July 16, 2018 9:40 am at 9:40 am #1558373
I’m going to start with a disclaimer: I DO NOT condone the actions of these children or any others who engage in similar actions.
That said, what legal right does Hatzolah have to confiscate private property from them. Hatzolah is not a law enforcement agency. I would imagine that even a law enforcement officer wouldn’t be able to just confiscate the radio on the spot unless the child is witnessed broadcasting over Hatzolah, or another agency’s frequency.
Any of the CR legal experts care to provide clarity.July 16, 2018 10:18 am at 10:18 am #1558504
Avram in MDParticipant
“what legal right does Hatzolah have to confiscate private property from them”
The article did not state that Hatzolah confiscated the radios. I assume it was the parents, and they definitely have the right. Note the appeal from the Hatzola Catskills coordinator:
“We are pleading with parents to confiscate ALL radios with Hatzolah frequencies from children, and imploring parents not to buy these devices for them. This is Pikuach Nefashos, and this will not be tolerated whatsoever”, a Catskills Hatzalah Coordinator told YWN.”July 16, 2018 11:15 am at 11:15 am #1558518
I asked those questions in my comment on the news article.
Hatzolah has no legal authority to confiscate the radios.
Even law enforcement cannot just confiscate the radios. The radios are legal, it is transmission that may not be legal. A warrant would have to be issued by a judge for [proper seizure of private property and it might not hold up in court,
It is legal to own a car. It is not legal to drive the car on a public road at 140 MPH in the USA . That illegal use of a legal product does not mean law enforcement can just confiscate the car.July 16, 2018 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #1558533
bk613 -“That said, what legal right does Hatzolah have to confiscate private property from them. ”
I’m not going to get into right or wrong, but in Lakewood Hatzolah – if they catch a kid broadcasting on their frequency – they confiscate the radios.July 16, 2018 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #1558534
CTL, the FCC when enforcing illegal radio interference is authorized under federal law to confiscate the offending transceivers on the spot.July 16, 2018 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #1558536
Change the term from illegal use of to reckless use that endangers the life of private citizens, does it change what law enforcement or even a private citizen may do?July 16, 2018 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #1558543
CTL: if there is danger to life, and laws to back it up, such as drunk driving, cars are confiscated by the police prior to trial.
Additionally, I don’t think these Walkie Talkies were FCC certified, which makes them illegal to own.
From the FCC’s website: “CB equipment used in the United States must be FCC-certified and labeled as such by the manufacturer.”
Hatzolah probably got the parents to confiscate it for them, and if the parents weren’t agreeable, they could have threatened legal action. Just my 2 cents, I don’t know how it went down.July 16, 2018 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #1558544
Joseph-The FCC is the agency that enforces these rules and understand that they may have the legal ability to confiscate. That doesn’t change the fact that Hatzoloh, a a private entity, does not. tHE ARTICLE STATES “They were interfering with Hatzolah for the past two weeks in the Woodridge area, until they were tracked down by Hatzolah members. They immediately had their radios confiscated.” The way it is written, it seems that the Hatzoloh members who “tracked them down” confiscated them.July 16, 2018 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #1558558
I would submit that if the Hatzalah members came upon the yinglach engaged in radio transmissions that were disrupting emergency communications, they should have confiscated the radios on the spot. No court would have found them to have violated any laws. At a minimum, they should have confiscated the radios and given them to the parents with a warning about the ramifications and possible criminal liability. I’ve assumed everyone would know about the risks and FCC rules but maybe not.
More generally, I’m worried about how the growth in certain technologies, whether these cheap radios or drone aircraft, in the hands of kids or irresponsible adults, poses increased threats to public safety and how the laws have lagged behind the growth of such technologies.July 16, 2018 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #1558562
In most jurisdictions, the police cannot confiscate a car because it was driven by a drunk driver. They can arrange for revocation of a drivers licence by DMV.
When a car is used for delivery of drugs, it may be forfeited by order of the judge at trial.
There is a HUGE difference between a piece of property being impounded pending trail and actual confiscation which changes ownership.
Chances are the car driven by the drunk driver may have been impounded pending trail, not confiscated.
The legal meaning of words is often quite different than the way they are used in news articles.July 16, 2018 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1558601
Why are people caring about the legal aspect of Hatzalah to confiscate (if they did) the radios?
