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Pashuteh Yid,
The research is all done. You can read in in V’Yoel Moshe.
It will be quite illuminating. I’ve heard sworn zionists who actually dared to read the Sefer come away quite nispoel.
Joseph, I respect every view and hence, I will answer you with civility,although I vehemently disagree with you.
First, I DID read (learn?) Vajoel Moshe and I was not so nispoel…Yes, the satmarer Rebbe was a tremendous talmid chochom but his arguments are mostly fallacious.So, you are entitled to your view and , in your case, make sure that when the bombs start falling on Meah Shearim ,chas veshalom, they run out with buckets of water to douse the flames.
Secondly, obviously, my very explicit demonstration of sources has left you without any response, so you have to shift the argument to something totally different, which has no bearing on the matter.
Thirdly, the Rambam does not say that “ezras yisroel miyad tzar shebo aleihim” only applies to eretz yisroel, but to ANY place where jews are in danger. so, your reasoning is fallacious as well.
000646 – On the topic of the whole killing scenario, I’m with you on this one. Men appear to have a higher tolerance for emotional pain (or sensitivities), but if they don’t, then they do a great job of hiding it and keeping their feelings inside. Women (most) on the other hand, are less capable of keeping them bottled up.
Joseph, I had to add this comment to our discussions. I had thought that we were “over’ the hateful exchanges about Eretz Yisroel and Zionism. For you to write that ‘service in their name, in any manner, is illegitimate(and dare I say, heresy)” is truly despicable. You do realize that there are millions of Jews, of which hundreds of thousands of chareidim, that rely for their safety and security on those who protect them? For you to intimate that this is “heresy” (a real stupid statement) and that it is “illegitimate” to defend Jews is, dare I say, indefensible.
Berlin, You keep repeating yourself on this matter, but the reality doesn’t change.
An example that comes immediately to mind, there is a find individual by the name of Gil Student (you may have heard off him) that is a through and through Zionist, as through as they come. He actually thinks he disproved the Satmar Rebbe’s take on Zionism in V’Yoel Moshe. (People have done worse things, so we won’t hold it against him.) But even he is stated about the Rebbe and his take on Zionism (and this is a direct quote):
“The Satmar Rav’s treatment of this subject is lengthy, erudite and simply brilliant. One can only be amazed by the breadth and depth of his thinking.”
He is hardly alone from the Rebbe’s ideological opponents. You are a nobody to the Satmar Rebbe, so your take is without meaning. (I don’t say this c’v negatively, but factually.)
Every argument you brought up has been more than upgeshlugt whether you admit it or are in denial. If you fail to see reason with your own two eyes, and perhaps reason does elude you as hard as you try, speak to a Talmid Chochom who is a buki in V’Yoel Moshe and ask him to teach it to you.
Unless you hold yourself greater than all? It is pointless to even debate you on this. Its akin to arguing whether the Torah is Emes or c’v.
Respectfully
Berlin, Regarding your addendum, what I say, I only say respectfully. The language may be tough, but in defense of the Torah that is sometimes necessary. Neverthless, I don’t disrespect you (or anyone) with it. So please don’t look at it that way.
Have you ever heard the Satmar Rebbe, the Brisker Rov, or Rav Amrom Blau Zichronom Tzaddikei Vkodesh L’vrocho zichiso yogen eleinu on this subject? Comparably, my language on this matter is soft and mushy.
“You do realize that there are millions of Jews, of which hundreds of thousands of chareidim, that rely for their safety and security on those who protect them”
you are probably right.
how sad for HaKodesh Barchu
may the darkness of the Golus end soon.
may we be zocha to know who really protects us.
Joseph,
the Rambam as quoted by Zalman says:
“However, it is degrading for a woman to always be outside and on the streets. A man should prevent his wife from doing so. She should go outside once or twice a month, according to the need.”
As I’ve written previously, childcare/ educational/ household tasks require that I do go out nearly every day, and most of my friends with young children do the same (we live in a large frum community in the northeast). This is clearly in excess of the ideal “once or twice a month” advocated by the Rambam.
You’ve noted that the words of the Rambam are not meant to apply only to his time, or to be understood in a figurative sense. The Rambam as quoted here did not make exceptions to say that it’s all right for women to go outside frequently if they are taking their children to the park or for a medical checkup, or if they are taking their children to or from school or buying groceries.
