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Are there communities where it is untznius to have exposed toes or feet?
…Btw may I please request a Tznius section? How do I categorize this?
Thank you
The leg from below the knee only has to be covered if it’s “minhag Hamakom” (the custom of the place). There may be different ways of understanding minhag hamakom and when it would apply in this case, so this is a question that you definitely need to ask a Rabbi.
If you were asking a clear-cut black-and-white question about hilchos tznius, I could answer it, but that is not the case with this question.
If you were just asking if such communities exist, they definitely do. I think all Yeshivish/Chareidi communities are like that.
Yes. Not only that but when the head of a certain Modern Orthodox American seminary in Israel (I don’t know if MO is the right word – what I mean is that most of the girls came from MO backgrounds, and the school itself was not Chareidi/Yeshivish)had her son ask Rav Shlom Zalman Auerbach, zatsal, if they should make the girls wear socks, his response was, “All b’nos Yisrael wear socks”.
I was very surprised since I always understood it to be a minhag hamakom issue (as per the Mishna Brurah), and since these girls were from MO backgrounds, I wouldn’t have thought they would be required to wear socks according to Halacha.
I have heard other things that seem to indicate that the Gedolim feel strongly about socks and may not differentiate based on the background the girl is coming from. But I don’t know. That’s why I said you should ask a Rabbi if you want to know what you should do.
It would seem to me that if you are struggling with tznius, you should start with things that are clear-cut halacha, but again, I’m not a Rabbi.
Are you referring to sandals or open toe shoes. With socks/stockings or without? In SOME chareidi communities might consider it untzinus.
Without socks, I think all chareidi communities would consider it untznius. I suppose depending how you define chareidi, you may be able to find some community in the US that calls itself chareidi where it’s acceptable to not wear socks but I think it’s pretty unusual.
You should wear knee socks or tights when visiting any Chareidi community in EY.
“I am planning on wearing tights and having my feet totally covered. Just makes me nervous thinking about what if it’s not enough?”
Why in the world wouldn’t that be enough?
Wearing sneakers is not a problem (I did it before I had a chance to buy new shoes :)). But why would you have to?
If you meant open-toed shoes with tights, it’s fine.
This is our experience in More charedi neighborhoods
Unless you are REALLY Untzniut (Meaning something like shorts and Tank Tops or something along those lines) they generally know who is charedi and who isnt , and if you arent charedi, they dont really bother you
In Eretz Yisrael, it’ considered appropriate to wear socks in a Chareidi neighborhood.
In both countries, it’s unlikely that anyone will bother you (well, except for the fact that will always be people who will bother you wherever you are. I had a lady come over to me at the Tachana Merkazit and yell at me for not having my hair in a pony tail. I guess she didn’t notice all the people around who were a lot less tznius than me.) but that’s not really the issue. It’s a question of what’s appropriate.
It is generally considered appropriate to wear socks in a Chareidi neighborhood in Israel or the US and there may be a minhag hamakom issue involved. Certainly, in Geula/Meah Shearim, even most not-Frum girls are makpid to wear socks.
It’s cold and rainy, why would anyone even consider not wearing socks? Bring out the boots!!
LU, your tachana merkazit story reminds me of one that happened to a friend- she was davening at the kosel when a lady comes over to her and gives her a mussar shmuz about how it is not proper for her to wear a sheitle (peah nochris, there are many who hold that it is assur to wear a sheitle, but rather women should cover their hair with a scarf/hat/turban etc). My friend was single at the time with thick, a bit-past-the-chin-length hair.
I agree with ZD and you should be OK. Once one of my nephews went to a shul in Canada in sandals without socks (it’s not only females who are criticized)and I explained, he was from Israel where it’s normal to dress that way.
LU
Obviously I dont know who you are, but I am fairly certain you are charedi and look the part. The women who came up to you in the bus station to admonish you for not braiding your hair, probably thought you were charedi and in her camp
I really doubt she would have said anything to you if she thought you were chiloni or Dati Leumi
If I were Dati Leumi, I wouldn’t look any different than I do now.
When I first came to EY, I didn’t know what these things meant. I was here for many years before I decided that I’m Chareidi. I could have just as easily decided that I was Dati Leumi (as many of my friends did), and it wouldn’t have changed the way I look. I have friends who decided to be Chareidi and friends who decided to be Dati Leumi, and it didn’t change the way that anyone looks.
The look is differnt. Most Dati Leumi women wear sandals (As do the men)
Also the blouses are differnt and for the men, its very differnt. Most Dati Leumi dont seem to wear suits (Unlike the US, but MO men rarely wear hats)
I cant say about Litvish, but also chassidic seem to walk differently (At least in the US)
Its easier to tell what camp someone is in, than you think
That’s more by Israelis. Not by Americans. Even by Israelis, they don’t all wear sandals. I was on my way to a Chasuna, so I wouldn’t have been wearing sandals in any case (part of the reason I wasn’t wearing a pony tail).
The Chardal (Chareidi Dati Leumi) usually wear socks, but it is true that you can still usually tell the difference. They usually wear tichels, not sheitels, and different style clothes. Extremely tznius usually.
Funny story LU, but I have to agree with ZD (fancy that ZD!).
The lady who told you off probably did so because here she sees this aidel maidel with her hair down!!! Which to her is totally not tzanua. So she brings it to your attention. Of course many of us ladies, especially in chu”l, think it’s ok for a single girl to wear her hair down, so I’m not looking to suggest you change your hairstyle. Just mentioning it because a similar thing happened to me in the USA- A very Chassidish looking lady approached me on the street and pointed out the lack of tznius in something I was wearing. She was very polite and soft-spoken; there was no thought that a rock or paint were going to land on me or my clothing. I thanked her and was actually flattered that she considered my general appearance indicative of the fact that I belonged in the category of people who would want to be told such a thing. Happens to be I hadn’t noticed, and was glad she pointed it out.
