Tznius gone too far

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  • #890325

    Curiosity
    Participant

    The Torah says don’t stray right or left. There is such a thing as going overboard in fumkite where the gemara states, “are the Torah’s own restrictions not enough for you that you need to create more?” Unfortunately we see it with people spitting on little girls whose clothes are the “wrong color”, and throwing rocks at cars on Shabbos. They think they’re being frum when in reality they are off the derech. Yes, the derech can be strayed off to the left AND to the right. Being off the derech doesn’t just start at rock throwing though, and we need gedolim to tell us what is the derech and what is not. Burqas are NOT the derech for our day and age, just like taking multiple wives is not the derech, and just like wearing tfillin all day is not the derech.

    #890326

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Shopping613 I agree with YehudaYona about words on clothing. Showing off is also a lack of tznius (not to mention arrogance) and brandishing an expensive or chashuv “name brand” when there are similar clothes without labels imprinted on them is showing off your money, your stature, your lavish sense of “style”. Not tznius.

    #890327

    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I am refraining from commenting on whether or not it is my business how others dress but I will throw out there that it does make it harder for me to enforce proper dress for my own kids when the people around them are not dressed per halacha. (The same goes, of course, for any public behavior.)

    I work hard to teach my children what their halachik obligations are, and I try very hard to be respectful toward the people in their lives. Sometimes I have no choice but to tell them (when they ask) that a person is doing something that is not appropriate (I am NOT talking about hashgafik differences) but it gives me a chance to teach them the difference between respecting people and respecting their behaviors. Regardless of what they do, they have an obligation to respect all Yidden. That does not change the fact, however, that what they see their peers do affects what they long/ask for.

    And yes, we try to practice what we preach and will not defend our own behavior when it falls short.

    #890328

    Whiteberry
    Member

    There is no such thing as “overboard” as it relates to yoursef. Imposing those rules on others though is another story.

    Publications often try to appeal to the broadest possible base, so their adherence to a stringent viewpoint should be seen as nothing more than a marketing tool.

    Where I would like to see people go overboard is in there adherence to the laws of lashon hara and rechilus.

    #890329

    choppy
    Participant

    Sam said “So too, taking any concept too far can have terrible, terrible consequences.” I take Sam to mean that taking rechilus and lashon hara too far is no good either. Sam will explain why in a follwup comment.

    #890330

    Sam2
    Participant

    Whiteberry: Once again, that would be terrible. Businesses would be ruined and scam artists and abusers would run amok. There is a reason why talking about people is sometimes allowed. It would be nice if no one said any Asser Lashon Harah, but “going overboard” and being “Fummer than G-d” is not a good idea.

    #890331

    R.T.
    Participant

    “…spitting on little girls whose clothes are the “wrong color”, and throwing rocks at cars on Shabbos. They think they’re being frum when…”

    I agree wholeheartedly. That to me is disgraceful behaviour.

    “…and just like wearing tfillin all day is not the derech.”

    Now, there is a world of difference between personal practices and practices that imposes on others.

    If someone wants to wear Tefillin all day, a Bracha on him. That used to be our practice. Are you going to suggest the Gr”a was off the Derech? Believe me, most people in his day only wore Tefillin in the morning/Shachris. Is carrying around a Gemara all day off the Derech?

    #890332

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Whiteberry: People can go overboard with lashon hara and rechilus as well. There are halachos about when one is required to say things, such as pertaining to a shidduch or some other cases. Some people try to be “machmir” in such cases, which is wrong.

    Those people, like many when it comes to tznius, fall into the category of chossid shoteh.

    #890333

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Shopping613: I actually agree with one of those. I’m a guy and I refuse to wear tshirts with large company logos. It’s just crass.

    choppy: What if they are keeping halacha. Do we have to convert them to your religion too?

    #890334

    Sam2
    Participant

    Choppy: Well, it seems like I had that explained before your post even showed up. Do you disagree with me about how that can have terrible consequences as well?

    #890335

    choppy
    Participant

    Itch: We don’t proselytize goyim to become Jewish. And a goy cannot keep halacha. (If you keep Shabbos you are chayiv misa.)

    Sam: I disagree with your characterizing it as “taking loshon hora too far.” What you are describing isn’t loshon hora altogether.

    #890336

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    And a goy cannot keep halacha.

