Jews, or are bad neighbors. Meshichists are not necessarily Kofrim, but they are not viewed in Orthodox Judaisim as just “eilu v’eilu”. In general all other Chassidim are, Chabad included. Meshichists views are just not viewed as part of the same group as the rest.

    #1652497

    RSo
    Participant

    SHY: “In the interest of intellectual honesty…”

    Thank you for that! I remember clearly – and I think I may have posted it earlier – lubavichers saying before gimmel Tammuz that the rebbe must be mashiach because he is the greatest living tzaddik. “Look around and tell me who is greater,” was the standard argument.
    I don’t think it took them 24 hours to say that Mashiach can come from the dead.

    #1652496

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: ” I’m saying that just as Shimshon is considered shofet 40 years in Torah, even though he only physically led them for 20, because his influence continued after his passing, so too here”

    It does NOT say that he was shofet for 40 years. Rather it says twice that he was shofet 20 years. The Radak discusses this and he is the one who cites a midrash which says that the second time it says it to indicate that the Plishtim were scared of him for twenty years after his petirah.

    No one that I have found claims that he was considered a shofet after he was niftar.

    #1652494

    RSo
    Participant

    Sechel: “That’s wonderful, but that isn’t Koveah Halacha. Ma Zaroy BaChayim Af Hu doesn’t mean that the Rebbe is considered physically alive in the sense that if we weren’t continuing his legacy, he couldn’t be Moshiach, but now that we are, he can. Halacha simply doesn’t work that way.”

    There’s a point that you have missed. The gemoro says, as you quoted, ma zaroy bachayim… But that is referring to physical descendents. Unfortunately, the late lubavicher rebbe did not have any physical descendents, so it can’t apply to him.

    Yes, I know. You, or CS or someone else, will claim that his chassidim are descendants. But that’s a distortion of the gemoro, which some of you have distorted more than enough already.

    #1652493

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “Rso wrote that shlucho shel adam kmoso is cancelled when the meshaleach dies.
    Question: A) What’s the source for that? B) Is it referring to future shlichus or even past ones that the person physically appointed? Ie if someone sends a shliach with a shtar eirusin for his daughter, and he meshaleiach dies before the shliach reaches the chosson, is it automatically cancelled?”

    A) The gemoro and halocho.
    B) (I don’t know why you picked a shtar eirusin and not stam sent a shliach kiddushin. Methinks you are getting “support” from a male, which is fine with me.) Yes, It is automatically cancelled!

    #1652492

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “If it really was a problem and distracted from Hashem, then MY generation would have mostly forgotten Hashem cvs or Chabad would have broken down and joined other groups as many predicted”

    Funny you should say that because many of us do indeed believe that you have at least partially strayed in the same way other groups have. It’s just that you have retained independence and still call yourselves Chabad.

    #1652483

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS

    “when you look at the results you will see it is the truth. If it really was a problem and distracted from Hashem, then MY generation would have mostly forgotten Hashem cvs or Chabad would have broken down and joined other groups as many predicted. The fact that not only are we not decreasing, but we’re growing stronger shows something”

    The truth? Hardly. I do concede that it does show something…just not what you think.

    #1652481

    CS
    Participant

    YR I understand you and I see such quotes are quite unusual outside of lubavitch. My chief point is (we can argue sources today till tomorrow been there done that) that if people in Chabad were making it up as a result of gimmel tammuz, we would be alarmed. But that’s not the case. The truth is pretty much all those over the top quotes the REBBE himself made about the Frierdiker Rebbe, his Rebbe, the year after his histalkus. Including the Rebbe saying he is with us in this Gashmius world, running the world by being morer rachamim above etc. So we haven’t gone crazy. We’re just following in our Rebbe’s ways. And as the Rebbe was acknowledged as a tzadik by many other gedolei Yisrael (and yes there were those that didn’t hold of the Rebbe) we obviously as his chassidim consider him to be such, and as such, such quotes about our Rebbe aren’t problematic even if they would be in a kreiz where the rosh Yeshiva etc. would not condone such statements.

