The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

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  • #1621103
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The way bring Moshiach is to follow כל ימי חייך להביא לימות המשיח we should be able to bring all our life accomplishments towards the days of Moshiach and not be ashamed with any of our deeds.

    #1621221
    RSo
    Participant

    Neville: “RSo, I’m not sure I agree with all of your last post. Satmars are going to hold their Rebbe to be a tzaddik, Lubavitchers will hold their’s to be a tzaddik; I don’t really think we need to require them to bring proofs from other sources. ”

    I never said they had to bring proofs from other sources to believe. I said they have to bring proofs from other sources to make ME believe.

    #1621222
    RSo
    Participant

    Toi: “BAM! and @rso lays it down”

    Wow! Thanks for the compliment. Err… that was a compliment, wasn’t it?

    #1621225
    RSo
    Participant

    coffee addict: “Why keep giving her a platform to spout nonsense?

    For one it shows people that don’t know that much about chabad how it really is”

    Another reason is to get Lubavichers to understand that the frum world at large does not believe even the basis of what they’re saying, and to leave us alone with their weird proofs. At least, that’s my main reason.

    #1621237
    CS
    Participant

    Coffee addict:

    “And this is the problem

    The Baal hatanya wasn’t greater than anyone in tanach”

    Really? For the sake of a no brainer, I’m sure you hold your Rav to be on a higher level in Avodas Hashem than Achav. (Yes the temptation then was greater but im saying on an Avodas Hashem level.)

    There are many people of all grades in tanach. Nobody is on the same footing as the Avos or Moshe Rabbeinu. We know this because even Dovid Hamelech who wanted to reach the level of the Avos was unable. Moshe rabbeinu the Torah testifies about him.

    Its interesting you mention specifically the Baal HaTanya as he was held to be a higher neshama than even the other Rebbeim – the Baal Shem Tov was excited about his birth as he described him as a neshama chadasha who would accomplish great things.

    In comparison to our other Rebbeim, the Alter Rebbe revealed new G-dly concepts which were never revealed in this world before (obviously all sourced but tremendous giluim) whereas the other Rebbeims maamarim were all based off of those concepts he revealed (the Rebbe may have been an exception but even that is subject to debate and I am not that learned to comment on it). I cannot start grading tzaddikim as I am not a tzadik (or even a beinoni for that matter although I hope to get there someday) and thus cannot look into the heavenly realms for you and tell you who’s who. All I can tell you is what I see on the ground which is of course a very limited vantage point.

    #1621239
    CS
    Participant

    Neville (post 1 for neville)

    “Okay, you may respond on the condition that you either a) apologize to belittling our Rebbeim in a way that isn’t a loaded apology like “I’m sorry you misunderstood what I said,” or b) answer whether or not you believe the Rebbe is moshiach, which is what you’ve been skirting all along.
    Otherwise, the answer is still you; you’re still the one skirting.”

    OK I find this demand ridiculous or should I say unreasonable. I definitely won’t apologise as if I did, I would be admitting that I posted that to belittle Rebbes as you say, and now I am sorry. Since that was not my intention I have no intention of apologising.

    In fact, to give a comparison, if I were to demand an apology from Sam for posting the story by the kiddush above, for daring to belittle the Lubavitcher Rabbi, I’m sure you would be one of the first to quickly point out that that’s ridiculous and in fact, by demanding he apologise for posting his personal experience and personal impression formed thereof, I am in fact admitting that the Rabbi was belittling lubavitch, not sam who is merely repeating what happened.

    My choices would amount to condemning the Rabbi but saying he is a odd case who doesn’t represent the klal, or explaining how sam probably misunderstood him.

    Since no one here is claiming the first, and giving weak explanations of the latter (as I will address), my conclusion is that I was right he isn’t an odd case and youre just demanding an apology because it’s politically incorrect.

    As for b) i don’t see why I should post my own opinion or shitta. If its to assess my credibility, than I can provide Torah Torah sources either way for that debate. In fact b is ridiculous altogether because I already did exactly that on that all too long 19 page thread. If you have anything else to ask our sources to bring that I didn’t address then, you’re welcome to bring them after THIS topic / question is clarified so we can address one question at a time in a mesudar manner.

    #1621240
    CS
    Participant

    Neville (post 2):

    “I can’t speak for everyone, but I personally have not disparaged your Rebbe here. Criticizing things his followers do is not the same thing as criticizing him. His sichos on chumash are not something a random bum off the street could accomplish.”

    Acknowledging this adds to your integrity.

    “We know, by virtue of the fact that you’re a Lubavitcher, that you hold him higher than his contemporaries. If I made an account on a popular Chabad forum for the purpose of “explaining” to everyone how the Litvish gedolim are actually superior and how Chabadniks are actually “misunderstanding” everything we say about them, would you think of me as a good person? Because that’s exactly what you’re doing here.”

    Not at all. Here’s what would be the appropriate analogy:

    Neville chances upon a Chabad forum where users are questioning how litvaks could possibly regard X as a Gadol if he said xyz. Neville sees the chance to clear up possible miseducation and ignorance so he creates an account and offers to answer their questions. As he defends the litvishe positiono, he starts getting attacked that he’s trying to push his gadol on everyone else.

    He then decides to try to connect to these lubavitchers on another less controversial topic (assuming he wouldn’t walk away in disgust at that point and badmouth the I’ll mannered lubavitchers who can’t handle the answers to their own questions.) he starts a thread on the importance of kollel learning. He knows its a big focus in lakewood but doesn’t see many long time kollel learners in lubavitch. He knows they value Torah learning so he thought this would be an interesting topic to have a go at.