    Sure he can. Or do you think the billions of non-Jews who haven’t killed someone have done something wrong?

    (And before you point out that non-Jews are also commanded not to kill…)

    Do you think that the many non-Jews who don’t plow with a horse and donkey together are doing something wrong?

    The Wolf

    #890337

    Sam2
    Participant

    Choppy: That’s precisely my point. When you take Kashrus too far, it’s not Kashrus anymore. When you take Shabbos too far, it’s not Shabbos anymore. Just like when you take Lashon Hara too far, you’re not even within the parameters of Lashon Hara anymore. Halachah gives us parameters. And some Shittos are more Meikil and some are more Machmir. In some concepts, we look for the Mekilin. In some, we look for the Machmirim. In most, normative Halachah is somewhere in the middle. But when you completely leave the parameters then you are not even in the Parsha of that Halachah anymore. So yes, it’s possible too go overboard on any concept, either so far Lekula that you are no longer within the parameters of the Halachah or so far L’chumra.

    #890338

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    We’re talking about Judaism. I’m asking if you want Jews who keep halacha to convert to whatever it is you practice. I’m not sure what it’s called.

    #890339

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t see anything too far about this.

    #890340

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Tznius “too far” is not Tznius at all, as it draws attention to the women who has gone “too far” and whose message is: Hey everyone, look at me; see how beautifully frum I am (and you’re not)!

    #890341

    oomis
    Participant

    “Tznius “too far” is not Tznius at all, as it draws attention to the women who has gone “too far” and whose message is: Hey everyone, look at me; see how beautifully frum I am (and you’re not)! “

    Cherrybim – ICAM. The way some people ostensibly dress for tznius, CALLS attention to them, inappropriately. Just the opposite of what the spirit of Tznius requires.

    #890342

    oomis
    Participant

    And a goy cannot keep halacha.” Wrong. He cannot keep SHABBOS. I never understood why, though, as Adam Harishon I presume was expected to keep Shabbos. The world was created for the Torah, and Shabbos is certainly a BIG mainstay of that.

    #890343

    oomis
    Participant

    It seems you are trying to use Litzonus to be Docheh the Mussar. Perhaps you are refering to paintings that you’ve seen. I’m sure those paintings are just from that period of time. If you go back in time even further -I’m sure all dress, even not in Kings’ courtyards was very Tzinus. “

    You are mistaken. And the paintings I have seen, are paintings of the times. We know from seeing period costumes that women of note throughout the Middle Ages through the 19th Centrury, dressed with lowcut necklines. it was the fashion, especially of the wealthy, AND of the members of Court. The ONE and only point I was making was that you cannot use the “dress in front o0f the king” argument, because often throughout history, that mode of dress would eb considered inappropriate by our standards of tznius, yet be considered wholly proper in front of the king of that time. Look at how women dress for the Inaugural Balls today. that is OUR “King’s Court,” and yoI highly doubt you’d want you daughter dressed like that.

    #890344

    Whiteberry
    Member

    My comment about appealing to the broadest base was in reference to tznius.

    My comment about lashon hara, was as it relates to forums such as this.

    I really should stop assuming everyone knows exactly what I am talking about and start to be more clear. Maybe that is where I will go too far.

    #890345

    oomis
    Participant

    Sorry about the typos – I am outta control today!

    #890346

    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    oomis – I’m feeling the same way, must be the weather (?)

    #890347

    Health
    Participant

    OOmis -“You are mistaken. And the paintings I have seen, are paintings of the times. We know from seeing period costumes that women of note throughout the Middle Ages through the 19th Centrury, dressed with lowcut necklines. it was the fashion, especially of the wealthy, AND of the members of Court. The ONE and only point I was making was that you cannot use the “dress in front o0f the king” argument, because often throughout history, that mode of dress would eb considered inappropriate by our standards of tznius, yet be considered wholly proper in front of the king of that time. Look at how women dress for the Inaugural Balls today. that is OUR “King’s Court,” and yoI highly doubt you’d want you daughter dressed like that.”

    Instead of conciding that you were wrong – you just say you looked at costumes and they weren’t Tznius. My point though was you were talking about a period of time. Just because some time period dress wasn’t Tznius -you might have to go back further. So your objection to my statement is just a Letzonus.