    #1652479

    CS
    Participant

    Sechel, chassidim thought gimmel tammuz wouldn’t happen for several reasons, from what I understand the shmos chov vov sicha being chief among them. Obviously they had no reason to study the Rambam in that sense as closely, as there was no need. Additionally, even today we are saying that the bchezkas moshiach has to be established when the person is alive. No one is negating that. The question only is what if the person DID fulfill bchezkas moshiach but then passed away yet their work is ongoing so you cannot say lo hitzliach ad ko? That’s what we’re discussing here. Note you didn’t answer my question. I really would appreciate a straight answer.

    #1652548

    CS
    Participant

    On another note, but on topic, what do you all think of the nibiru theory connecting to the dorach kochav miyaakov etc as elaborated on the Zohar? Especially with theOumuamua discovery this year?

    Also apparently the rash of eruptions, earthquakes, tsunamis etc are also foretold in the nevuos as being signs of moshiach?

    Some are saying they are signs of the change in our planet due to the incoming planet / star. Have you all heard of this?

    #1652550

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    “The question only is what if the person DID fulfill bchezkas moshiach but then passed away yet their work is ongoing so you cannot say lo hitzliach ad ko? That’s what we’re discussing here. Note you didn’t answer my question. I really would appreciate a straight answer.”
    As I have written previously, the Rebbe was not Chezkas Moshiach. He simply didn’t fulfill it. There’s no way to read the Rambam and understand otherwise.

    #1652552

    username123321
    Participant

    Note the Rambam never discusses what happens if the bchezkas moshiach passes away naturally. He only says two things disqualify: If he is unsuccessful or if he is killed”

    OK. I’ll ask the million dollar question.

    Instead of hashing it out, let’s talk sources. Can someone find a source, any source, that mentions this Diyuk or argues on this Diyuk from before 1994?

    #1652553

    CS
    Participant

    Rso I didn’t have male support for that but thanks for the compliment (?). Just curious why is shtar eirusin more indicative of a male than shliach kiddushin?

    In any case if what you’re saying is true (you didn’t post the mm just said gemara) that the shlucho shel adam kmoso is retroactively cancelled halachically if the meshaleiach passes away, then I take that point back. It was my own. The shimshon point though I think still stands. (That I did have male support for if you’d like – a male sent me pages of a Sefer discussing it.)

    #1652557

    CS
    Participant

    K cup as brought previously it is avoda zara if not within Hashem’s system. Ie the difference between the egel and Moshe rabbeinu was that one was that Moshe rabbeinu was a Rebbe (Hashem’s system and we’re all the same neshama etc) and the egel was an outside entity that the yidden came up with to replace Moshe. That’s why going to the egel to go to Hashem is avoda zara while going to Moshe to ask for both Gashmius and Ruchnius, and he then asking Hashem, was great (- provided they asked properly etc.) and any rebel against Moshe was a rebel against Hashem.

    #1652561

    username123321
    Participant

    It does NOT say that he was shofet for 40 years. Rather it says twice that he was shofet 20 years. The Radak discusses this and he is the one who cites a midrash which says that the second time it says it to indicate that the Plishtim were scared of him for twenty years after his petirah.

    The Yerushalmi (Sotah) does, but it’s most likely a typo.

    . כתוב אחד אומר וישפוט את ישראל מ’ שנה. וכתוב א’ אומר (שם) והוא שפט את ישראל ך’ שנה. אמר ר’ אחא מלמד שהיו הפלשתים יראים ממנו ך’ שנה לאחר מותו כדרך שהיו יראים ממנו ך’ שנה בחייו:

    #1652588

    CS
    Participant

    I was gonna post the yerushalmi and one other source (it was cut off in the picture but I can ask for it) but you beat me to it username. not sure why you write dismissively it was a typo?aside from the fact that we don’t eat fish and milk because of a typo and not even one in the gemara – what gives you the right to think that? This is gemara…

    #1652596

    CS
    Participant

    Sechel
    “As I have written previously, the Rebbe was not Chezkas Moshiach. He simply didn’t fulfill it. There’s no way to read the Rambam and understand otherwise.”

    Fine so if you concede on the “it can’t be according to the Rambam after gimmel tammuz” point, but now the remaining issue is how did the Rebbe fit bchezkas moshiach to begin with, I’ll address that. Like I said i want to work backwards.

