August 11, 2017 12:56 am at 12:56 am #1337356
I just read over your signal response to me
“Criticizing is worse than insulting” ??? Really?unless you mean that in your opinion every criticism contains insults as well,
Where on earth do you get such a hashkafak from??
To insult someone Is akin to murder on some level . to the extent that one loses their share in the world to come.
I never saw such harsh words about unwarranted criticism.
Certainly Not about warranted
Please clarifyAugust 11, 2017 1:18 am at 1:18 am #1337360
CTLAWYER so if someone’s husband would go off, and the mother would hold he was wrong for doing so. Would the judge be allowed to use Judicial Discretion to give the kids to the father because in the Judge’s opinion the mother doesn’t respect others and thats bad chinuch?
I would have imagined that something which is debated in society i.e. there are two clear tzedodim, that the Judge has no right to use their personal opinion to award custody to whichever parent fits with that opinion. Holding of religion is recognised by the goyim as at least a valid tzad, and so is dressing immodestly. That’s why I was surprised at what you wrote. Obviously something which all sensible people agree is wrong the judge can use, but I don’t think all goyim agree that lack of tznius is wrong!August 11, 2017 8:56 am at 8:56 am #1337381
Criticism tuns a lot deeper than insults. Insulting someone is just saying something that clashes with their sensibilities.
Insulting someone is not akin to murder. You’re mixing that up with something else.August 11, 2017 8:59 am at 8:59 am #1337378
I’m glad to see that a secular court still respects a dress code. Gavriel613 – having zero tact or respect for appropriate dress code isn’t “a clear tzad”. Being dressed appropriately for the occasion is not a Jewish concept. This woman was not dressed appropriately for a court of law, and she was thus being directly disrespectful, whether by malice or ignorance, of authority. Not a good role model for a pre-teen. Even some fancy restaurants won’t let you enter in shorts or without a collared shirt.August 11, 2017 9:37 am at 9:37 am #1337411
curiosity, I was talking about the criticism of how the daughter was dressed on city streeets – see both of the comments – I agree the mother should be told off for what she herself was wearing in the courtroomAugust 11, 2017 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1337455
street attire whether appropriate or not, is not proper courtroom attire. the mothers decision to dress the way she did, and to allow her daughter to dress that way too for a court proceeding, is extremely poor judgement, assuming the mother used judgement at all (which if she didnt is even more a reason not to aware custody to her) . on top of all other paperwork and info the judge had about the case, the judge, imo, was well within her rights to to what she did.August 11, 2017 11:08 am at 11:08 am #1337481
I think most would agree that tight clothing is the new “shrink-wrap” style. Nobody is fat shaming anyone, and the areas that are accented have little to do with weight.August 11, 2017 11:36 am at 11:36 am #1337495
Just to beat a dead horse, within the confines of the issur of t’sar baalei chayim , I’ll return to the theme of how often men show up at simchas and civil functions dressed in ill-fitting, frumpy, torn and sometimes dirty/smelly clothes but I don’t hear the cries of “tzinius” that seem to arise almost constantly if c’v a woman’s hem is 7 mm above her knee or if a portion of the arm above the wrist is showing on a very warm day…..you can try and rationalize it by saying its a totally different inyan of “kavod” for the occasion or venue but that’s simply a rationalization…..either be consistent or learn to surpress your sexist view of Tzinius….August 11, 2017 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #1337510
how often men show up at simchas and civil functions dressed in ill-fitting, frumpy, torn and sometimes dirty/smelly clothes
What kind of simchas do you attend?
Stop making up stories to justify your hatred of frum JewsAugust 11, 2017 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #1337515
MODS – I think you need to be very discriminating in what posts of GH you allow thru!! Her small digs at Halacha hidden among comments (sometimes not so well hidden) as if to take a subliminal approach to disparaging the values she doesn’t even seem to understand.
What is your agenda anyway? Makes me wonder, especially after your comments yesterday.
To equate a hem that goes ABOVE the knee with a sleeve that is above the WRIST (on a hot day of course, to emphasis you’re thinking it’s a restrictive, suffocating aspect of Halacha) cannot be written off as ignorance. And to say 7mm hoping to imply that if it’s just a teeny, tiny bit outside of the realm of Halacha and someone insists it is wrong than perhaps that someone is just being…..oh, I don’t know, maybe restrictive and dictatorial? interesting views you have on Halacha. Unfortunately you seem to be preying on readers who are looking for just such an ‘out’.
Please mods….August 11, 2017 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #1337516
GadolHadorah, both mean and women who wear dishonorable clothing are not treating themselves with kavod. However, there’s no comparison between frumpy, ill-fitting clothes on a man and clothing that does not adhere to tzniyus standards on women. To pretend otherwise is just dishonest.