When push comes to shove these kids were endangering the lives of people. Imagine if chas vshalom something happened to a person because of these kids, and after Hatzalah confiscates the radios? Would people also say “how dare Hatzalah do that,” or would everyone suddenly understand?
Another scenario, Hatzalah files a lawsuit against these kids, again people would have nasty things to say.
Hatzalah is trying to prevent something from happening, please everyone just understand that. Sometimes logic comes first, and Hatzalah is taking the logical steps.
If these kids (and everyone here who believes Hatzalah did the wrong/illegal thing) want to file a lawsuit or call the cops on those who confiscated the radios, go right ahead. I don’t think you’ll get to far.July 16, 2018 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1558589
If it is true (as claimed in the story) that the use of these radios was endangering lives, then we good Jews who follow what is right according to the Torah need no sanction from secular law to confiscate them.
If someone is drowning, and for some reason the only way I can save them is by stealing your car and driving it off a cliff, I am required to do so. (It is possible I would have to compensate you afterward, although I seem to remember that in some cases even this Is not necessary, perhaps there is a machlokes about this.)July 16, 2018 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1558632
@ctlawyer – Like most attorneys, is an ignoramus. Clearly, you don’t know the FCC laws and the legality of confiscating a radio that is 100% without question interfering with life saving. I am a Hatzolah member, and I heard this going on (I am in the Woodridge area), and you are a fool for even questioning the legality of what was done. You are a royal tipish.
Do you have a child?
Let’s say you DO. You’re child gets into a swimming pool chas vesholom. Hatzolah is called. The first member arrives and is screaming for a chopper forthwith, or giving “seconds-matter” live updates to the responding medics, and your OTHER stupid son is playing with a radio he bought in a store, and has Hatzolah frequency and is preventing the members on the scene from saving your OTHER son’s life.
You are a FOOL.
PS: The children were also interfering with the Fallsburg Police radio system, Sullivan County Sheriff, NY State Police and the Sullivan County FD. They are all well aware that these radios were confiscated.
Only a slip-and-fall idiot attorney can play games on a story like this. get a life.July 16, 2018 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1558641
In classic ywn fashion, the point of the story is completely lost.July 16, 2018 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1558648
You slammed ctlawyer and called him some pretty nasty things yet
you did not give a single legal reason why it would be legal for them to confiscate the radios. Rather you gave numerous moral/logical reason why they should (all of which I happen to agree with) The fact that you are a hatzolah member doesn’t make u an expert or knowlegable of the law.July 16, 2018 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1558649
Which end of the horse are you?
Such Lashon Hora, during the 9 days noch.
My questions only have to do with American civil law, not religious (halacha) law.
#1 There are NO FCC laws. The only Federal laws are those passed by Congress. The FCC, in its authority granted by Congress and the Executive Branch may promulgate regulations and may even have the authority to levy fines through administrative law. That does not mean they can ignore constitutional due process rights.
Every American has the right, if not obligation to question government actions, especially in this time of the Trump administration who ignores laws and judicial decisions. How’s that 20 day order to reunite families doing? I questioned who confiscated the radios. I also questioned if in fact it was a confiscation, where title changes hands or an impound pending trial and adjudication.
You immediately commit libel against most attorneys.
I am not a slip and fall attorney and have never been…I don’t practice Personal Injury law and never have.
If you have read my posts, you would know I have children and grandchildren and DON’T live in an area where Hatzoloh operates and would respond to any need.
I did not play any games, I asked serious legal questions, that’s what intelligent people do. I NEVER said Hatzoloh confiscated radios, I asked who did.
An apology is in order, not top just myself, but most of my profession.
You come across as a boor.July 16, 2018 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1558755
Apy – YES!!! That was exactly what went through my mind when the stupid thread got posted. 👏July 16, 2018 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1558887
You hit the needle on the head!
Exactly what I was going to write!July 16, 2018 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1559106
@ctlawyer – I will not apologize. Clearly you are clueless.
The FCC makes raids and confiscates equipment all day long. Go open a pirated radio station and start broadcasting. They will come down, and confiscate your transmitter. Do it again, and get a hefty fine.