    Surprisingly, or maybe not by now, the lubavitchers are extremely suspicious of nevilles ill intentions and insist he answer more questions on his Gedolim. When he answers honestly as they asked,and brings his sources or evidence to back himself up, they complain that he’s disrespectful to lubavitch for daring to hold by his shittos and not apologise for them and they ask the mods to please close his account because he’s engaging in litvish propaganda.

    #1621241
    CS
    Participant

    Neville (post 3):

    “As for this tourist attraction story, you never named the rabbi in the story so how are we supposed to compare him to Rav Shteinman?”

    I don’t know his name, and in any case, seeing that for whatever reason the story was seen in an extremely negative light, I don’t think I’d be able to release it at this point due to lashon hara (just to clarify not motzei Shem ra.)

    ” I have heard personal stories about Rav Shteinman making similar comments to people in order to make them feel more comfortable. In fact, I think I’ve even heard Lubavitchers tell stories about the Rebbe speaking of mundane subjects with followers to show that he can relate to them.”

    Yeah but this is different. I’ll tell you why. The Rebbe for example once asked this American kid with the clipped on yarmulka etc. what he was into, and he said baseball. So then the Rebbe discussed with him the rules of baseball and applied it to the boys upcoming bar mitzvah (how he needs to be a player now with mitzvos not a fan.)

    Here, this was a black hatted Yeshiva bochur who the Rebbe asked about touring for himself. You don’t think he had any common discussion in learning etc they could have connected on? And the bochur didn’t tell him anything about his personal touring interests.

    “The only possible take-away you wanted from that story was to imply that the rabbi was inferior to Lubavitchers. Why do you still think we don’t see through these things? Or, at this point, have you just pulled out the stops and decided to be an all-purpose troll account because you’re angry at
    us?”

    Na neither. My point was two fold. My main point was actually emphasizing what we expect of Rebbes in other kreizin – if the bochur didn’t bat an eyelash, that would show he would think this is normal behaviour for a Rebbe.

    I suppose a secondary side point that emerges from the story is that many Torah leaders on different levels of Avodas Hashem use the title of Rebbe. Like I said I don’t think, based on what I’ve read about Rav Shteinman zatzal, that he would be personally interested in touring. This Rebbe did. So I’m not gonna treat him with the and level of respect as my Rebbe just because they use the same title. Fair?

    #1621242
    CS
    Participant

    Iitft

    “Other Chassidus’ may wish that to be true, may even wish to believe it to be true however they Won’t actually believe it”

    And to me that is just another tribute to our Rebbe. The fact that we actually believe it

    #1621244
    CS
    Participant

    “Nice to say that, but it’s not really fine when I give you the literal translation of the passuk, and you say you interpret it differently as a demand. Isn’t that what xians have done with the whole Torah? Please cite me a source to back it up other than the source I am disputing, which is either you or your rebbe.”

    Hey rso I was happy to leave it at that as I believe I have explained myself adequately, and you seem to have a less pshat understanding of pshat. However since you can’t seem to let it go, I will present it in such a way that the ben chomesh lmikra can understand. I hope that will suffice and if not, than you should explain WHY instead of just repeating that its not what I said, it’s a request.

    OK here is the posuk:
    וַיֹּאמְרוּ הָאֲנָשִׁים הָהֵמָּה אֵלָיו אֲנַחְנוּ טְמֵאִים לְנֶפֶשׁ אָדָם לָמָּה נִגָּרַע לְבִלְתִּי הַקְרִב אֶת קָרְבַּן ה במועדו

    So if we were to understand lama nigara as a request, that would make no sense. Because the answer to “why should we lack (the opportunity) to bring a korban to Hashem in its right time?” Is “because you are tamei and tamei people cannot bring the korban.”

    But wait. Obviously they know that already, in fact, in the very same posuk they say “anachnu tmeim lonefesh.”

    So they werent asking why can’t they as in a request. Because they already answered their own question before they even asked it. So the simple pshat reading of the posuk is that lama nigara isn’t a request as in why not, it is a protest and demand for the right to fulfil it because they don’t want to miss out for doing something good! In that case, Moshe rabbeinu says, let me see whet Hashem says. Hashem also didn’t respond with an explanation as to why they are going to miss out. Rather He gave them a new mitzvah and opportunity so they shouldn’t miss out. I hope this clarifies in case it wasn’t clear enough before.

    #1621278
    CS
    Participant

    Non political

    “1) How do you know”

    Because it has been recorded and documented by Jem who interviewed many people from all walks, who knew the Rebbe / his family in his youth.

    “2) How was he less typical then say the Gaon of Vilna?”

    Judging from what I know of the Gra, I’d say the same.

    “3) Even if he really was super duper not typical why is that relevant? Shabbsai Tzvi wasn’t typical either. In fact not only his knowledge of nigla was impressive but even more so his knowledge of nistar. The way he prayed was said to be especially impressive.”

    Generally, when masses of yidden choose someone to be their Torah leader, they have solid basis. That’s precisely why Shabsai Tzvi was so unusual, because it’s very very rare to get such a large following of Rabbanim and lay people alike if you’re a fraud. Also, how long did this major mistake made with Shabsai Tzvi last for? I don’t mean how long did it take for the last remnant to die out? I mean how long was the majority or at least half of the frum world enamored of him and his following of frum yidden growing instead of shrinking? Was it a year or two? As soon as he broke halacha, the Rabbis unanimously condemned him and he lost his large following aside from a few die hards.

    “This would be a accolade equally applicable to many of the Gedolim of pre war Europe”

    True although even then the Rebbe’s fluency (He gave a gemara shiur by heart as if he was reading from the text) wasnt as typical as it was by say the Alter Rebbe’s times.

    ” until (and including)our current day.”

    Really? I never hear these kind of feats reported on ywn, and for sure not on a common basis.

    Me: “The chassidim got to know the Rebbe and see how he was careful with every detail in halacha as would of course be expected from such a tremendous gaon”

    “Same as above”

    True not disputing that.