Not the same to be yelled at in the tachana merkazit. But that’s pretty much par for the course in the tachana merkazit, whether someone thinks you’re getting on the bus too slowly or whether they don’t like how you’re dressed. See my comment on Sephard / Ashkenaz divide in
Israel thread….
WTP It’s cold and rainy, why would anyone even consider not wearing socks? Bring out the boots!!
If it’s so cold in Isreal why are they making a stink about enforcement of a dress code in the Knesset? Why are they wearing mini skirts if it’s against the rules and cold?
LU, your tachana merkazit story reminds me of one that happened to a friend- she was davening at the kosel when a lady comes over to her and gives her a mussar shmuz about how it is not proper for her to wear a sheitle (peah nochris, there are many who hold that it is assur to wear a sheitle, but rather women should cover their hair with a scarf/hat/turban etc). My friend was single at the time with thick, a bit-past-the-chin-length hair.
She should have told her she is single and maybe she knows a nice boy for her.
Abba_S- I don’t think the Knesset rules were put in for halachic tznius reasons, but to make it a bit more professional-feeling year round. I don’t think you would see tank tops and really short miniskirts or t-shirts with slogans on capitol hill, even in warm weather. The Knesset is probably not the only place that could use a bit more professional attire.
ZD -I actually do agree with you (and Golfer). I was just being nit-picky about the details. But you do have a good point. And you’re right Golfer – I suppose I should look at it as a compliment – I never thought of it that way before!
LB, it’s totally fine to wear tennis shoes or any other kinds of shoes (open-toed, sling-backs, slits on the side, shoe-boots, you name it) with tights/thigh-highs/socks, as long as it is visible that you are wearing something to cover the leg that is exposed past your skirt. Nobody really cares. Many, many chareidi women wear tennis/athletic shoes, often for reasons of having suffered from varicose veins during multiple pregnancies and they need the support for their legs/feet, etc, whatever the reason. It can be just your style and you like that kind of shoe. Go for it.
I do want to point out something I see in this thread and was also mentioned in another thread. There is what is called a pony tail (known in EY as a koo-koo) and there is a braid (called a tzamah). Most Bais Yaakov girls wear their hair in a pony tail and that is totally tznius. All of the hair (except for some bangs if you like) is collected into a holder off the face. The braid (sometime 2) is worn more by the Yerushalmi/chassidish girls.
I am not sure where it says that you have to have your hair in a braid, I do recall this being mentioned in different thread but I do not have time to go reference it, but I hesitate to say that the large majority of chareidi girls are going around not tznius because their hair is merely in a pony tail and not in a braid.
Open hair is considered prost (I believe that is the word) and I personally consider long-haired shaitels in this category as well (nobody else in the entire world has to agree with me).
As a guy, I’m not really knowledgeable on the subject, but I’ve always thought tznius is more about the inside than the outside. Obviously, keeping to the halachic standards outlined in the Mishnah Berurah and other places is a necessity that cannot be bargained with, but I think people miss the other side of it. I believe it to be more about how the person (I say person because on a certain level it applies to men also, but that’s a different conversation) conducts themselves in general and acts with an internalization that she is a Bas Yisrael and behaves to such a standard, than whether the her nail polish is black, pink, or non-existent or whether her hair is in a braid, ponytail or let down, etc. and I think that’s a mindset that’s lost to today’s detail oriented, permissible/non-permissible world of tznius.
Tznius is not more detailed than it used to be. I have been out of school for many years, but my impression is that today there is a strong emphasis on teaching about the concept of tznius and the “inside” aspect.
The reason for the seeming focus on details is twofold, in my opinion:
1. There are halachos that are not being followed. People should look at the halacha to cover your knees the same way that they look at the halacha not to turn on a light on Shabbos. It should not be considered normal for someone to consider herself Frum and to keep all other halachos but be walking around in skirts that are clearly above her knees.
You can’t expect everyone to be on the level of being able to have the highest level of “inside tznius”. That’s a level to strive for.It’s like expecting everyone to have complete kavana when they daven. But you can and should expect everyone to follow the basic clear-cut halachos of tznius.
Just like by davening, the ikar is really the kavana, but we teach everyone to at least say the words, hoping the kavana will come. And by fast days, where the real point is the teshuva and it is brought down that one is missing the point if he fasts but doesn’t do teshuva, and yet, we still tell everyone to at least fast and we hope the teshuva will come. But we don’t tell people to stop fasting until they have the proper mindset.
Perhaps it’s true that with tznius the main thing is the internal aspect, but you still have to keep the external laws. Not only that, but you can’t get to the internal concept of tznius until you are dressed tzniusly. You can’t be tznius on the inside if you are not tznius on the outside. On the other hand, being tznius on the outside can bring a person to be tznius on the inside. In fact, I disagree that tznius has become a totally external thing. It is impossible for a person to be tznius on the outside without its affecting her internal sense of tznius.
I have heard people say that others relate to them differently and that they feel differently about themselves when they are dressed tzniusly. If I’m not mistaken, I think you wrote something to that effect, LB.
Also, LB, I wanted to point out something. You seem to have this idea that people are much more tznius today than they used to be. That is far from the truth. The levels of tznius have gone way down over the years. If our greatgrandmothers were to see how people dress today, they would be horrified!
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