    #1652597

    CS
    Participant

    Username:

    “OK. I’ll ask the million dollar question.

    Instead of hashing it out, let’s talk sources. Can someone find a source, any source, that mentions this Diyuk or argues on this Diyuk from before 1994?”

    Not that I am aware of but why would that matter? The Rebbe as you know was very into diyukim in rashi and Rambam as they were written with ruach hakodesh. Before gimmel tammuz no one cared to look too closely at the lashon because there was no need. But really username you know the Rebbe explained many diyukim in Rashi and Rambam even this Rambam. The one that comes to mind is the diyuk on the word bimkomo. That’s quite a chiddush to make based on a word, don’t you think?more than this I would say….

    Aside from the fact that the Rebbe said about the Frierdiker Rebbe that he can still be moshiach even after yud shvat.

    #1652600

    K-cup
    Participant

    CDS
    I know you can read a Rambam, and probably know that Rambam already. He clearly says what the the problem is, and it exactly what you say makes it kosher.
    “avoda zara if not within Hashem’s system… the egel was an outside entity that the yidden came up with”
    Here’s the English Rambam from Chabad.org

    Their mistake was as follows: They said God created stars and spheres with which to control the world. He placed them on high and treated them with honor, making them servants who minister before Him. Accordingly, it is fitting to praise and glorify them and to treat them with honor. [They perceived] this to be the will of God, blessed be He, that they magnify and honor those whom He magnified and honored, just as a king desires that the servants who stand before him be honored. Indeed, doing so is an expression of honor to the king.
    They clearly percieved it within the system. The Ramabm goes on as everyone knows and says only later false prophets took them away from Hashem, they remembered who they ultimately were serving, just they had an intemidiary. An I termediary who was closer to Hashem, who if they honored also honerd Hashem ect..

    #1652654

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “the remaining issue is how did the Rebbe fit bchezkas moshiach to begin with, I’ll address that. Like I said i want to work backwards.”

    You have already addressed it by misquoting and misusing the Rambam, as I have shown you point by point in an earlier post, but you didn’t address that.

    #1652663

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    “Aside from the fact that the Rebbe said about the Frierdiker Rebbe that he can still be moshiach even after yud shvat.”

    So, according to you, the FR was Chezkas Moshiach, and still could be because “Meis not Neherag”, when did he lose his Chazaka? Perhaps he is still Moshiach?

    I’m not trying to laugh at you, I’m actually making a point here. If the FR was B’Chezkas Moshiach, and still retained that status after Yud Shvat, then the rest of your beliefs are nonsense. Obviously, the FR was never Chezkas Moshiach, and quite frankly, neither was the Rebbe. I ask you again, read the Rambam, and turn on the Mochin Machine™, not the Middos Machine, and please tell me with a straight face that the Rebbe was Chezkas Moshiach.

    #1652653

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: ” Just curious why is shtar eirusin more indicative of a male than shliach kiddushin?”
    Not more indicative, just more of a regular case. I can’t recall the Gemoro discussing someone sending a shliach to be mekadesh with a shtar eirusin, while sending a shliach to be mekadesh a woman with money is often mentioned. However, there is really no difference between the two.

    ” The shimshon point though I think still stands.”
    It doesn’t because, as I wrote, the passuk doesn’t say 40 years.

    In a later post you ask: ” was gonna post the yerushalmi and one other source (it was cut off in the picture but I can ask for it) but you beat me to it username. not sure why you write dismissively it was a typo?”
    Because there are hundreds, if not thousands, of typos in Yerushalmi. Here, however, Tosfos (Shabbos 52b) writes that the Yerushalmi had a different nusach in the possuk! Others disagree and say that it is a typo.
    Nonetheless, even if we take it that the Yerushalmi had a different nusach, the Yerushalmi itself concludes that the possuk means that the Plishtim were scared of Shimshon for 20 years after his death. So even the Yerushalmi does not say the he was a shofet after his death.