    Me: “We have tens of people like this within lubavitch. But we are not overly impressed with them, although we respect them greatly, because we know they are still regular people like me and you, just much farther along avoda wise”

    You: “I don’t agree. I think that If someone is a Talmid Chochom and “farther along avoda wise” that is the very reason to be impressed. The greater they are in Torah and the “farther they are in Avodah” the more impressive they are.”

    Impressed and respect is relative. I gave examples of the respect we pay such Torah/ Avoda leaders. But I wouldn’t run to go on shlichus in some far flung place without questioning how they reached that decision if it’s right for me etc. Whereas with the Rebbe, we would. Also, these Torah leaders we speak to with respect and ask and highly regard their hashkafic advice, and accept their halachic psakim. However I wouldn’t lose my tongue or lose my whole composure or shake uncontrollably etc by such leaders. Whereas someone who can see right to my soul and read my thoughts, that is understandable.

    Me: “And this is the respect I see paid by other chassidim and litvaks to their own Roshei Yeshivos Rabbanim Rebbe’s etc for the most part.”

    You: “In other words all the Gedolim are in the same category as the tens of Talmidei Chachamim in Lubavich who “we respect but are not overly impressed with”. Got it”

    I said for the most part. And yes this is what I see if them on heimishe news sites such as ywn. Lots of photo ops of tishen and weddings, stories about their learning and hashkafic perspectives etc. I don’t see this as a put down. I see this as putting lubavitch on even ground. Maybe this why we have the phenomenon of litvishe bochurim crashing our yeshivos because they think we don’t learn: maybe because they think they have tens of Torah leaders and we have one who isn’t even present physically. So we must be am haaratzim who just farbreng and drink vodka all day, go on mivtzoim and learn only our Rebbes sichos. Im saying this isn’t the case. We have many Torah leaders bh within lubavitch whose geonus can rival their litvishe or chassidishe peers. That should be normal for the Torah world. And yes we think of our Rebbe as above the norm.

    “How do you know if someone is not normal?”
    “Has reached a spiritual height that is out of your league but precisely because of that can help you in ways the “regular” Rabbanim etc can’t? When you see evidence that…they can sense and see things normal people can’t. They can read thoughts and see straight into ones soul. That’s what u mean by that proof.meaning its proof that the Rebbe is beyond our league.”

    “No, even if all of the above would be 100% verifiably true this would prove nothing at all. This is very important. In fact Rav Yaacov Hillel wrote “Faith and Folly” precisely to combat this misconception (among others). He wrote it at the behest of just about all the gedolim Sefardi, Litvish, Chassidish (see haskamos to his sefer).”

    I don’t understand your point here. Please elaborate.

    “Right, we “know who Moshe Rabbeinu was” in this regard because the entire nation stood on Har Sinai and heard Hashem speak to Moshe Rabbeinu. That was a direct national experience, quite possibly the strongest category of evidence there is.”

    Really? I always learned the national revelation to be proof for other people who present their religions as rivals to ours but not to demonstrate who Moshe Rabbeinu was. In fact, they had to follow him through the yam suf which was life threatening in order to get the Torah. If they would only accept Moshe Rabbeinu to be speaking in the name of Hashem after matan Torah, it would have never happened.

    “Get my point?”

    “Unfortunately, I do.”

    Based on your reaction I don’t think you do. To clarify, I’m not saying my Rebbe was the same as Moshe Rabbeinu (although I would say he was the Moshe of this generation – ispashtusa dMoshe bchol dara vdara.) What I am saying is that motives that your would assume for a regular individual do not apply when we’re talking about a tzadik who has no self serving motives. Another example: seeing the Holy Ruzhiner walking about in his golden boots, would you think he was into Gashmius extravagance? I would say no, obviously not because he was a tzadik and for a tzadik such mundane desires aren’t applicable. (Happens to be that there were no soles to the boots precisely so he shouldn’t benefit from them but even if he did have, I wouldn’t think of applying such motives to him.)

    Me : “Basically, when your talking of someone acknowledged by many many Torah leaders, Rabbanim etc. as a Nassi Byisrael or similar terms”

    You : “No such thing. We have addressed that claim in 2 previous threads, no reason to rehash it here.”

    Exactly. If you look it up you will see there were many laudable quotes brought by other tzaddikim and Torah leaders.

    “CS, I want to reiterate that nothing in my post is meant as an attack on you personally. I continue to have the utmost respect for you and appreciate your sincere effort in clarifying your position.”

    Thanks. I see that.

    #1621261
    CS
    Participant

    Rso

    “Did you ever read the accounts given by the only grandchild of the Rayatz on his uncle-in-law’s early life? I don’t expect you to believe them, I don’t believe all of them either, but then again, I also don’t believe most of the wondrous stories about the Lubavicher rebbe.”

    If you give weight to an individual who had a strong agenda against lubavitch and knowing the story of hei teves etc. and cite that as an acceptable source, all that shows is how your bias against lubavitch is negatively affecting your objectivity. (No I haven’t read it nor have I am interest in it)

    “I don’t give much weight to stories that Satmar chassidim tell about their rebbe, and I don’t give much weight to stories litvishe tell about Reb Chaim Kanievsky. I am more likely to believe stories litvishe tell about Satmar and stories Satmar tells about Reb C Kanievsky. All the wondrous stories I hear about your rebbe have lubavich as their source, so I see no reason to give them much weight at all.”