So, once again, here’s my question: Why do you suppose the Gedolim haven’t spoken out against these practices, and given advice on how communities should restructure so that women no longer need to leave their homes frequently to perform these tasks? And if Gedolim have addressed this issue, please share with us the names of the Gedolim & the suggestions they have made, without telling me to consult my LOR.
to joseph…i sure agree with you that “I am nobody compared to the Satmarer rebbe”. I never intimated anything else. What does this have to do with the matter at hand? The original discussion (you mat rememeber) was about women and waging wars. On that, there is a mishnah, a rambam , a chinuch and various commetaries. It was, to some extent, an abstract discussion on that particular item.
When,I imagine, my arguments and the original sources did not agree with your ideas,out of the blue, you brought in Eretz yisroel, the Yidden there and the army.
“mah inyian shemittah eizel har sinai?” You seem to throw in your antagonism to Eretz Yisroel into every discussion ,regardless of what we are talking about. There is a question about making cholent,I think,on this website. You probably could insert an attack on the medinah into that too!
You are a fierce proponent of anti_zionism. So be it. I am a supporter of Zionism and Eretz Yisroel in its present form. The fact that the satmarer rebeb zz’l was against it is “loh maaleh velo moirid”. There are plety of other gedolim, no less relevant, who disagree with him. And I am talking about chareidim !!! Not zionists, not even crypto-zionists, as I would like to call them,but dyed-in-the-woll chareidim who would absoutely object to your language.
SO, let’s agree to differ on this matter and try to discuss items based on real sources , not just verbiage.
One last question. You keep on quoting the brisker Rov zz’l. Can you bring me a real sources of how he felt and what he said? I have never seen anythin authoratative on that. Till I see it, the satmarer rebbe’s words are ‘daas jochid”. gut shabbos.
aht h e sadi? I have never seen anything apporaching what you seem to
anon,
Shulchan Orach did not specify, as did Rambam, the number of times. Perhaps Shulchan Orach is more lenient and we follow Shulchan Orach.
Shulchan Orach simply says “A woman should not go outside much. The beauty of a woman is to stay inside – “Kol Kevudah…””
And I will once again refer you to YOUR LOR. He is most suited to address YOUR situation.
Berlin, per your request above I present –
Rav Chaim Soloveichik of Brisk:
Dear Rabbi Moshe Carpas:
I have also read your words in connection with the sect of the Zionists who are now powerfully banded together. I do not blush to admit that I do not know how to find paths to oppose them.
Seeing that these men are known as evil in their localities, and have already proclaimed their purpose, which is to uproot the fundamentals of our faith, and to take over all Jewish communities to aid them in their plan.
It is hardly credible that after the revelations of their arrogant hearts there should still be found right-minded men willing to ally themselves with them. It is greatly astonishing throughout the whole Jewish People that they should be given a place and a voice in public affairs, since it is known they are causing others to sin.
Let the people guard their souls lest they join them in the destruction of our religion and become an obstacle to the House of Israel.
_____
“The Zionists do not make Jews heretics in order to have a state, they want a state in order to make Jews into heretics!”
_____
“The Jewish people have suffered many (spiritual) plagues — the Sadducees, Karaites, Hellenisers, Shabbatai Zvi, Enlightenment, Reform and many others. But the strongest of them all is Zionism.”
_____
“If you intend to give a coin to the Jewish National Fund, give it to another idolatry, but not to the Zionists, since this idolatry is worse then any other.”
_____
“[Zionists] want a state in order to make Jews into heretics. “
______________________________________
Reb Yitzchok Zev Soloveitchik (the Brisker Rav):
“The Zionists have attacked the center point of Judaism.”
_____
_____
When asked: aren’t we to pray for them, in order they should repent from their evil ways? He replied: three times a day in the prayer against the atheists we pray that they should be destroyed.
i dont know why you bother, joseph
Would SOMONE please explain how woman going or not going to war would prove anything about tznius, Who said woman not going to war (assuming that they dont) has anything to do with tznius, maybe its just because they are generaly (but of course not always) physicly weaker and more emotinal (or have a harder time concealing there emotians) then men and all around just not really as cut out for physical fighting and killing as guys are esspecialy in the days of chazal
Feivel,
Thanks.
I wonder the same thing myself. It helps to hear it from you.
joseph. last time I looked, R”Chaim Brisker zz’l was niftar in 1920. The medinah was founded in 1948. Enough said.
As far as R’velvel’s words, last time I looked, he and his whole mishpocho found refuge in the “evil medinah” AFTER PARTITION.
As far as the last statement, as you well know, the gemoro in berochos says “yitamu chatoim min hooretz”. The brocho of velamalshinim was made by Shmuel hakoton for a very special purpose. Go chek your gemoro.
Berlin,
Feivel is right.