    And a Frum Woman/girl should dress like a princess. Obviously, I’m not talking about the period in time when princesses didn’t dress acc. to Tznius!

    #890348

    tahini
    Member

    A jewish girl should dress like a nice modest jewish girl, forget the princess tag!!!

    Princesses all over the world were and are famous for wearing fashionable and revealing clothes, from today’s celebrity royals to many past royals in courts all over Europe. OOmis is quite right about wealthy and aristocratic women being figures of immodest fashion and allurement, they did not wear practical clothes to wear in the field or about the home, but clothes of status and privilege designed to highlight their bodies and give prestige to their men. These values are not ours!! Paintings, diaries and court accounts from many different periods all lavishly detail this, if you are not sure find portraits of Renaissance, Reformation, 17th, 18th, 19th as well as 20th and 21st century royalty. History and History of Art are my passion as well as profession, so believe me when it is always so funny to hear people talk of tzniut girls dressing like royalty!

    Girls should indeed be encouraged to be modest, and to take pride and pleasure in their appearance, but to associate high class status from the gentile world with our moral stance is to create confusion and misunderstanding.

    #890349

    TheMusicMan
    Participant

    For heaven’s sake! How many threads can we possibly have that argue on the same subjects?

    There should be a separate forum: the YWN Tzniyus Room! Find something else to waste time on in futile arguments! I have yet to see a single poster argue with someone and then agree with their opinion after a lengthily debate, anyway.

    #890350

    Health
    Participant

    Techina -“Girls should indeed be encouraged to be modest, and to take pride and pleasure in their appearance, but to associate high class status from the gentile world with our moral stance is to create confusion and misunderstanding.”

    Who was talking about a Goyish Princess? Jewish Girls are Hashem’s princesses and should dress appropiately.

    #890351

    oomis
    Participant

    I’m with Tahini.

    #1257810

    zaltzvasser
    Participant

    bump! 馃檪

    #1257961

    simcha613
    Participant

    I haven’t read every post here… I read the first post and it seems like there is a dispite on whether taking “tznius too far” is a bad thing, good thing, neutral but if the tzibur wants it then who has any right to complain… something along those lines.

    I don’t want to comment on the specific case in the OP, but theoretically, in a very similar case but it was a picture of a 4 year old boy in camp wearing shorts that was blurred out in the name of tznius, would people have the same reaction? I mean, if the tzibur felt that a young boy’s legs should not be shown in a public magazine, would this be an appropriate expression of tznius?

    IMHO, people can do what they want. If there is a consensus (but I mean a real consensus, not social peer pressure), to blur out pictures of boys and girls who’s pants or skirts are “too short” that’s fine. But I think it’s hard to call blurring a picture of a little boy for wearing shorts “tznius,” “halacha” or a “chumra”. So too, just because people want certain pictures blurred out of a magazine, and they have every right to do so… that doesn’t automatically make it an expression of tznius, halacha, or a chumra.

    #1258000

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I once worked for a certain organization and someone called up really upset because there was a picture of a 7 year old girl shown in their brochure. When I told a friend about it, she made some comment about how some people have nothing better to do with their lives than complain about silly things.

    I feel the same way about this issue. If someone feels that 7 year old girls shouldn’t be shown in brochures, then he shouldn’t do so, but it seems to me like a funny thing to complain about.

    Likewise, if someone feels that four year old girls’ pictures shouldn’t be blurred out, then don’t do it, but it’s not something to complain about!

    A little tolerance! In both directions!

    #1258170

    mw13
    Participant

    LU, +1

    On the subject of burquas, I’m always blown away at the vehemence of the anti-burqua movement. To refer to these people as “the Taliban” is now quite commonplace, and I’ve heard some other vicious insults directed their way. Seriously, why do people hate this so much? What could possibly be so offensive about people taking this upon themselves as a chumra in tzniyus?

    I have yet to hear a rational argument as to why it would be a problem to wear a burqua, just a lot of “content-free outrage”.

    Personally, I’m secure enough in my own Judaism that I’m not perturbed if somebody is doing something “frummer” than I am.