What’s happening today, especially regarding women’s dress, started as a “Naval Bir’shus Ha’Torah” approach. Yes, technically the right areas are covered, but the material and tightness are not in the spirit of the law. As my Rov said many years ago, there is less of a problem with a woman wearing loose sweatpants than a short skirt. Unfortunately, as R Ephraim Wachsman mentioned in his Erev Yom Kippur speech several years ago, the skirts have gotten shorter as well.
With regard to men, there is no consensus on what men are required to cover up. They should be dressed respectably, especially if they are a Talmid Chochom, as they represent the Torah. However, their lack of tzniyus does not have a deleterious effect on others. That’s not sexist, it’s just nature.August 11, 2017 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #1337524
Ever heard of malbin pnay chaveyro barabim ayn lo. Chelek liolam haba?
Mutav sheyapil Adam atzmo likivshan haesh vial yalbin pnay chaveyro barabim?
Diazal sumka viasi chivra (since The blood drains from his face it’s asking to killing him) (rishonim on the gemorah)
That is where I am coming from (remember your comments were in the context of this taking place in public)
Where are you coming from?
As to kollelman comment
I did not want to go there but I think it is quite obvious that there are many times when the female in question has not gained even an ounce in quite some time vihamayvin yavin
It’s time to stop making excuses for people who openly flout halacha
The halacha of Dan likaf zechus has guidelines. Did you know that when it comes to an average person doing something clearly wrong according to some rishonim YOU ARE MECHUYAV to Dan likaf chov? Look in the chafetz Chaim in the pesicha “essin number 3” and follow the footnotesAugust 11, 2017 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1337534
Dear gadol hadorah, you are completely mixing up three different issues: Issur ervah, kavod hatorah, and the mitzvah of tzniyus. I would humbly suggest that, more importantly than learning the differences between the three issues, you should “man-up” and come face-to-face with the root causes that drive your continuous passive-aggressive bashing of halacha and frum males on a website catered for the people which you so clearly despise.August 11, 2017 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1337537
Klugeryid, you are mistranslating.
EditedAugust 11, 2017 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1337592
GH and RY: This is not the first time that you have given your nonsensical opinion about “scooping bagels”. You don’t like doing it, don’t. Don’t use words like assur or mutar on something so mundane.August 11, 2017 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #1337613
However, their (men’s) lack of tzniyus does not have a deleterious effect on others. That’s not sexist, it’s just nature.
I would respectfully disagree that the lack of tzinius by men if they act inappropriately or if their l’vush draws attention to themselves, DOES have a deleterious effect on others, aside from the obvious inyan of kavod for a talmid chacham etc. I suspect your view of “nature” in one-directionalAugust 11, 2017 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1337626
Gadolhadorah – men drawing attention to themselves or even acting inappropriately does not cause others to sin. I don’t have to get more explicit. I’m not blaming or shaming women, but there is a reason why we have tznius rules for women that have clearly defined boundaries.
You’re comparing 2 completely different things. Women wearing old, tattered clothes and acting inappropriately would fall under the same category as men doing the same. This still has nothing to do with wearing short skirts or tight clothes. They may be colloquially called “tzniyus”, but are very different. Embarrassing someone publicly is akin to murder, but is very different than pulling a trigger and shooting someone. Your argument is trying to make these 2 equal, when they are clearly not.August 11, 2017 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1337631
Iacisrmma, only I mentioned bagel scooping, and only as a nod to the other thread. And this time I did not say it was assur.August 11, 2017 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1337633
Kollelman, I also don’t want to get to explicit, but mens’ actions can and do cause others to sin.August 11, 2017 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #1337648
I saw now that GH mentioned bagel scooping and also stated the obvious. But the rest still stands.
I apologize for the inaccuracy in my post.August 11, 2017 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1337662
Avram in MDParticipant
Ugh, I’m having a hard time living up to the expectations of the frum haters. I can’t both wear old, tattered, misfitting clothing, and sport a gaudy suit while parking my Lexus to pay for groceries with by EBT card at the same time.August 11, 2017 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1337686
Yeah you can. Spend $5,000 on a suit that doesn’t fit and use it for yard work.August 13, 2017 2:44 am at 2:44 am #1337800
I agree with Syag.August 13, 2017 8:20 am at 8:20 am #1337811
I forgot the (T) on this one.August 13, 2017 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #1338030
“men drawing attention to themselves or even acting inappropriately does not cause others to sin. ”
This is false. There is a multimillion dollar industry that exists that proves this wrong.
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