(P.S. I just provided you what you asked for above. “One last question. You keep on quoting the brisker Rov zz’l. Can you bring me a real sources of how he felt and what he said?”)
Henceforth I shall defer to Feivel’s suggestion.
joseph, you are right in saying that you brought me down some quotations from the brisker Rov zz”. so, you have complied with my original request.
However, I still have not heard or seen that the Brisker Rov zz’l agreed withe Satmarer rebbe zz’l on his shittoh. I sure have no problems with the first quotation and I daresay that they second remark (about partition) was made before the War.
The third remark , I’ll leave to others ro decide which approach to follow.
And, in essence, you and feivel are right. None of us two will be persuaded by the other. Gut shabbos
joseph, you wanted to know where i got that women throughout th egaes worked outside their home. its a gemora, probably one you never learned, as it isnt in the first 10 blat of any given mesechta most yeshivas learn.
Kesubbos daf 59b is a start. as well as more recently maaseh ish which is on the words and teaching of the chazon ish. in volume one on page 16. go look it up.
but of course you wont, because you like to keep your head in the sand, band everything, and look the other way as judaism goes to heck in a hand-basket. as long as you have your talibanic views put on others, you are fine.
you are what is wrong with our religion. you and this clown luft ( the ban guy who wants to ban all music that bends sound, which would be all music in the world, so no more davening with a nusach, because sound by definition is bent air waves) deserve each other. go move your families onto an island, and leave our religion alone.
mariner, Refuah Shelamo. Provide us your and your mothers name and we’ll all add you in refuanu.
There is NOTHING wrong with our religion. The Torah (and by extension the Jewish religion) IS PERFECT.
Mariner:
I was just browsing through your comments on this subject, and others, and you come across clumsily as a klutz. Unless, in the unlikely event, you actually have something intelligent to say please spare us the drivel.
joseph, you are right, nothing is wrong with our religion, just you! you do not in any way shape matter or form represent anything given to moshe rabeinu at har sinai.
chachom, i know it is hard to follow, because you probably went to the same yeshiva as joseph, where reading comprehension is not taught.
mariner – count me as having gone to that same yeshiva too. I too believe in shulchan orach. I too don’t think our religion is outdated. I too believe that no part of our Torah has become irrelevant. I too believe that tznius today is no less relevant that it was 2000 years ago.
Its too bad you don’t believe in these Torah values. Maybe its time for you to get off your liberal high horse and return to your religious roots.
rabbiofberlin, Brisk is FAMOUS for being extremely anti-zionist. They oppose zionism. They oppose army service. They oppose national service. They oppose participation if the parliament (in fact they are against voting in the Israeli elections altogether). They refuse to take money from the State for their Yeshivos (that they are legally entitles too). The Brisker Rov (Reb Velvel) was VERY good friends with the Satmar Rebbe (Reb Yoel). So which position are you unsure of if they are the same as Satmar?
(BTW mariner, you seem to get in feuds with everyone around you. Think about that for a few moments. Maybe your positions are so far out of bounds for religious Judaism that you would be better off taking them elsewhere.)
To chuck schwab…You say, “brisk is famous for….’ followed by a litany of statements. This may inded be true or not true..Can you provide me with actual written quotations or statements? I know many so-called briskers and I have never heard anything even close to what you are saying. Did Reb velvel even sign a “kruz’ NOT to vote? If yes, this should be easily verified. Please provide written sources.
I am not sure what friendahip has to do with all this. R”Josef Chaimm Sonnnefeld zz’l was very friendly with Rav Kook.He sure disagreed with him on his ideas.
If you think that reb velvel zz’l agreed with the Satmarer shittah, please provide written confirmation.
chuck schwab, the fight ws with 3 peaple, all who have no clue what they are talking about. they keep saying the exact same thing over and over, so i will too. as for fighting with everyone, these people are fighting with probably a majority of ehrliche yiden. i am trying to be their spokesperson. my wife dresses extremely tzniusdik, but i do see that there are other rabbonim besidse my own who may hold very differently.
i never said tznius is outdated. chas vesholom. itsoutdated like shabbos is outdated, and like kashrus is outdated.
what i did say is, that what tznius means changes. it is well known that when the torah gives vague halachos the reason is that the rabbonim of that time are supposed to figure out what works for their generation. gedarim are set up to protect those mitzvos. nowhere in halacha does it say that elbows must be covered. the bone of the upper arm (forearm) and upper leg (thigh) must be covered. now there is a MACHLOKES wheter this includes the knee and elbow, due to the ball and socet configuration of the bones. this is a fact that is disputable. there is a machlokes, and a rov for his followers may choose which way he wants to lead them.