    #1258286

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I was under the impression (although I could be wrong) that the reasons why people come out so strongly against burquas, as well as the reasons why they are different than the example given in the op are as follows:

    1. I think that many Gedolim may have come out against it.

    2. It is something that is done publicly, and VERY publicly at that, since you can’t really avoid seeing it.

    3. I think they are trying to convince others to do the same.

    4. I think that many feel that it is actually very untznius.

    5. Many feel that it is coming from unhealthy attitudes towards tznius.

    6. There is a real danger that many people might copy them and develop and spread these unhealthy attitudes if the Gedolim and the oilam do not come out against it. I can really see this because I know that when I read articles about it, I do notice myself being drawn to it on some emotional level.
    This does not happen when I read about pictures of 4 year olds being blurred. This is one of the reasons why I think it’s coming from something unhealthy, because you do not usually feel yourself being “emotional drawn” to tznius. I think it comes from the fact that the Burqa wearers quoted in the articles I read had a very cultish mentality that came through in the articles.

    #1258320

    Joseph
    Participant

    There are Sefardic halacha seforim from Sefardic poskim of previous generations ruling that women in their communities are obligated to cover their head, hair and part of their face.

    #1258361

    chulin
    Participant

    All over boro park there are large posters proclaiming rabbis have forbidden women from walking outdoors in ‘robes’. Those long one piece dresses that every chasidish women wears outside. Was good forever and suddenly isn’t good anymore. Who are these people, who are they to decide for the rest of us, and who is paying for all those posters?

    #1258364

    mw13
    Participant

    LU:
    With all due respect, I think you’ve exemplified the unconvincing arguments used against burquas. What’s wrong with something being “done publicly”? The same could be said about (depending on the community) tights, tichels, or even full-lentgh sleeves. Should all of those also be opposed?

    It happens to be true that many of the burqua-wearing women belong to cult-like movements. But that really has nothing to do with whether actually wearing a burqua is good or bad.

    #1258370

    mw13
    Participant

    How’s this for a mekor for wearing a burqua?

    讜址讬执旨专职讗侄讛指 讬职讛讜旨讚指讛 讜址讬址旨讞职砖职讈讘侄讛指 诇职讝讜止谞指讛 讻执旨讬 讻执住职旨转指讛 驻指旨谞侄讬讛指 – 讘专讗砖讬转 诇讞, 讟讜

    住讜讟讛 讚祝 讬’ 注诪讜讚 讗’ – 诪砖讜诐 讚讻住转讛 驻谞讬讛 讞砖讘讛 诇讝讜谞讛? 讗”专 讗诇注讝专, 砖讻住转讛 驻谞讬讛 讘讘讬转 讞诪讬讛, 讚讗”专 砖诪讜讗诇 讘专 谞讞诪谞讬 讗”专 讬讜讞谞谉 讻诇 讻诇讛 砖讛讬讗 爪谞讜注讛 讘讘讬转 讞诪讬讛 讝讜讻讛 讜讬讜爪讗讬谉 诪诪谞讛 诪诇讻讬诐 讜谞讘讬讗讬诐

    We see that the fact the Tamar covered her face is considered praiseworthy by Chazal.

    #1258369

    Chaver
    Participant

    Answer to LU
    1. Just because you think Gedolim assur it does not make it bad
    2. If there is nothing wrong with it then it is okay to do publicly, just because it is done in such a fashion doesn’t make it wrong
    3. Convincing others to do what you feel is right is complimentary.
    4. Our feelings are not a factor when it comes to Halacha [I’m not saying that Burkas are what the Torah wants but our feelings still don’t make it right or wrong]
    5. Who cares why they do it. Live and let live
    6. If people copy them it would probably be better then the way some dress.

    #1258374

    Chortkov
    Participant

    It stems from an unhealthy approach to tznius; perhaps from an attitude which completely misses the point of tznius.

    Having said that, I also don’t understand the animosity and hostility directed to Burqa wearers. People treat it like a cardinal sin, when to my eyes, it’s not that bad. To me, the reaction is totally exaggerated.

    My limited view notwithstanding, the Gedolim have (apparently) come out against it.

    #1258384

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    MW13 & Chaver: I was contrasting it with the example given in the op and explaining why the two cases are different and therefore it is legitimate for someone to relate to both cases differently.

    “My limited view notwithstanding, the Gedolim have (apparently) come out against it.”

    That is really the bottom-line and the reason why the two are different. That is to say if it is correct that the Gedolim are against it. If they aren’t, then perhaps the two cases are not different.