    Interestingly, the Korbon Ho’edah – perhaps THE primary meforash on the Yerushalmi – explains that they were scared for those extra 20 years because they thought he may still be alive. Reminds me of something, but I can’t put my finger on it…

    #1652750

    username123321
    Participant

    not sure why you write dismissively it was a typo?aside from the fact that we don’t eat fish and milk because of a typo and not even one in the gemara – what gives you the right to think that? This is gemara…

    I wasn’t dismissive. It’s just known than the Yerushalmi has a lot of typos, since it wasn’t (and isn’t) learned nearly as often as the Bavli. It also had fewer Kisvei Yad for the same reason. Especially when it quotes a Pasuk that doesn’t exist.

    #1652752

    username123321
    Participant

    Not that I am aware of but why would that matter?

    Because you can argue Sevara from today till tomorrow. Without sources it’s a useless debate. It’s a Yeshiva world coffeeroom. In Yeshivas, it’s common to try to find Mekoros :).

    And it’s as much of a request from RSo, DY, SHY, YR as it is of you. Can you cite sources (from before 1994) who said that it’s Lav Davka “killed”?

    The Rebbe as you know was very into diyukim in rashi and Rambam as they were written with ruach hakodesh.

    Yes, I trust the Rebbe’s Diyukim, or Reb Chaim Brisker’s diyukim, and all the more so the Kessef Mishna and the Maggid Mishna’s Diyukim. Not mine or yours.

    But that’s what I’m looking for, sources one way or the other.

    Before gimmel tammuz no one cared to look too closely at the lashon because there was no need.

    That’s why I’m specifically looking for a source pre 1994.

    #1652754

    username123321
    Participant

    They clearly percieved it within the system. The Ramabm goes on as everyone knows and says only later false prophets took them away from Hashem, they remembered who they ultimately were serving, just they had an intemidiary. An I termediary who was closer to Hashem, who if they honored also honerd Hashem ect..

    The mistake they made was that Hashem never told us to worship the stars, while Hashem did tell us to cling to Torah scholars, and clinging to Torah scholars does increase our service of Hashem. On a simple level, the Torah scholar teaches us Torah and tells us how to do Mitzvos. On a deeper level, he inspires us to serve Hashem, and on an even deeper level, by teaching us פנימיות התורה he inspires us to serve Hashem with a Chayus, with דחילו ורחימו. In other words, the entire Tachlis of connecting to a Talmid Chacham is so that he’ll guide us in serving Hashem. In contrast, the stars said “you can’t serve Hashem. He’s too lofty. Serve me instead and I’ll take care of the rest”.

    #1652756

    username123321
    Participant

    however, Tosfos (Shabbos 52b) writes that the Yerushalmi had a different nusach in the possuk!

    Where does Tosfos say that? I don’t see it there.

    Nonetheless, even if we take it that the Yerushalmi had a different nusach, the Yerushalmi itself concludes that the possuk means that the Plishtim were scared of Shimshon for 20 years after his death. So even the Yerushalmi does not say the he was a shofet after his death.

    The proof isn’t from the Pasuk, it’s from the Yerushalmi.

    The Maharsha (on Sotah 10a) says:

    ותירצו המפרשים בזה לפי שכפל הענין לכתוב שני פעמים ששפט כ’ שנה וע”כ אמר כתוב אחד אומר כ’ שנה והיינו קרא קמא וכתוב אחד דהיינו קרא שני הוסיף עוד עשרים שנה דה”ל ארבעים עם עשרים הראשונים ומשני התם דפלשתים היו יראים ממנו כ’ שנה אחר מותו ולפי דרך זה יש לקיים גירסת תלמוד שלנו דכצ”ל זכור לי עשרים שתים שנה דר”ל זכור שתי פעמים עשרים שנה דכתיבי בשני פסוקים דהיינו ארבעים שנה ואפשר שחלקן הכתוב משום דבקרא קמא מפורש וישפוט את ישראל בימי פלשתים עשרים שנה דהיינו בעוד שהיו פלשתים מושלים עשרים שנה ובאידך קרא לא כתב בימי פלשתים שנכנעו שוב בעשרים שנה השניים שפט אותן כ’ שנה דה”ל שני פעמים עשרים דהיינו מ’ שנה ודו”ק:

    So according to the Yerushalmi, one Pasuk (one “20 year” period) refers to when Shimshon was alive, and the second Pasuk (the second “20 year” period) refers to Shimshon after his passing. So when the Pasuk said “ה֛וּא שָׁפַ֥ט אֶת־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל עֶשְׂרִ֥ים שָׁנָֽה”, it calls him a Shofet even after his passing. True, after he was killed he didn’t do much of what a Shofet did. But it seems that scaring away the Plishtim was enough to give him the title of a Shofet.