as far as colors and tightness, too tight is a problem according to all. but here in lies the problem, what is too tight. everyone will have a differant opinion. where you might think its no longer too tight, and is now permissible, a jew in bnei brak might disagree. what the jew in bnei brak thinks is permissible, a 7th generation yerushalmi might think is not tznius.
this again is fact. not fiction like others here may want to believe. just because i wont tow the line that all that are differant are poshei yisroel begufun is stupidity in its utmost degree.
when did judaism becaome about stifling discussion, and shoving ideas down others throats. as long as the person wearing clothing is being given hadrocha by a rov, he is in no differatn shape to the rebono shel olam as you or anyone else. the rotzon hashem is to better oneself, and not to copy others. the rotzon hashem is to get a rov, and have him help you better yourself, not look at yenim and copy what he does, because that just leads to mirroring, and you are the same person inside.
if you disagree with that, then im sorry, but you are the one who is so far out of bounds with judaism, religious or not, and you should take your comments elsewhere. i for one and staying right here, and will comntinue until someone here gets the point that there are rabbonim out there that are just as qualified as theirs who hold things differently. if just one gets the point, ill be happy.
TO Ujm, Mariner, Joseph and all you pepole who say tznius hasnt changed in 2000 years, tznius depends on what is considerd pritzusdick in the time and place were you are: 2000 yrs ago woman walked around barefoot or in sandels you would probaly hold that is ossur today. If there was a style that is accteptable to jewish woman today for arguments sake black stockings (this is not a real example) that started being worn specifcly by harlots and the like I think you would agree that it would be ossur for jewish woman to wear them even though it was fine before, and not only that but it also makes sense that the gedolim of today would write tshuvas saying its ossur that would still be around after this style stopped being worn by harlots ect. and it wouldnt be pritzusdick anymore. so to only assur things that wernt ossur before for resons that wernt nogeia before and not be “motter” for the same reason just dosnt seem to make much sense…. somthing to think about
Mariner sorry didnt mean to include your name there
Joseph,
Notwithstanding your quotes from Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik, and his son Rabbi Yitzchok Zev Soloveitchik, an older son, Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik, joined Mizrachi. Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik’s son, Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik, became the head of Mizrachi.
Regarding pants, the religious Zionist kibbutz movement explicitly *permit* pants for women. You and your rabbis may disagree with the ruling, but they are a legitimate part of the worldwide Torah community, and therefore their opinion must be accepted as valid, and the members of that community may rely on it.
One question on something that was mentioned quite a bit before about colors…. what is so tzniyus about wearing all black? Many times I have walked in the street and saw just one or two women wearing all black and they attracted more attention then those wearing lighter colors (not bright, but colors nonetheless…pastels for example). People look towards that which is different. If the population is wearing black, then wear that. But if the average person is wearing colors, dont stand out and wear 100% black!!!
charlie, those Rabbis were not Briskers. (Just related to them.)
Regarding pants, you could find a heter to whatever you want if you look hard enough. I’ve heard of so-called heterim from everything like uncovered hair, pants, mini-skirts… pick and choose Judaism. Heck, I’m sure you could find a heter to eat treif and be mechallel shabbos. Oh wait, the Reform and Conservative were already matir all that.
000646 and charliehall, welcome to the discussion. finally some people with some seichel in here.
chuck schwab: finding heterim is in no way pick and chose judaism, no differant then you going and finding every machmir. pick and chose would be going to differant rabbis to get differant psakim. as long as one rabbi is the one you ask you are absolutely fine. this is actual halacha, not made up stuff like looking in meforshim and seeing what is assur, and paskening that way. an am haaretz can pasken everything is chamur. it takes a rabbi of ggod character and knowledge to be a meikel.
To be honest, I haven’t read most of the posts on this thread, but I happened to come across a few. The original poster seems to have just been writing something harmless about tznius, and 10 pages later, all I’m reading is the hostility everyone has for each other, and how much this post is being blown out of proportion.
I actually read a few other threads here in the coffee room, and no matter how innocent the post is, it always seems to turn into drama.
We obviously don’t all agree on the same things, but can’t we be a little more respectable and sensitive towards one another? We can argue our views, but why do people have to bash each other in doing so?
As for the topic of this post, I believe modest dressing has a lot to do with where you live. We obviously all know the simple definition of modesty, but there is a more complex definition in the Jewish sector of the world, and that’s where many of us disagree on. I have my personal (deeper) opinion of what I consider tznius, but I’m not going to elaborate on that, for I have just joined this group, and don’t feel comfortable about it yet.