    ” Just because you think Gedolim assur it does not make it bad”

    Say what? If your meaning is that if I think the Gedolim assur it but I am wrong (and they don’t in fact assur it), then it’s not bad, then you are right, of course. I thought that was clear from the way I phrased things. And I really hope that’s what you meant.

    #1258385

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Regardless of whether or not the Gedolim are against it, I do agree that it is not a good middah to discuss it and criticize it when it’s not necessary. In general, one should always be “dan l’kaf zchus” and try to see the positive in others, and I am impressed at the way that posters are trying to view the burqa wearers positively (as long as it’s not coming from a disregard for the views of Gedolei Yisrael).

    Truthfully, I wasn’t so comfortable writing my above posts since I don’t like to say anything negative about others when it’s not necessary, and who am I to decide if they are doing something problematic?

    Even if the Gedolim are against it, it doesn’t mean it is my place to write public posts against it. I did it however for only one reason, and that was to simply as a defense of those who felt that one should not criticize the people from the example in the op because it’s inconsistent with coming out against burqas. So I wanted to point out why the two cases are different, and the fact that it may be okay to come out against one does not mean that it’s okay to come out against the other.

    But truthfully we shouldn’t be attacking either one. Even if there is a time and place for it, this is certainly NOT the correct forum for doing so, imho. Thank you to those of you who wrote posts in their defense.

    #1258386

    mw13
    Participant

    Which Gedolim have come out against burquas?

    #1258409

    Joseph
    Participant

    The gedolim have not come out against it. Some sporadic rabbis may have individually spoken against it, but not The Gedolim.

    #1258420

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    It is interesting that many people, inc. CR posters, get a lot more offended by the burka ladies than by people who keep extremely low standards of tznius, or dress in a very immodest fashion. Perhaps it’s a sign of the times that people who are ‘too modest’ are worse than those who are blatantly immodest.

    That’s not to say there’s nothing to be said about the burka ladies, especially since the practices of the movement in general is often extremely questionable. But let’s put this matter in perspective. Immodesty is many degrees worse, but how often do you hear people get truly, really offended by it?

    #1258418

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    MW – I wrote “think” for a reason. I do not know for sure that the Gedolim are against it.

    There was an article in one of the magazines (Mishpacha or Binah) a few years ago, and I think it quoted some Gedolim on the topic, if you have a way to get ahold of the article.

    #1258440

    mw13
    Participant

    Correction to <ahref=http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/tznius-gone-too-far/#post-1258370>this comment: 住讜讟讛 讚祝 讬 讗诪讜讚 讘, not 讗诪讜讚 讗

    #1258445

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    NetiquamErro – I get very offended by that. But I am trying to work on some level of tolerance in that area too. While it is important to be upset about a lack of tznius, it is important to be tolerant of the provocateurs, and in any case it’s not healthy or productive to constantly be in a state of distress about anything, no matter how important.

    I try to remind myself that they may not know better, or that perhaps they have worked hard on their tznius and that is why they are not dressed worse, or that there are bigger aveiros that do more harm such as loshon hora, and sinas chinam.

    #1258476

    Chortkov
    Participant

    I see Sam2 awaiting moderation.

    Is he going to call burqas Darkei Emori or Chukas HaGoy? I wonder.

    EDIT: His post was approved after mine. I was wrong.

    #1258475

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Correction to <ahref=http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/tznius-gone-too-far/#post-1258370>this comment: 住讜讟讛 讚祝 讬 讗诪讜讚 讘, not 讗诪讜讚 讗

    You must leave a space between the “a” and “href”.

    #1258470

    Sam2
    Participant

    mw13: “Personally, I鈥檓 secure enough in my own Judaism that I鈥檓 not perturbed if somebody is doing something 鈥渇rummer鈥 than I am.”

    Would you think it’s a good thing to be “secure enough in your own Judaism” to not be perturbed if somebody is doing something “less frum” than you? What’s the difference?

    #1258508

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Would you think it鈥檚 a good thing to be 鈥渟ecure enough in your own Judaism鈥 to not be perturbed if somebody is doing something 鈥渓ess frum鈥 than you? What鈥檚 the difference?”

    If “less frum” means that they are doing something against the Torah, then you should be bothered by it. Otherwise, you shouldn’t.

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