Lives are being played with, and this tipish is busy with a constitution.July 16, 2018 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1559102
While these children should not be allowed to play with radios unless they know what they’re doing, it is clear that radio communication is too vulnerable to be considered safe for emergency medical organizations.July 16, 2018 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1559198
CTlawyer, why must you introduce your anti-Trump bias into your answers? He has obeyed judicial decisions, e BBC en the dubious decrees of the judge in Hawaii. As an attorney, you know that separating children from parents who have been arrested is standard practice as you don’t want the child in jail. As opposed to breaking the law, Trump was obeying the law! Apparently, you had no objections when Obama did it. In fact, when the media rushed to show a picture of a child in a cage, they found out, to their embarrassment, that the picture was from 2014 ( Obama ) not 2018.July 16, 2018 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1559203
So, we have 2 kids, likely not the only 2, who either have nothing else to do (or are not allowed to do anything else) but listen to the hatzalah frequency, and as an added bonus they believe it is “fun” to respond to the dispatcher using the identification of known members. Hatzalah issues a “warning” that this type of “entertainment” is dangerous, and the ONLY thing fit to discuss is who gave anyone the “right” to confiscate the radios?
Lets expand the discussion.
. dont these “kids” have ANYTHING better to do with their time? why not?
. if they are “kids”, who is supervising them and how they are spending their time?
. why did it take TWO WEEKS for hatzalah to issue a warning about something so dangerous (article said it has been going on for 2 weeks”)
. why is the headline “story” about 2 kids who were caught, the headlline 2 weeks ago should have been, these radios are dangerous, dont abuse them, or give them to kids who cant make proper decisions regarding their use.July 16, 2018 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1559225
@apushatayid – Another genius…..
Because Hatzolah DID warn people MANY TIMES> And spent THOUSANDS is promoting these flyers warning people.
A simple Google search found this https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/316364/emergency-message-from-hatzolah-regarding-children-with-radios-interfering-with-hatzolah-emergency-radio-transmissions.htmlJuly 16, 2018 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1559230
Ctrl Alt DelParticipant
Just a generalization here…….FCC fines are usually monetarily hefty, and some offenses may even come with jail time. I would imagine, that while LEGALLY a non-LEO or FCC official cannot confiscate even a $30 Chinese radio (which at this point are generally all FCC type certified) , I would imagine that the alternative of having the perpetrators (and parents) info forwarded to the FCC for a formal complaint with the resultant fines assessed is a far worse choice. IMHO I would offer the kids/parents the choice: voluntarily give the radios to Hatzolah and/or destroy them, or face the formal complaint and resultant fines. Just as a quick example (without getting too technical) a simple setting on these radios colloquially called “narrowbanding” that is set improperly can incur a $10,000 fine PER OCCURRENCE. IE: for each time the PTT button is pressed. The FCC doesn’t fool around. look at their enforcements page. Hopefully this whole publicized incident will deter others from interfering with Hatzolahs activities.July 16, 2018 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1559241
Ferd that story you linked to is from 3 years agoJuly 16, 2018 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1559243
unfortunately, i inadvertantly garbled some words. I meant to say Trump obeyed the court order of the Hawaiian judge regarding the travel ban.
If the parents dont want to be separated from their children, don’t break the law by entering illegally. It’s that simpleJuly 16, 2018 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1559256
If you must get your kids a radio, get a scanner, not an unlocked transceiver. FCC approved FRS radios are also okay if the kids are old enough.July 16, 2018 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1559286
I was thinking the same thing. These kids obviously need to have the radios taken away from them, and then legal action taken against the parents if they continue to enable this life-threatening behavior. HOWEVER, Hatzalah, by taking the radios themselves (if they actually did) is opening themselves up to lawsuits and possible criminal charges for theft etc. Regardless of how right you are, you can’t just go around doing whatever you feel like.July 16, 2018 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1559285
Tomorrow your gonna have a group of chevra from lakewood confiscating smart pho es. Their legal excuse? Hatzolas neshomos. Just wait, it already happened in EY last year.July 16, 2018 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1559302
Were these radios actually illegal? or were they legal and just kids acting stupidly?July 16, 2018 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1559307
Don’t transmit on any frequency except those that are specifically allowed.July 17, 2018 10:14 am at 10:14 am #1559477
@Ferd. to paraphrase someone else, you truly are talking out of the wrong end. So, THREE years ago Hatzalah of BP issued such a warning, yippeee!!!!. I’m IN woodridge during the summer. Have not heard a SINGLE word about anyone interfering with hatzalah frequencies. Not even a sign hanging in shul. Granted, I dont daven in every shul in woodridge and perhaps a simple measure like that was taken in SOME shuls, considering it is such a “vital” concern, why is the story of a confiscated radio on YWN and a WARNING anytime in the last 2 weeks, not? Sounds to me, like someone is interested in “hock”, nothing more, nothing less. YWN is great manure spreader.July 17, 2018 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #1559628
CTLawyer -“If you have read my posts, you would know I have children and grandchildren and DON’T live in an area where Hatzoloh operates and would respond to any need.”