    For me, the fact that the Satmar chassidim regarded their Rebbe Reb Yoel as a tzadik, is good enough reason for me to err on the side of caution and treat him with that level of respect. Even if he argued with my Rebbe, that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a great person or a tzadik. Unless I had valid reason to suspect that the majority of stories said about him were untrue (such as fact checking three of the stories printed by Satmar and finding them to be made up and their attributed authors denying having ever said such a thing or contradicted their own stories or were known as liars etc ) I’ll take their word for it. Yidden are smart people and choose who they choose because they see him as authentic and not a charlatan. As the famous story of the chofetz chaim goes (may I assume you are all familiar?) “Your honour they don’t tell these stories about me or you.”

    I would say this general distrust on your part just implies a level of unhealthy skepticism of others.

    And that was even if all the stories were said by lubavitchers. But there are many many first person video recorded encounters with the Rebbe recorded by Jem said by noon lubavitchers.

    In fact there is a Sefer I heard a previously poilisher chossid was working on, documenting all the Gedolim and Rebbeim who met with the Rebbe, what they had to say about him etc. I can look into the name of it if your really interested.

    #1621265
    CS
    Participant

    Rso
    ” I have a long history of studying and questioning Lubavich, and not getting satisfactory answers to what started out as innocent questions – and I found them unacceptable.”

    I would say that there are likely two reasons for this: 1) you are asking the wrong people. There are many extremely learned people in lubavitch, I can list some or maybe one of the menfolk who I’m sure are following silently along can provide a more extensive list if you are interested.

    There are many regular chassidim who just accept what the Rebbe says as fact (remember you protesting what happened to Emunas chachamim?) and don’t think through logically what the actual question and answer is. The Rebbe bemoaned this by Farbrengens, when he addressed the lack of critical questions following his rashi sichos. But we definitely have many learned people, and also Roshei Yeshivos who were originally not lubavitch so they can appreciate the actual the questions and answers even more.

    2) you have an extremely strong bias which precludes you from actually having a productive, intellectual, source based discussion with them.

    #1621266
    CS
    Participant

    Rso
    “Too much of what he said and did was warped, and nearly 100% of the problems with lubavich – e.g. worst tznius in the chassidic world, most open use of internet, most interaction between genders – can only be attributed to his views, his lack of foresight, and his obsessing over concepts that should not be the primary concerns of bochurim and avreichim in the Torah world.”

    OK here I would say is where you are out of line. The Rebbe had different shitas than the rest of the chassidishe world but it was not sure to lack of foresight etc cvs, just a unique worldview based on Chassidus Chabad.

    I can take one example: your first one. “Worst tznius in Chassidic world.”

    No. Just a different standard. The Rebbe asked us to dress like beis Yaakov. And I would say that the chassidishe women do dress that way. As for others who may not be so frum, ok, you unfortunately find that in every circle. In chasidish circles it is less common to see it in dress, because of the drastic consequences of leaving the community, but it doesn’t solve the issue. It just means more people hide it and live double lives.

    In fact I could definitely argue that because the chassidishe communities have taken tznius to an unprecedented extreme (which I respect as their Daas Torah due to the shocking immodesty prevalent today), they, as an unfortunate side outcome, have much worse tznius issues than we have. But I think I’ll leave it at that unless you want me to hint further.

    “All the same arguments you use to prove that I have to hold of your rebbe could be used by your friends the Litvaks to prove that you have to hold of ALL their gedolim (I especially didn’t mention the name of the person you are allergic to). But they don’t work if you don’t believe in them.”

    Again im just answering questions YOU posed to me, I didn’t start a thread entitled who is gadol hador, and I didn’t even comment on the existing one. That said, I do respect the litvishe world as authentic Yiddishkeit, as well as chassidishe yidden, MO, dati leumi etc. Even if we may differ hashkafa wise. See? I just disagreed with your approach to tznius but I can respect that you are still doing the right thing because that’s what your Rebbe holds.

    #1621283
    Toi
    Participant

    @RSo, yes it was a compliment. I don’t have koichois to articulate every single piece of hashkafic objection that this thread demands, so I sorta jump in once in a while with a prod. Someone on the last page (which I’m obviously to lazy to go back and reference) put it down flawlessly. And I’ll add another, the underlying reason of why CS came here in the first place, all her explanations notwithstanding. It’s the exact same reason chabad saw fit to try and open a chabad house in kiryat sefer, literally the most chareidi derfl on the planet. It was not to be mekarev people, because no one there is frei. It was not to make a minyan, or provide shabbos seudos to weary travellers. It’s because they want to convert you to being chabad, plain and simple. It’s the same reason chabad ‘bochurim’ approach little (chareidi, like very chareidi) kids in the park on shabbos afternoon with the promise of candy, but only after reciting certain peukim. Can you guess which ones? No, miss CS, no one is falling for your chabad game, and all your freudian slips just helped you nail yourself.

    #1621290
    CS
    Participant

    Laskern
    “Chanoch was taken away from this world because he did not want to mix with people. Hashem does not need malochim in this world. We need a yetzer horah who encourages us to do bad but we refuse it and do good.
    It says שחורה אני ונאוה I can be black by doing bad but if I am able to avoid it, I become beautiful. A tzadik is one who has a yetzer horah but it is able to avoid following him.”

    Laskern I am continuously impressed by your knowledge of a wide range of Torah sources. To understand what I am saying correctly I would suggest you check up Tanya, likutei amarim perek 27. You will find there that there are two types of avoda Hashem enjoys: struggling and overcoming our yetzer hara (as you said) AND the avoda of tzaddikim which is to transform the bad altogether from bad to good without grappling with it.

    #1621294
    RSo
    Participant

    Neville: “Also, judging a rabbi by the actions taken by his followers after his death is a dangerous road to go down.”

    Not if you can attribute their current actions to following his shitos, which is precisely the case here.

    Their lack of tzniyus was apparent well before he was niftar, and although it is true that he at one stage said that the girls’ school uniform should be based on the BY uniform, it wasn’t the case even in his lifetime, and he knew and saw it in the many rallies he had with women and girls.

