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If the Rambam goes to the extent of saying that Hammechabbek ‘achat min ha’arayot she’ein libbo shella’adam nokefo ‘aleihen, ‘o shennishak ‘achat –mehen-kegon ‘achoto haggedolah, va’achot ‘immo, vechaiyotze –bahen-‘af ‘al pi she’ein sham ta’avah velo hana’ah kelal, harei zeh megunneh beyoter. vedavar zeh ‘asur hu, uma’aseh tippeshim –hu-she’ein kerevin le’ervah kelal, bein gedolah bein ketannah chutz meha’em livnah, veha’av levitto, how much more would it be distasteful and assur to have negiah with a niece. (Issurei Biah 21:6)
In all fairness, you are equating touching (and in this case as it relates to a three yr old niece, say a playful toss in the air) to chibuk and nishuk. Perhaps the poskim dont make the comparison you just made.
apushatayid,
Well, perhaps the poskim DO make that comparison.
The chibuk venishuk thing is by a sister, with whom technically the regular issur should not apply. There is no hirhur issue with a sister. And still, the poskim say that any affectionate touch falls into that prohibition.
But by a niece, where there is hihur, she is like any strange girl. Halacha does not differentiate between her and any other girl.
This is serious stuff. Speak to a reliable Rov. Don’t pasken from a coffee room!
Rebdonial above quotes the Rambam (the sholchon aruch says the same wording)
I understand that you would have no issue with touching (not chibuk or nishuk) the older sister or the aunt. can you define keyotsah bahen. I was taught that means a niece. (similar relation as an aunt) from that Rambam a niece can be (technically) touched. not to say it’s a smart thing. (I like my arms 😉 )
or possibly you don’t understand the difference between chibuk and nishuk and negiah
Every 16 yr old girl you(and I) know is a nida, so bringing a proof from how we view things is a bit tough.
Dovid hamelech was gozer on Yichud with a penuyah. You tell me, hwas there any gezera ever about touching a penuya.
The torah discusses an issur of kereiva to arayos. Who extended it to non arayos(16 yr old non nidas and 3 yr old girls)?
There is a concept of not coming close to an aveira (asu seyag latorah) so lewd speech or behavior might get included as a seyag to
Lo tihyeh kadeish, but that would hardly be relevent to giving a 3 yr old niece a kiss or a pat on the back(whereas it might be relevent to your 16 yr old unmarried neighbor who you know goes to the mikva)RH: Why should it be different between an 8 year old and a 16 year old (who went to the mikva)? Are you suggesting that it is okay for anyone to touch the 16 year old girl?It could be the rambam thought it was gross to hug and kiss an erva. Who says he thought it was gross to kiss a 6 year old niece?
Note, the rambam doesnt say it is gross to kiss a sister, just an adult one. Maybe he things its gross to kiss an adult you cant marry. Maybe its ok to kiss a child(also maybe its a different kind of kissing than an adult)
If the Rambam goes to the extent of saying that Hammechabbek 'achat min ha'arayot she'ein libbo shella'adam nokefo 'aleihen, 'o shennishak 'achat --mehen-kegon 'achoto haggedolah, va'achot 'immo, vechaiyotze --bahen-'af 'al pi she'ein sham ta'avah velo hana'ah kelal, harei zeh megunneh beyoter. vedavar zeh 'asur hu, uma'aseh tippeshim --hu-she'ein kerevin le'ervah kelal, bein gedolah bein ketannah chutz meha'em livnah, veha'av levitto, how much more would it be distasteful and assur to have negiah with a niece. (Issurei Biah 21:6)Maybe, but still, es past nisht. When I have kids, I wouldn’t want them to be touched too much by aunts or uncles.
16 yr olds dont go to the mikve. If they do we can discuss it then.
There is a special gezeira to make yichud with a penuya tehorah forbiden(Dovid hamelech was gozer). Was there a similar gezera on negiah??
Even if there was, was it on negia with a little girl or with a mature woman(12+)?
I’m not saying there isnt, but is there one?