Lucky you! I do live in an area where they have Hatzola and I do my best Not to use their service.July 17, 2018 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #1559633
I’m still foggy on one point: were these frum kids? If their parents are frum, that puts the responsibility squarely within the community. The parents can be warned, even threatened with cherem, if they don’t get rid of the radios and control their kids. The issue falls under bais din, and it can do what it considers necessary, unless the parents appeal to civil court, especially since it’s a matter of saving lives.
And for Heaven’s sake, let’s remember it’s the Nine Days.July 17, 2018 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #1559640
Of particular significance, the news reporter says “Police say the radios were taken away from the kids and later returned to their parents”.July 17, 2018 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1559677
IDK why the first part of my post never made it here. I found a news report from Lakewood in October 2013 that warned about kids playing with these radios. The picture here on YWN of the radios is the same one used in that article. The title was “Kids on 2-Way Radios Interfere With Emergency Calls”.
So it is not a new problem that Hatzolah has to start telling the world about.July 17, 2018 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1559700
In my opinion this entire conversation is uninteligent
1) if someone can get a $30 radio that interferes eith hatzala then they MUST get a new way of comunicating ASAP as not only little “yingalach” can get them and anybody looking to make issues for the yiden in the catskills can
2) airwaves are a open entity and even if there are 100s of regulations it will not help
3) confiscating will not solve the issue and only bring more lnowledge to any child who is looking for “fun”
4) unlike what people wrote here there is no designated channel for ems channel are grouped by use ie. 118-135 mhz is aircraft 88-108 is fm radio and so on so hatzala does not own the frequency but has a licence to operate on it (if i get a ham license i can operate on that frequency as well
The only way to solve this issue is by getting more advanced comms such as scramblers or encrypted communicators
And as for the legalities of the confiscation its definitely not legal but probably halachakly requiredJuly 17, 2018 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1560713
Calling an entire conversation unintelligent can make you a lot of enemies in one go.July 18, 2018 8:33 am at 8:33 am #1560738
Seems you are offering two options
1) spends tens/hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) on a complete communications overhaul
2) educate the parents to exert parental control on a simple matter (not giving your children broadcast radios)
Considering we only hear about this on occasion I’m going to call option (2) the more logical decisionJuly 18, 2018 8:33 am at 8:33 am #1560737
To get completely off topic: but since you mentioned it.
I googled “Ways Obama violated the law” and came up with numerous articles
Ignoring non mainstream articles
There are articles in the Washington Post (pretty liberal by most standards) saying “we are in an era of unprecedented presidential over reach”
And Forbes “top 10 ways Obama violated the constitution in 2013”
I’m willing to bet the side by side comparison will have Obama winning this not trump as you would have us believeJuly 18, 2018 10:06 am at 10:06 am #1560751
Trump isn’t done yet.July 18, 2018 10:06 am at 10:06 am #1560752
I don’t think these radios were broadcast radios. And if this is what little children who mean no harm can do to emergency services, what could someone do with malicious intent? If your only security measure is to tell people not to buy radio transceivers for their children, you’re using the honor system. And I’m not convinced the honor system works.July 18, 2018 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1560875
Rebyidd23 thats exactly my point
And mentcsh1 read rebyidd23 while option 2 may seem cheaper it is not logical since it is not addressing the problem and is just kicking the can down the roadJuly 18, 2018 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1560878
And mentsch1 i did not give 2 options please highlight where i mentioned option 2
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