    #1652783

    K-cup
    Participant

    “The mistake they made was that Hashem never told us to worship the stars”
    Is that in the Rambam? He says the mistake was in the calculation, he hardly touches the actual worship of stars. It’s even more clear in Hebrew the mistake was in the thinking honoring those closer to Hashem is like honoring Hashem. I guess unless it’s a Rebbe

    #1652778

    RSo
    Participant

    username: “Where does Tosfos say that? I don’t see it there.”

    Sorry. Typo. Shabbos 55b d”h Maavirom.

    I disagree about your take on the Yerushalmi. Being a shofet means judging, and the possuk, according to the Yerushalmi, says that he was a shofet for 40 years, which the Yerushalmi interprets as meaning only that the Plishtim were scared of him for 20 after his death. This is corroborated by the Korban Ho’edah who explains that it was just that they thought he was alive. So he wasn’t really a shofet then even according to the Yerushalmi.

    #1652806

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    In the interest of intellectual honesty, I’d like to point out the before Gimmel Tammuz, it was very Poshut to any Lubavitcher that Moshiach must come from the living. No one had ever come up with these diyukim of “it says Nehrag, not meis”. After Gimmel Tammuz however, many now realized that they had a problem reconciling their beliefs with the unfortunate reality. So there were two approaches, one was “true, Moshiach must be alive, but the Rebbe simply never was Nistalek, he’s still alive in a Guf Gashmi”, the other approach is that of course, the Rebbe passed away, however, Moshiach could be Min HaMeisim. While the second one is obviously less delusional, nobody would have ever thought that way before Gimmel Tammuz.

    Just curious why the obvious third choice, that he’s not Moshiach, is so uncommon.

    #1652896

    samthenylic
    Participant

    That the Rebbe is NOT Moshiach the can’t swallow, because he himself said that he is “Shevi’i kodesh Lashem”…. They can not accept any other scenario, & therefore they insist ….. as off the mark as it may be.

    #1652909

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    “because he himself said that he is “Shevi’i kodesh Lashem”…”
    Sam, as you are well versed in the Rebbes Sichos, please tell me, where and when did the Rebbe say those words?

    #1652922

    Chossid
    Participant

    “because he himself said that he is “Shevi’i kodesh Lashem”….”
    It think you should be quiet in stuff you don’t have a clue what your talking about
    Your say too much stupid comments.
    Btw still waiting for you to answer my questions

    #1652929

    Chossid
    Participant

    *You write….

    #1652961

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Does anyone want to address the fact that the Rebbe said “הגיע זמן גאולתכם “בתורת נבואה
    As I was told by Lubavichers years before ג’ תמוז
    I also heard that the Rebbe said
    מיר זיצען צוזאמען ביי איין טיש מיט משיח
    If that was not referring to himself I don’t know what would be. Surely nobody expected him to say b’peh maleh “I am Moshiach”!

    #1652964

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    As far as the Rambam is concerned, I think it’s pretty obvious the reason the Rambam didn’t say אם מת is because that it’s included in אם לא עשה והצליח

    #1653022

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    As far as the Rambam is concerned, there are two very obvious reasons why he chose to write neherag rather than meis. The more famous one is that he is referring to the actual case of Bar Kochba, who was killed. Everybody knows that the derech of the Rambam is not to be mechadeish dinim but to stick as closely as possible to the words of Chazal. The other (and to my aniyus daas more likely) explanation is that the Rambam understands locheim milchamos Hashem kipshuto, that Moshiach will be engaged in fighting actual, physical wars. As such one who is not truly Moshiach will likely end up neherag, rather than simply meis.