RH: Why should it be different between an 8 year old and a 16 year old (who went to the mikva)? Are you suggesting that it is okay for anyone to touch the 16 year old girl?Same here. The police dont look at it too kindly either. However, it may or may not be a religious issue…
Maybe, but still, es past nisht. When I have kids, I wouldn't want them to be touched too much by aunts or uncles.RH: Suppose a 16 year old did go. Do you dispute that she is still forbidden to be touched by anyone?
It is totally irresponsible to use this type of a forum for psak halocha – and you all know that.
. Your 16 year old daughter or 16 year old grandaughter is also a niddah
“Well, perhaps the poskim DO make that comparison.”
Perhaps they do. Why speculate. Ask a posek.
The shulchan aruch (well at least the gemorah and im sure its in the siman about yichud in EH~22)says you cant have yichud with her anyway. As for touching, I would tend to assume that its not appropriate, though I am subject to the same biases that you are. However do you have a source that anyone says its a problem? Its definitely NOT lo sikrevu. The structure of most of these prohibitions is Los Sikrevu.
RH: Suppose a 16 year old did go. Do you dispute that she is still forbidden to be touched by anyone?The psaq here should be that one should avoid any negiah with a niece of nephew of the opposite gender. Even if something may be ok mikar hadin, it’s still “es past nisht.”
I imagine you wouldnt say the following-“The pesak should be its assur to learn in kollel if you need to be supported. Even if its muttal meikar hadin(Rav Moshe says if its the only way that its ok-as i recall), “Es pas nisht””
We dont just make up issurim because you decide its pass nisht
The psaq here should be that one should avoid any negiah with a niece of nephew of the opposite gender. Even if something may be ok mikar hadin, it's still "es past nisht."Tznius, according to many Talmudic definitions, is defined by notions of habituation and social context more than any concrete shiurim or anything like that. There is also the need to set gedarim/building a syag around areas like this.
RH: The Shulchan Aruch states, l’halacha, to -quote- “stay far far away from women.”
True. But the nosei kalim dont seem to apply that to 3 year old girls(who are yelados, not nashim, but whatever). I just checked.
if you read the rest of the seif, he goes on to discuss all the things that are assur with arayos. presumably he was just introducing the discussion about arayos.
RH: The Shulchan Aruch states, l'halacha, to -quote- "stay far far away from women."Reb Doniel, are you saying that in a place where it is normal that it is ok to do what some people here would say is not tzneus?
Also, Do I know you?
Rav HaMachshir,
What agency do you work with? And if the mods can put us in touch, maybe we can see. If not, I am always interested in meeting new people, especially people in klei kodesh.
Tznius dress is Talmudically conceived of as a function of geography, in many instances. For instance, in Boro Park, a woman probably shouldn’t go with bare feet, while in other communities, this would be mutar.
It’s time to close one down.
I dont work for any agency. I have a friend on here with several aliases. You started to sound like him so I was curious. he knows my code name, and apparently isnt you.
Nice meeting you thought.
Rav HaMachshir,
What agency do you work with? And if the mods can put us in touch, maybe we can see. If not, I am always interested in meeting new people, especially people in klei kodesh.
Tznius dress is Talmudically conceived of as a function of geography, in many instances. For instance, in Boro Park, a woman probably shouldn't go with bare feet, while in other communities, this would be mutar.The only issur relating to negiah with a penuyah tohorah is the potential hirhurim which would be a violation of Lo Sosuru. Where there is no Chashash Hirhur, which I hope would be the case with respect to a 3 year-old niece, there is no issur.
The only possible issue is the Rambam’s declaration that hugging and kissing an Aunt is disgusting. Whether that would apply to young child is unclear, it would depend on the reason the Rambam held it was megunah.
for the people discussing the age there is a story were Rav Yaakov Yitzchok Ruderman was playing with a little girl he was told the little girl was 4 years old and he put her down. meaning that if a girl is four its already assur to touch her makin it obvious then that 16 is also assur
Shailos U’tshuvos Avnei Yoshfeh Chelek 2 Siman 89 quotes R SZ as niece assur after age 3 to hug. (Elsewhere he says that contact for practical purposes such as helping to cross the street may have a very different psak)
Dear Lander,
A lot of this thread is a confusion between the two. What about hugging a scared four year old?
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