    Open and unfiltered use of the internet even by bochurim: this, I have been told by Lubavichers is because the rebbe believed in using all modern methods to be mekarev Yidden. The results are horrific, and one can almost say רחמנא ליצלן that אין בית אשר אין שם מת.

    Mixing of genders was rife way before 3 Tammuz 5754. I remember being shocked at newly wed couples hosting other newlywed couples in all their “Shabbos finery” (see above re tzniyus).

    One point I forgot to mention is the permissive drunkenness that is looked up to. I don’t know about the others here, but in our chassidic circles when someone becomes drunk he is deemed to have gone way overboard. In Lubavich it is par for the course and even lauded. If you don’t believe me, just attend any Lubavich wedding.

    As to denigrating their rebbe, to which Neville objected on the ground that it is counter-productive, I disagree.

    One of the “tricks” Lubachivers use when speaking to other frum Yidden is, “Everybody agrees that the rebbe was one of the greatest tzaddikim of the generation…” and from there it’s not a great leap to convince everyone that only chabad chassidus is the true derech of the Baal Shem, and that we should all be sending out children to chabad schools etc etc etc.

    Lfan”d it is time that those of us who see through all this come out clearly and tell the truth as we see it.

    #1621300
    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “Its interesting you mention specifically the Baal HaTanya as he was held to be a higher neshama than even the other Rebbeim – the Baal Shem Tov was excited about his birth as he described him as a neshama chadasha who would accomplish great things.”

    And the source for that is… (drumroll)… the story books written by Lubavich, just as they are the source of most of the proofs brought by CS in this and earlier posts. Btw the Memoirs of the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe are considered creative fiction by the rest of the world. And I’m talking about chassidishe Yidden who are meivinim in chassidishe history and chassidic writings.

    #1621304
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “One of the “tricks” Lubachivers use when speaking to other frum Yidden is, “Everybody agrees that the rebbe was one of the greatest tzaddikim of the generation…” and from there it’s not a great leap to convince everyone that only chabad chassidus is the true derech of the Baal Shem, and that we should all be sending out children to chabad schools etc etc etc.”

    True, but their other trick is to dismiss anyone who criticizes the Rebbe as “Anti-Semitic against Chabad.” This lose-lose situation has been pointed out before, but it never makes any difference.

    #1621305
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “t’s the same reason chabad ‘bochurim’ approach little (chareidi, like very chareidi) kids in the park on shabbos afternoon with the promise of candy, but only after reciting certain peukim.”
    This *really*disturbs me, please tell me it isn’t true!

    #1621309
    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “If you give weight to an individual who had a strong agenda against lubavitch and knowing the story of hei teves etc. and cite that as an acceptable source, all that shows is how your bias against lubavitch is negatively affecting your objectivity. (No I haven’t read it nor have I am interest in it)”

    I have to admit that I did not explain myself well in that post. I wasn’t saying that I believe everything your rebbe’s nephew said about your rebbe – I certainly don’t – and I wasn’t clear in that. What I was trying to say is that just as you justifiably wouldn’t believe what he wrote because he had an agenda to discredit your rebbe, I don’t believe what lubavicher chassidim write because they have an agenda to promote their rebbe.

    So I DID go directly to the sources – many times many years ago when he was alive and many times after he was niftar. I read hanochos (transcripts, for the uninitiated) of farbrengens, sichos, letters and lubavich publications such as Kfar Chabad and Beis Mashiach. All of my investigation from primary sources – not the ravings of some crazy who claims the lubavicher rebbe is G-d – led me to become thoroughly disenchanted with your rebbe and his hashkofos.

    His initial work in kiruv was innovative and fantastic, but then it degenerated into self-serving messianism and chauvinism. As an example, I once heard a prominent lubavicher speaking to a lubavicher audience (he probably didn’t realize that I was there as a spy 🙂 ) saying that the rebbe told Rabbi Hecht that the purpose of having the rebbe’s pictures on the side of mitzvah tanks is so that people would know who the Mashiach was. Perhaps the story is untrue. Can you either confirm or deny it?

    And you didn’t address my latest challenge: Based on the rule you brought that “im rishonim …” do lubavichers agree that the Rashba was greater than your rebbe?

    #1621310
    RSo
    Participant

    Neville: “their other trick is to dismiss anyone who criticizes the Rebbe as “Anti-Semitic against Chabad.” This lose-lose situation has been pointed out before, but it never makes any difference.”

    I don’t see it as a lose-lose as long as I am allowed to air my views and opinions in a clear manner, as the mods here have thankfully allowed. It is a lose-lose situation on a predominantly lubavich website, and I have never posted on one of those.

    #1621312
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Really? For the sake of a no brainer, I’m sure you hold your Rav to be on a higher level in Avodas Hashem than Achav. (Yes the temptation then was greater but im saying on an Avodas Hashem level.)

    I was waiting for you to nitpick my words

    Who says I’m talking about avodas hashem?

    You really are comparing apples to oranges. Before you were saying the Baal hatanya was greater than the Avos (who were beinonim) and now you bring Achav?

    (And btw it’s possible that if the Baal hatanya was in achav’s generation he would be worse than Achav)

    #1621320
    CS
    Participant

    “Before you were saying the Baal hatanya was greater than the Avos”

    I said no such thing.

    #1621318
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “they, as an unfortunate side outcome, have much worse tznius issues than we have. But I think I’ll leave it at that unless you want me to hint further.”

    Of course we want you to hint more. If you leave it open-ended like that we’ll assume all kinds of crazy stuff.

    I don’t really want to get into the tznius discussion as I’ve never really seen the problem most people are talking about. Real, frum Lubavitch women seem to keep the same standards as Litvish women. As far as I can tell, the only way people are claiming they’re worse is by including “Modern Lubavitchers” in the calculation. I’ve never found it fair to exclude Ashkenazi MO from the Litvish world, but then include MO Chabad when comparing. I’m sure there’s a name for that logical fallacy in debating, but I can’t think of it.