I’ve avoided posting in this topic for a while, but I think its time to put my 2 cents in.
Just because its not a halachic psak that YOU hold by, doesnt make it wrong. If you follow a real Rabbi who gives you a psak then you are fine. FYI – my friend, whos family is yeshivish and follows a yeshivish Rabbi, asked him abotu wearing pants. He said there was nothing wrong with loose fitting pants, especially if she were snowboarding and it were safer, just that most people nowadays dont so she shouldnt just wear pants in the neighborhood because it goes against the community. I’m not saying that is a psak for everyone, just that is what she got from her Rabbi.
Many items on the OP’s list was more opinion than hard halacha. If thats the way your Rabbi tells you to live your life then that is fine, just dont look down on people who hold differently and dont shove things down other people’s throats. [Shoving things down others throats is something this generation really needs to learn about]
There are many debates on what/how women have to keep tznius…read all the sources! Follow what your Rabbi tells you but remember, there is always someone out there who is more or less machmir than you. That doesnt make them any less or more observant, just not what you do.
I think its much easier to say “Its all treif” or “If you dont follow this you are like the reform and conservative” just because you dont agree with a psak. But you are not a better person because you cover more than is obligated by halacha or choose to be more stringent. And honestly, that seems to be what I am taking from this thread.
I haven’t read everything here, so it’s possible this has already been covered…but…what about standards of modesty for MEN?
JewishFem, since women have no yetzer hara (especially feminists), tznius is not necessary for men.
pashuteh
tznius is for everyone, this is pashuteh
takes different forms, meanings and importance between men and women however.
and also pashuteh
women most certainly have a yetzer hara. Gittin and Kiddushin are filled with it.
you are probably referring to the statement of Chazal that they have no yetzer hara to be mvatal learning Torah.
Jewishfeminist, one of – to me at least – the most effective approaches to teaching tznius focuses on the meaning of the pasuk in Micha, walk humbly with Hashem. This applies to men too, yes?
Only kidding, can’t you tell?
sorry pashuteh
i dont really keep track of screen names and what they say and seem to be,
so sarcasm is quite difficult for me to to detect.
do you think maybe jewish feminist is also just kidding? maybe i misunderstood her posts also.
i hope so.
Of course pashuteh was joking… can’t you tell by now?!?!?
Yes men have tznius too- some communities more steringent then others.
But truth is women have more stringent halachos- not to make women more tied up but because a woman is created as more attractive and can cause cheit. Take your “feminist” views and read it as you want- maybe it makes a woman more powerful maybe it makes her more special but it makes it that tznius is HER main mitzva as learning is for men. True men got tznius rules also just it’s not necessarily their essence (Torah is) while by women it is their essence.
i thought this topic was closed!
most ppl think tznius is wat your wearing that assumption is 100% incorecct your whole life revolves around modesty the way we speak act and dress its very scary but if someone is not careful to dress modestly and not ostentatious the punishments that come from that r unfathomable ppl who will hear this will probably put wat i say down cuz they dont want to believe it but its all true its brought down in sefarim
What suraschier wrote in the original post of this thread, is so true and relevant for every one of us.
TO Ujm,Joseph and all you pepole who say tznius hasnt changed in 2000 years, tznius depends on what is considerd pritzusdick in the time and place were you are: 2000 yrs ago woman walked around barefoot or in sandels you would probaly hold that is ossur today.
If there was a style that is accteptable to jewish woman today for arguments sake black stockings (this is not a real example) that started being worn by non jewish girls just to show that they are hefker I think you would agree that it would be ossur for jewish woman to wear them even though it was fine before,
and not only that but it also makes sense that the gedolim of today would write tshuvas saying its ossur that would still be around after this style stopped being worn by non jewish girls for that reason.
However once the black stockings stop showing hefkeirus there would be no reason not to wear them any more.
so to only assur things that wernt ossur before for reasons that wernt nogeia before and are nogeia now and not be “motter” for the same reason just dosnt seem to make much sense…. somthing to think about
000: If you keep reposting the same comment another 5 times on this thread + at least on another 3 threads, maybe it’ll magically become so.
charliehall/mariner, Rav Kook prohibited pants. So if you’re going to try to justify it with religious zionists, you’ll have to stick with your story, since Rav Kook is who the religious zionists claim to hold by. (Rav Kook btw was extremely machmir when paskening tznius issues. Look at his teshuvas.)
Thanks suraschier for starting this discussion and providing that handy guide we can printout as a constant reminded (its really needed!)
how long could/should an unmarried women/girl’s hair length be? any ideas???
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