    And to Shlucha’s assertion that no one bothered to be medayeik in the loshon hoRambam before Gimmel Tammuz because “it wasn’t necessary” – are you kidding?! Almost eight centuries of talmidei chachomim horeving on every kutzoh shel yud of the Rambam, including the entire seforim that are not practically relevant today, and nobody noticed this diyuk because it wasn’t necessary? Come on!

    #1653086

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Rambam might have a proof from Moshiach ben Josef where after he was killed he was not Moshiach any more.

    #1653111

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    Except that the Arizal explains, based in Midrashim, that Moshiac ben Yosef’s demise is not a foregone conclusion.

    #1653191

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS

    ” The truth is pretty much all those over the top quotes the REBBE himself made about the Frierdiker Rebbe, his Rebbe, the year after his histalkus. Including the Rebbe saying he is with us in this Gashmius world, running the world by being morer rachamim above etc. So we haven’t gone crazy. We’re just following in our Rebbe’s ways. And as the Rebbe was acknowledged as a tzadik by many other gedolei Yisrael…”

    The Gedolim who understood the last Lubavitcher Rebbe’s words the way you do did not acknowledge him as such. The ones who did where 1) unaware of the controversial statements OR 2) where aware of them but refused to believe that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe actually said them, OR 3) understood the statements in line with how SH and Username do.

    The scope of my disagreement with SH and Username are nuanced, not unique to Chabad, and a distraction from the more pressing issues being addressed . I am sure they realize that in this case shtika is not k’hodah.

    #1653202

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    About Moshiach ben Josef look at Sukkoh 52, the Marshoh and Iyun Yaakov, he will be killed in the Gog and Mogag war to give atonement for Yerovom ben Navot. Both will be true, Aisov falls in the hand of Josef and Moshiach comes from Dovid.

    #1653214

    CS
    Participant

    TT is back. I thought you were permanently blocked or something. Interesting. As said I was born a couple months before gimmel tammuz so I don’t know much about what went on then chassidim wise. I have a question for you, username, sechel etc. How do you put together likutei sichos chelek beis p 518, and likutei sichos chelek lamed hei, vayigash fn 6?

    And TT did everyone hold of the Rebbe then as being bchezkas moshiach, or just Nossi hador moshiach shebador?

    #1653239

    RSo
    Participant

    SHY (and chossid said the same in a more attacking tone): ““because he himself said that he is “Shevi’i kodesh Lashem”…”
    Sam, as you are well versed in the Rebbes Sichos, please tell me, where and when did the Rebbe say those words?”

    OK, he didn’t say those words, but what I think sam was referring to was saying that he is dor shvi’i.

    #1653240

    RSo
    Participant

    Did I misunderstand, or did TomimTihyeh actually defend our understanding of the Rambam that a dead person can’t be Mashiach?

    #1653270

    tfaceBURN
    Participant

    I’ve been following this silently the whole time and keeping my thouhts to myself. Someone, I think maybe rso wrote that even though we may kown why Hashem told us to keep the mitzvos we have to do it only because he todl us to.
    I just happned to see a piece of Sefas Emes that mentions something identical about yetzias mitzrayim. Its in parsha boi at the end of 5648, and he says that the possuk says that bnei yisroel did the korbon pesach as Hashem commanded. The Sefas Emes says that even though they knew that their redeption was dependant on the mitzvoh, they did the mitzvoh only to fulfil Hashem’s will, and if they would have done it in order to be redeemed it would not have led to their redemption.

    #1653318

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    tfaceBURN, The explanation might be that the Jews sacrificed the Korban Pesach the lamb which is the constelation of Nisan to show that we are above the determination of the mazel and only believe in Hashem’s hashgacha necessary to accept before the redemption.

    #1653323

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I was not clear. The Korban Pesach was necessary for its own benefit for the belief in the hashgacha of Hashem.

    #1653338

    tfaceBURN
    Participant

    laskern I think youre missing the point. Whatever the reason for bringing the korbon pesach was the Sefas Emes wrote that the reason it led to their redemption was because they brought it only because Hashem said to. Not because it would lead to their redemption.
    So its just like doing mitzvos only because Hashem said. not because it will bring moshiach.
    Have a look at the piece of Sefas Emes I quoted.

    #1653375

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    35 page recap pls

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