    I know for a fact that some Chabad schools have maximum sheitel length requirements for the mothers of potential students. They also require strict phone filters. So, parts of their community are trying to combat these issues. The point is not whether or not they are successful, the point is that these problems are not b’shittah. They are most likely an unfortunate side-effect of being a kiruv movement.

    To be clear, though, I’m not backing down from what I said earlier. The other things we discussed are problematic things Chabad believes that are for sure b’shittah.

    #1621358
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No. Just a different standard.

    A lower standard.

    In fact I could definitely argue that because the chassidishe communities have taken tznius to an unprecedented extreme (which I respect as their Daas Torah due to the shocking immodesty prevalent today), they, as an unfortunate side outcome, have much worse tznius issues than we have.

    That’s a baseless, and frankly disgusting comment. Pure motzi Shem ra.

    #1621347
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “You: “In other words all the Gedolim are in the same category as the tens of Talmidei Chachamim in Lubavich who “we respect but are not overly impressed with”. Got it”

    I said for the most part. And yes this is what I see if them on heimishe news sites such as ywn. Lots of photo ops of tishen and weddings, stories about their learning and hashkafic perspectives etc. ”
    how do the mods let this through!?!?!?

    #1621344
    CS
    Participant

    Sam
    “The World is in a State of Geulah” Halvay it was at the end of Golus!”

    Yeah. It’s not a contradiction. See the op.

    “Meanwhile there is fierce fighting in the Gaza area, riots in the West Bank, problems in Europe, fires on the West Coast, not to talk about political problems all over.
    WHERE IS THE GEULAH?”

    Agreed. Let’s daven for it like that.

    “Moshiach will come “b’hesech hadaas”.

    True. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t await him every day as the yud gimmel ikrim state. It means that in spite of awaiting him every day, it will STILL be a shock when it actually happens…

    “Let’s leave Bias Hamoshiach to Hashem,”

    Obviously it’s up to Hashem. But you just said “WHERE IS MOSHIACH?” Both can coexist.

    “and we should concentrate on mizvos uma’asim tovim, ”

    Of course. Best way to hasten the Geula.

    “AND NO MORE MACHLOKES AMONG DIFFERENT GROUPS”

    Sounds good. I suppose you could be helpful with that by not calling kofer on a topic you yourself said you have no clue about. But again, totally agree.

    #1621334
    CS
    Participant

    Np

    “She may also be expressing what she learned in order to hear the responses. Maybe she herself struggles with these issues and it is through such a forum that she can hear other points of view.”

    I came willing to answer questions and also because this forum allows me to engage with a wider variety of yidden. In fact, if I don’t up disillusioned with constant questioning of my integrity, and am able to close off on this thread in a satisfactory manner (all in all its alright), I intend to open a thread on gedolim profiles so i can learn more about contemporary Torah leaders in klal Yisrael today, and not have to wait to get acquainted after they leave us.

    I will admit that the last thread shook me up a bit and I left with some questions to look up. Now I’ve looked them up and more confident than before because the thread gave me the desire to look into certain things stronger than I did before.

    I don’t believe in doing things because everyone does it, or doing things or abiding by shittos I would be embarrassed of if confronted with the facts, even if it may be uncomfortable. Anyhow, that’s my take. Thanks all

    #1621368
    CS
    Participant

    “One of the “tricks” Lubachivers use when speaking to other frum Yidden is, “Everybody agrees that the rebbe was one of the greatest tzaddikim of the generation…” and from there it’s not a great leap to convince everyone that only chabad chassidus is the true derech of the Baal Shem, and that we should all be sending out children to chabad schools etc etc etc.”

    Not true. Everyone should have their own shittos, Rabbanim, schools. In fact, the Rebbe instructed his shluchim to Morocco that when they did establish schools for the locals to save them from the not frum zionist school, they should in no way change the minhagim of the sephardim.

    And when a yid from Montreal came to the Rebbe and complained his chassidim were against him opening a new school in Montreal for a bunch of parents he was representing, but they didn’t want to let him have any say in picking teachers, the Rebbe sided with him and gave him a Bracha to open a new school. We don’t want or need everyone in lubavitch schools and abandoning their own mesora. We respect that there are many legitimate paths to Avodas Hashem.

    #1621372
    CS
    Participant

    DY
    welcome.
    “A lower standard.”

    Not true. Just because we don’t restrict our women to wearing black navy brown or grey doesn’t mean we have a lower standard. Just means they’ve taken it to an extreme which I don’t think is precedented aside from the Rambam time where the Arabs dressed unattractively so the Jewish women had to do likewise to avoid the wrong look in that situation.

    “That’s a baseless, and frankly disgusting comment. Pure motzi Shem ra.”

    Baseless no. I also have friends in willi and other places. Like rso brings out every “secret” about Chabad, secrets don’t stay secrets. But you know what? It could be I shouldn’t have said it. Not because I don’t think it’s true or because it doesnt being out my point, it does quite well- that there are consequences to going to such an extreme. But because why discuss dirt. So I won’t hint further. And I suppose mods can delete that if they wish.

    #1621373
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As far as I can tell, the only way people are claiming they’re worse is by including “Modern Lubavitchers” in the calculation. I’ve never found it fair to exclude Ashkenazi MO from the Litvish world

    There isn’t a clear demarcation between more or less modern yeshivish. Sure, the whole from world suffers from worsening adherence to proper dress and interaction of the genders, but it’s really quite noticeable in Chabad. At least in the tristate area, and I believe elsewhere as well.

    Try to apply the standard to any other chassidus and you’ll see where your complaint about the fallacy of the tznius argument regarding Chabad fails.

    Have you ever seen Belz, Satmar, Get, etc. groups behaving and dressing as you see in Chabad?

    #1621383
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m very disappointed that you’re doubling down on your untrue accusations.

    I also know people in Chassidish communities. And Chabad communities. So what?

    You are denying a Torah truism:

    בכל מקום שאתה מוצא גדר ערוה, שם אתה מוצא קדושה
    (Rashi on parshas Kedoshim).

    #1621407
    CS
    Participant

    Rso
    “And you didn’t address my latest challenge: Based on the rule you brought that “im rishonim …” do lubavichers agree that the Rashba was greater than your rebbe?”

    They were definitely both tzaddikim. More likely the Rashba was greater as he lived in a much earlier generation. I do recall someone of note (don’t remember the name offhand and don’t think it anyhow makes such a difference to you) saying that the Rebbe would have been someone special even with the greats back in the day… So I cannot say for sure. Like I said I’m not able to assess souls so I can’t check it up for you.

    #1621401
    CS
    Participant

    “בכל מקום שאתה מוצא גדר ערוה, שם אתה מוצא קדושה”

    True. And I would add that those who do live by those standards in all areas, are renowned for their children’s more innocence and aidelkeit.

    #1621397
    CS
    Participant

    DY your right. I should not have said that. Neville to Assange your concerns, anything I may have hinted to was only for those who dress all tznius/ full lvush but lead double lives because of communal pressure. Cvs not the real frum ones who are of course yereim ushlemim etc.

    #1621402
    CS
    Participant

    I really do apologise for bringing that in.

    I don’t think wearing coloured clothing is a lower standard of tznius. I think it’s just a safeguard implemented by these communities so they don’t have to be left to discern aidel shades from not Aidel shades. In fact in the Rambam it davka requires the husband to buy his wife colourful clothing.

    #1621444
    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “Neville to Assange your concerns”

    A bit of unexpected and unwitting comedy to lighten the dark winter days and nights! Assange is the guy who is holed-up in the Ecuadorian embassy in London because of wikileaks. I think you mean assuage.

    #1621433
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Try to apply the standard to any other chassidus and you’ll see where your complaint about the fallacy of the tznius argument regarding Chabad fails.

    Have you ever seen Belz, Satmar, Get, etc. groups behaving and dressing as you see in Chabad?”

    For sure the other Chassidim are more tznius. Not even CS denied that. I, however, am not Chassidishe (I thought you weren’t either), so I don’t think it would really be fair to talk about Chabad’s tznius standards when we have the same problem.

    Have you ever seen groups of girls in an “Orthodox” community like Cedarhurst or Riverdale? You would think you were in Las Vegas, and they aren’t Chabadniks. The problem seems much worse in towns that are MO strongholds than in Chabad areas. It’s not uncommon to see girls dressed in a way that are beneath goyish, public school standards (truthfully, I’m not exaggerating). I guess these are all just personal observations.

    #1621435
    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “I can take one example: your first one. “Worst tznius in Chassidic world.”

    No. Just a different standard. The Rebbe asked us to dress like beis Yaakov. And I would say that the chassidishe women do dress that way.”

    Then why do quasi-official chabad websites bemoan the lack of tznius in Crown Heights? The entire chareidi Jewish New York knows that the tznius in Crown Heights is worse than in any other chareidi area.

    Then there are the other two problems that I pointed out that are connected to the tznius issue: unfiltered internet and the mixing of genders. Yes, there are some valiant people who try to fight the prevailing situation within Lubavich in these areas, but they are few and far between. It is a huge problem, and it is undoubtedly caused by “the rebbe wanted us to be open and mix with the outside world”. I think that that was one of his biggest mistakes.

    CS, everybody who has ever discussed this matter with a lubavicher has heard the hints that you make – “You wouldn’t believe some of the disgusting things that go on in Satmar/Pupa/Belz/whatever, but I’d rather not talk about it!” – and some of the stories may be true Rachmana litzlan. There is a yetzer hara everywhere and human beings fall occasionally. But to cite that as an excuse for short skirts etc in Lubavihc all over the world. (I have already written that I have been in chabad houses in five continents and dealt closely with chabad chassidim in many countries.) If the Torah says be tzniusdik then you have to be tzniusdik regardless of what someone else does. Unfortunately, Lubavich worldwide is MUCH worse in this area than all other chareidi groups.

    Furthermore, I believe there is a very simple truth which you are denying. Less tznius and more mixing of genders ALWAYS means more aveiros. If the stories you hint to about other more tzniusdik groups of chassidim are true, then there must be a greater number of similar stories in Lubavich.

    #1621437
    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “So the simple pshat reading of the posuk is that lama nigara isn’t a request as in why not, it is a protest and demand for the right to fulfil it because they don’t want to miss out for doing something good! In that case, Moshe rabbeinu says, let me see whet Hashem says. Hashem also didn’t respond with an explanation as to why they are going to miss out. Rather He gave them a new mitzvah and opportunity so they shouldn’t miss out. I hope this clarifies in case it wasn’t clear enough before.”

    Clearly wrong. There is no interest. A question as to why they should miss out when they were being osek in a mitzvah and became tamei.

    I see that you will not concede this one, and I believe that all the non-lubavich regular poster here agree with me, so I’m willing to let it drop. If I’m wrong about the other posters, will they please let me know.

    Now, you have totally ignored a different question; Do you believe that the Rashba was greater than your rebbe, based on your quote (slightly misquoted but pretty close) about “im rishonim kemalachim…”?

    Please reply.

    #1621443
    Toi
    Participant

    Hi DY, nice to see you.

    Anyone seriously debating whether chabad’s tznius standards are on the level of chassidish/Litvish BY standards is out to lunch.

    warning bells ….”More likely”….as in the Rashba was “more likely” bigger in spiritual stature than the chabadsker rebbe. You can’t make this stuff up.

    It seems this thread has come to a crashing and crushing close. There are no more ambiguities (except for whether CS thinks the rebbe is moshiach), and the lubavitch approach to the rest of us is pretty clear at this point. Also clear, is why they b”H won’t make any headway with the rest of us; when your doctrine hinges on beliefs and klehring whether the avos and Moshe Rabbeinu were beinonim or tzadikim of the Tanya, and comparing them to the rebbe who was ostensibly the only tzaddik of the tanya to have lived since, well, the tanya, you’re not gonna get very far. And thank G-d for that.

    #1621438
    RSo
    Participant

    CS: ““Other Chassidus’ may wish that to be true, may even wish to believe it to be true however they Won’t actually believe it”

    And to me that is just another tribute to our Rebbe. The fact that we actually believe it”

    Wow! That is so childish! Because your level of belief in your rebbe is greater than someone else’s belief in his rebbe it is a tribute to your rebbe?!

    “My tatty is greater than your tatty because I believe my tatty can fly and you don’t believe your tatty can fly!”

    Using your logic, it is a tribute to Oso Ha’ish that his followers think he is the son of G-d c”v.

    What you believe doesn’t about your rebbe doesn’t indicate his level of greatness but it may indicate your level of brainwashing.

    #1621449
    RSo
    Participant

    Sorry, CS, that I reposted my question about the Rashba after you had already addressed it but before it appeared on my screen.

    Here is what you wrote: “They were definitely both tzaddikim. More likely the Rashba was greater as he lived in a much earlier generation.”

    More likely!!! What happened to your quote of “im harishonim…”? Are there exceptions? It seems as if you think there may be. If that’s the case you shouldn’t have quoted it as an inviolable rule.

    #1621465
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I said no such thing.

    Really?

    And? He was holding by the avoda of tzaddikim. He wrote the Tanya, also known as the Sefer shel beinonim, and also wrote a Sefer shel tzaddikim which unfortunately was burnt. Point being he could only write the Sefer if he was holding there…

    Yes so he was a tzadik who stood up to his yetzer hara even in extremely difficult circumstances (beinoni),

    And Avraham didn’t have nisyonos? So that made h a beinoni (according to your definition)

    Is there someone according to your definition of צדיק and if so name one because everyone has נסיונות even משה רבינו

    #1621470
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    CS, It says איזהו גבור הכובש את יצרו you don’t kill the yetzer horah because you lose your purpose to live. You live to improve yourself which requires resistance.

    #1621476
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Unfortunately, Lubavich worldwide is MUCH worse in this area than all other chareidi groups.”

    You aren’t looking at the Chareidi faction of Lubavitch if you’re talking about women wearing miniskirts.

    There are a lot more non-Chassidishe girls out there keeping no standard of tznius whatsoever who are part of the MO community. You’re comparing strictly the Chareidi part of the American Orthodox population to the entire Lubavitch population including MO Lubavitchers. It’s not apples to apples.

    You could say, “well why don’t they make the line more clear where frum ends and MO begins in their community like we do?” But, clearly they are trying. You mentioned the publications criticizing the tznius problem in their neighborhood, and I mentioned the schools enforcing it.

    I don’t know. I think Chabad has enough issues that we don’t need to make up new ones with selective observations.

    #1621478
    Mammele
    Participant

    CS: Sorry but there is no official Chasidic standard of wearing all black or shades thereof for women I’m aware of in the US. Are there Rebbitzins or very Frum families that do so? Likely, but ias a personal/familial chumra, not something requested or expected of the masses. Colors that are not ostentatious are okay, no red, hot pink, neon etc. If you have Chasidish friends out of Crown Heights/ Lubavitch I’m sure you’d know this.

    And as was mentioned before, the Rebbe did push candle lighting for girls that were not Lubavitch. So I ask, if the world needed more kedusha, which IIRC was the reason given for this, why not increase tznius? Which is what most of the Jewish world has tried, but even they are unfortunately not as successful as they should be. Levels of tznius are lower almost everywhere than just a generation ago. (The only extremes I see are in Lev Tahor…). So I really don’t see which circles you are referring to. And if some men are failing, generally speaking it’s on them, so don’t blame the women for their lack of yiras Shamayim.

    What I find interesting in Crown Heights is to see groups of girls with vastly different ways of dress grouped together. While it’s nice to see everyone being accepted, there’s no way this doesn’t adversely affect the “frummer” ones. I realize this may be part and parcel of the Chabad shitta in kiruv, but I don’t know how relatively young girls can withstand these nisyonos.

    #1621499
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    CS, To understand the Baal Hatanya in 27 mentioned above, look at the Sefer Habris by Rabbi Pinchas Eliyahu written in around 1800 who explains that the once yetzer horah’s power is exhausted. in order for tzadikim to advance a new level of neshomo is given to them. There is a total of 25 levels which can be acquired 5 levels within 5 levels.
    נפש, רוח, נשמה, חיה and יחידה such as נפש שבנפש to יחידה שביחידה.

    #1621507
    RSo
    Participant

    Neville, you have a point as I don’t really know how the MO Litvishe girls dress so I shouldn’t have made a blanket statement that seems to include them.

    But in regards to chassidishe girls from chareidi families, there is no question that Lubavich girls dress with the least tznius.

    And to clarify, there are two areas of tznius: one is clothing that covers all areas that need to be closed, and the other is clothing that does not attract overdue attention even when covering those areas. The fact is that unfortunately lubavich is the worst in both those areas.

    Of course there are some very tzniusdik lubavich women, but overall the level of tznius in Crown Heights and in other lubavich enclaves is very depressing.

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